Very very interesting.
Peppers: "If offered (#2 jersey), I'm not gonna turn it down"
to earn it first. Blake deserves it now.
What have you seen out of Blake that he deserves the #2 jersey? He's good...but not great yet. I think you have to be pretty damn good to deserve a jersey a 2 time all american wore.
Maybe first team all B1G and tied for conference lead in interceptions in second full year of playing after coming off a torn ACL? Or maybe that's just me...
YEah, that is just you. Not good enough yet...
Peppers will be the highest ranked and hyped recruit for Michigan in a decade. Countess should get the deuce next year, then on to Peppers in '15. Countess has been legit.
Why would you give it to a kid one year and then take it away from him the next year when he isn't graduating? That would be such a smack in the face to countess
Well, I don't know Blake's situation, but he's going to be a redshirt Junior next year, so it will be his fourth year in college. He could be on the track to graduate after next year and perhaps be on the path to the NFL.
Blake is not near good enough to consider leaving a year early for the NFL. I love Blake, but I wouldnt consider him a "lock-down" corner by any means. He may have had 6 picks this year, but he is not on the level of past corners like Marlin Jackson and Leon Hall.
Interceptions aren't everything, but Jackson had 3, 3, 2, and 1 interceptions in his career for a total of 9. And that was generally with more talent around him than I think Countess has now. Now, Jackson had the versatility to play safety and was a first round pick, but as a college player, I'm not sure he was that much better than Countess.
Marlin Jackson was an All-American.. so yeah, he was pretty good. Once Blake gets in that conversation we can start making comparisons.
Nobody's claiming Marlin Jackson wasn't good. But statistically, he and Countess aren't far off. The only year he arguably had better stats than Countess was his sophomore year in 2002, when Jackson had 51 tackles, 5 tackles for loss, 1 sack, 3 interceptions (1 TD), and 15 pass breakups. With one game left, Countess has 42 tackles for loss, 2 tackles for loss, 6 interceptions (1 TD), and 4 pass breakups. He tied for #4 nationally in interceptions and was #3 in return yardage. Jackson's junior and senior seasons didn't feature great numbers.
So I'm putting them in the same conversation, whether you think they belong together or not. Just because Marlin Jackson played 10 years and we're nostalgic about him doesn't mean he was automatically better than Countess.
its hard to argue corners and safeties by the numbers... since we all know Jackson's junior and senior numbers were down because he wasn't being thrown at...
Countess wasn't thrown at a ton, either.
Boubicar Cissoko was a 5 star too wasn't he? Now I know he's NOWHERE near the stud peppers is...but... cmong man...u gotta EARN it. Glad they didn't just give it to him!!
Ahh, I always love being reminded of that kid. So much hype. Such a train wreck.
Yea, keep changing kids numbers throughout their careers. Why stick with one thing for too long? We should change coaches too.
I think Blake should keep wearing 18. If not, then he ought to take 22, as he is reminiscent of one Ty Law.
I guess we have to wait for an all-time great player to be an all-time great player as an underclassman and then decide to return for his senior year before we give out the #1 or #2 jerseys...because that happens all the time. Remember when Charles Woodson came back for his senior year?
These numbers should be recruiting tools as well as rewards. They also should be tacit inspiration for the wearers not to screw up off the field while representing those numbers.
That is the dumbest arguement when we're talking about JERSEY numbers (A.I. "practice" voice)
Just retire the number because chances are...no one is ever going to be Charles Woodson ever again. That's why Charles Woodson was Charles Woodson!!! No one was ever Charles Woodson BEFORE he did what he did.
I wouldn't give a damn if Countess or Peppers wore #2. Hell maybe it'll raise their games.
Doesn't make any sense, but it's been crazy how whoever wears #21 ends up having the best year of his career. We're on one hell of a streak with that number. That said, I really don't care what number guys are wearing...just play better and win championships.
If #2 is going to get Peppers to Michigan, give it to him. Who gives a shit. It doesn't blemish Woodson one bit.
And Shawn Crable.........
...why? It's a fucking jersey. It's not some mystical Thing for which you need special qualifications. Hell, Vincent Smith wore it for four years. Never heard him complain about "making his own legacy."
We need to hold on to this kid...bad.
Blake deserves it?? o_O
Blake has been very up and down. He makes some great plays ala Marlin Jackson/Leon Hall, but then turns around and gets toasted a few plays later.
Many people will have a perception of Blake being elite because of the INT's, and he is solid indeed, but not elite. He could become elite - he has 2 years left. But in no way is he deserving of the #2 jersey right now.
I do have to say that he at the very least met my expectations (probably slightly exceeded) based on the year he had directly coming off the injury he recovered from. I think he very well may reach that 'elite' status next year. We will have to wait and see.
I get the feeling some of you are waiting for a unanimous All-American underclassman to announce a return for his senior year before you're willing to give out the #1 or #2 jersey.
Is that too much to ask for? This is Michigan fergodsakes!
Everyone could make their own legacies...
Gallon at 10
Gardner at 12 was unique
Funchess at... 18? I think it was 18. That was baller for a TE.
Kovaks at 32 (granted, he only wore 11 for like, 1 game)
... I just think that Peppers should choose whatever jersey number he wants/is available. Like, if he wants to be #13. go for it. make that his legacy. or #20 or #3 or whatever...
And didn't vincent smith wear #2... it isnt a legacy jersey thing is it?
to keep 19.
Who wouldn't want to wear Stevie Y's number?
19 was awesome and reminded me of Yzerman. Two negatives with the legacies. Kids can't make their own legacy, and can never live up to those who left them. How are you going to compare Devin Gardner to Tom effing Harmon lol.
Stevie Y was a great player but not all Michigan fans root for Detroit teams....
I do root for Detroit teams, and I never even made the Yzerman connection. Different sport.
Hoke said something like "after Smith, the #2 will go to an elite defensive back"
Peppers said he wants to be BETTER than Woodson. What better way than to take his number and make it his?
to honor the past and the present.
How many number could there possibly be for players to make their own? There are only 99.
Michigan is creating a great tradition about how they use their numbers and giving players something to strive for. It's really, really cool and very innovative.
I love it.
I hope they make 0 and 00 legal numbers some day.
I think it would look pretty cool.
As did Crable
He played after Woodson right?
I don't understand how this is different than #1 tradition we all love
why is expanding it bad?
Because nobody wears #1 anymore, and the longer the number remains unused, the higher the criteria seem to get.
Denard wore 16, so did John Navarre.
Braylon wore 1, AC wore 1, David Terrell wore 1. We don't get them mixed up.
Desmond wore 21, as did Biakabutuka.
Repeat numbers happen, but the legacies remain distinct.
And quite a few outstanding OTs have worn #77.
but is this really surprising? I mean...why would he turn it down?
I can think of several reasons to not want to be singled out like that.
Between the natural hype that his talent draws and the statements he's made, I'm not sure he can get much more singled out than he will be already.
Wait, so does this mean he's committing to the Giants????
I thought Peppers was flipping to Bama.
/s (I hope)
Simple explanation - Bama is now copying are jersey number tradition.
McCarron will be wearing #98 next week.
Oh okay. Thanks for the info.
And after Saban goes to Texas Alabama is going to poach Hoke. He won't walk there, mind you, but with that Alabama money he can take a limo all the way to Tuscaloosa.
Our you ok?
This kid likes the spotlight. His career will be closely followed...
For the record, I wouldn't turn it down either.
WHY DOESN'T ANYBODY WANNA BUILD THEIR OWN LEGACIES?!? The Legends idea sounded cool to start, but now it seems pretty stupid. (Excuse the caps lock)
Ummm because they can build their own legacy regardless of the number they wear
I think the real thing to take from this is that he has been talking to Moe Ways and seems solid to Michigan.
If Peppers wants the #2, I say give it to him.
By the way, was there an issue with Treadwell and Michigan's #1 jersey? I always wonder about it every time I catch an Ole Miss game.
The issue with Treadwell was Ole Miss funneling some cash his way.
I know he's a highly heralded recruit and might be the most talented HS football player to come through this school in a long time. But I don't care if he's a 5-star phenom or a walk-on: you'd better damn well earn the right to wear that jersey.
Woodson is Woodson. Earn the right to wear #2. Not that I think Peppers has a sense of entitlement, but I just feel like sometimes that we're handing out these legends jerseys just for the sake of handing them out.
This whole earn it crap is what has kept that great #1 off the field for almost a decade now.
Anthony Carter was given #1 because he was a prized recruit and Bo made it a point to give it to him. McMurtry came in and wore it. Derrick Alexander switched to it after McMurtry graduated. David Terrell walked right in and received it.
The only one that it didn't work out for was Butterfield.
Roll the dice again and give it to Drake Harris (provided he makes it here, qualifies, signs yada yada the whole 9 yards).
Come on. It totally worked out for me.
Ways will be better than Harris. You heard it here first (well maybe not first). That is not a knock on Harris, but Ways is legit.
superior talent right now. Highlight film was incredible (just not sure about quality of opposition). If the opponents were legit, then he showed top 5 talent. His excitement for football also indicates he will grind and get even better.
Biggest concern with Drake is the injury. Even partial hamstring tears can linger and flare up persistently - especially for a deep threat guy.
Net, Moe will immediately make an impact and could be a beast.
I don't know about the competition level overall, but there's at least one clip in Way's highlights where the CB (playing right up on the line!!) looked like a 12 year old. I think he's good, but that type of production against high-level competition would make him a 5 star.
give it to Funchess, then Butt
then whoever, I don't care
But the #1 meant no more at Michigan than it did anywhere else until after Anthony Carter had worn it.
The #1 meant no more at Michigan than it did anywhere else until Lloyd Carr and Braylon Edwards invented and publicised a convenient fiction as a motivational tool, and Mr. Edwards continued to cling to that fiction for reasons that are frankly indistiguishable from self-glorification. If Mr. Peppers comes to Michigan, he has "earned" the #2--or any other number that he wants and the coaching staff agrees to give to him.
I wouldn't say that. It's been worn exclusively by wide receivers since AC was here. No one had to earn it before Braylon, but there was a mystique around it already (which is probably why Braylon wanted it).
This statement is ridiculously untrue as to the number 1 jersey. Anthony Carter wore it and made it a legend (without the patch). Since that time, it has been worn, I believe, exclusively by wideouts. Most often by the "best" wideout on the team. Not always, but most of the time. For those who remember, Braylon was a very talented dude, who needed some motivation. HE wore, I think, 81 or 86 prior to the 1. Lloyd Carr offered him the number 1 jersey if he could live up to it. He worked Hard. He dedicated himself. He did the mostly right things off the field, and he "earned" the jersey number. The fact that Lloyed used it to have a very talented player become a great one, was genius. It had the effect of, for Braylon, making an already important number even more important. That was amplified after Braylon left when he started, I believe, an endowment scholarship for the number 1 jersey.
Braylon was #80.
George Campbell?! Aka lil MEGATRON.
and more realistically, impossible to fill. Woodson is the best athlete and football player we will (more than likely) ever see in the winged helmet in our lifetimes.
... or something.
Doesn't he have to graduate from Michigan to get that? Maybe I'm wrong.
graduates. He has done more then most football graduates have for the school.
Or they will retire it when Hoke believes someone has achieved it.
I'm personally not a fan of the legacy jersy thing. I'd like to see Peppers make #5 a jersey for the ages. And as others have pointed out; #2 has been worn by a bunch of players since Woodson. I mean #6 is an iconic jersey to me(Wheatley of course); but there's always a number 6.
Give Peppers whatever he wants.
I'm glad the rumors of him decommited have stopped for the most part. They were far fetched imo anyway unless Hoke was to be fired which is definately was never happening. I also think Peppers will start opposite of Countess on defense starting from day 1. Face it, Raymon Taylor isn't very good. He has the best running away from a tackle impression.
??? Raymond Taylor is a very good corner.
Autocorrect like a mug. Raymon*
went on Taylor looked pretty good. He used to be a liability but that's our safeties.
was very good when not injured.
Raymon Taylor isn't very good? So it's safe to assume you haven't watched any of the games this season?
Are you sure Raymon Taylor isn't very good? Or are you just making things up?
This kid will win a few ballgames for us next year. He is that good. He is worthy of all the hype and the most talented player to potentially pick Michigan ever out of high school.
aggression and moxie to make a handful of game-changing plays. DB, kick/punt returning, flanker - he will get on the field immediately if Hoke is serious about winning championships.
Other than Ryan, D has 10 solid guys but no game-changers.
Blake countess led the big ten in interceptions, one year after tearing his ACL. I would consider him something of a game changer. But yeah, I get what you mean. There is no one on the D that opposing offenses need to account for on every play.
I don't get it when people say stuff like this. Didn't teams avoid throwing at Countess for the most part, except a couple long passes? Didn't Raymon Taylor make a bunch of tackles partly because teams kept throwing at him instead of Countess? And despite that, didn't Countess still lead the conference in interceptions? If he's not a game changer, then there aren't any game changing defensive backs in the Big Ten.
Get outta here!
We shall see. YouTube videos make a lot of guys look like superman. I don't doubt he has great potential but people need to dial back their expectations and re-evaluate after he plays a down of D-I COLLEGE football.
for having the first CB since Woodson that QBs will be legitamately afraid of
QBs were afraid of throwing at Jackson, Hall, and now Countess. Even if you don't believe me about Hall and Jackson, I'm pretty sure B1G QBs were not fond of throwing the ball to the side of the field being covered by a guy who went in the first round of the NFL draft.
for having the first CB since Woodson that QBs will be legitamately afraid of
Happened to that kid?
Why not be like the buckeyes and have 2 #1 jerseys out there so one can throw punches and one can stay out on the field
We are missing the obvious rant worthy aspect of his comments. Someone please explain to Mr. Peppers that we are not "Big Blue"! Does this mean he's flipping to Ketucky? /s
It means he's going straight to the NY Giants.
The old "you gotta earn it" at Michigan thing again. Boy, Braylon Edwards sure loves this board.
Aside from #1 or #2, the rest should have remained retired. Let someone wearing their own number create a legacy for that number rather than forcing them to switch numbers that was worn by someone else.
But let's concentrate on getting to campus first and doing your thing on the field and in the classroom Jabrill!
Those two things are in no way mutually exclusive.
Give it to him...
Since Braylon put restrictions on the 1, players have to earn it and no one has. Let's face it, there will never be another Charles Woodson. Let players wear it when they want it.
Our fan base is ridiculous about the past. Want to know what's better than a player who played her 16 years ago, the team that is there right now. I'm so tired of living in the past, give Peppers the 2 and let him make some new memories, because he's going to be something special.
I'd rather see him wear #5 his entire career and create a legacy there.
Whatever it takes to get him on the field
Me too. If he's that confident in his ability...stick with the 5 and make your own legacy!!
Then we can sell two GREAT numbers to future recruits.
I'm okay with making players earn it, but the standards for "earning it" are too high. Don't want to give it to him as a freshman? That's fine. But Blake Countess has done enough to earn the #2, Jeremy Gallon did enough to earn the #1 for this year, etc.
The #1 is slowly fading. #21 is all the rage as of late. You can thank Braylon for that one as he basically has retired #1 with his BS.
[I'll rephrase this - I am sick of the simplistic and idiotic Braylon-bashing over the #1.] One could also say that RR basically retired the #1 by trying to give it out to a non WR in a freshman DB named JT Floyd. It was pretty simple to give it to the best WR on the team. Perhaps Braylon should not have reacted the way he did, but RR should have at least tried to stick by the rules set in the #1 scholarship given by Braylon. They are not that stringent.
Read Three & Out, please.
He didn't know about the #1 and nobody was willing to teach him.
I'm not trying to start one of "those" conversations, but seriously.
Three & Out is your gospel, not mine. It's one guy's take. Seriously. Resorting to that is simply akin to religious rationalization. You are taking one guy's word as gospel.
And even more seriously - that RR didnt know aobut the #1 says a lot about how much he did his homework. Further, that nobogy was willing to teach him just sounds like a juvenile rationalization (like many other of RR's statements): "Um, um, (sniffle, sniffle) I wanted to learn, I really wanted to learn, but nobody would teach me (sniffle, sniffle; cues up Josh Groban). They were mean to me. And I didnt know how to look things up myself!"
"It was pretty simple to give it to the best WR on the team."
Like Greg McMurty in 1986? Oh wait... he was 4th on the team in receptions, 2nd in yards receiving.
Like Derrick Alexander in 1990? The distant second best receiver on the team behind Desmond Howard...
Like Tyrone Butterfield in 1994? When he never even saw the field... Or 1995 and 1996 where he caught all 4 receptions he had for his career...
Like David Terrell in 1998 - where he was the 6th receiver on the team.
Generally it wasn't given to the best receiver on the team in the past - just A receiver.
Generally you read a comment for what it says, not what for what you want it to say. Where in my statement did I say it was always given to the best WR on the team? That was not the standard in the past - everybody knows that. Everybody. But it is the standard in the present. Generally, and typically in every case, the past is not the present.
"Where in my statement did I say it was always given to the best WR on the team? That was not the standard in the past - everybody knows that. Everybody. But it is the standard in the present."
Evidence strongly suggests otherwise.
The standard in the present seem to be "give it to no one, not even the best receiver on the team".
You are correct, I misspoke. The standard was not in the past that the #1 went to a potentially great WR. But that is the standard now. The point you tried to make above is still inapplicable.
I agree with this. There needs to be a mixture of earning it and giving it out. In my opinion, the #1 and #2 should be on the field every season. It up to the coaches to coach up a kid to deserve it, and its up to the kid to play for it. But - and this is most important - who gets it will be relative to who is currently on the team, not who used to be on the team.
I don't necessarily believe that it should be given it out every year. For example, who was good enough to represent the #1 in 2008 and 2009? But I think Roundtree could have earned it with his 2010 season, and I think Gallon should have earned it last year.
Well, yes, Gallon did earn it. But, he was given the Desmond Howard honorary jersey, which is both more fitting for him, and you know there is no way that Michigan is going to award a kid a new honorary jersey and then take him out of it. That's Brandon's baby.
Also, the 1, at least as I understand it, actually has a endowment from Braylon. I suspect that Braylon expects input into its award. I would think that one of our receivers now here, or in the incoming class, might well be given that jersey as a junior or senior.
I would also think that Brandon has discussed a legacy jersey with Braylon. Personally, I sort of hope there isn't one. Or, at least if there is, that it bear A.C.'s name, since he was the genesis for the number in the first place.
Why is the #21 more fitting for Gallon than the #1?
Just guessing at the intent there maybe.
Hmph. I guess he wants to hand out jersey numbers based on body shape.
Because he's about the same size as Desmond. I grant you that Gallon has not been the special teams wizard that Desmond was. I guess it "feels" that way, primarily because of his size. I may be proving myself wrong, since I also suggested if there is a number 1 legend, it ought to be A.C., and Gallon is probably a lot more like A.C. than he is like Braylon.
That said, there is no way that Gallon would have had the 21 jersey "revoked" in favor of 1 for hte reasons above.
Yeah, they've got to straighten out the whole #1 and legacy jersey thing. The #1 is special, but not a leagacy. Or is it, just not officially? This why I think the #1 needs to be given out every year, and make the player picked relative to who is on the team then and there, not to who used to be on the team (making it a legacy thing).
How can you possibly say no one has earned it. Jeremy Gallon would like a word with you.
I think Jeremy Gallon is the best receiver we have had since Braylon, he deserved the 1. Since Braylon went nuts, it hasn't been handed out. Has Jeremy earned the 1? Yeah. Has he gotten it? No.
When I was playing sports back in the day, I always wanted the numbers of the players I really liked, Jordan, Grant Hill, Barry Sanders. If someone else got it before me, I didn't wear it. This whole passing out numbers to special players is silly. A freshman wants number 2, sit him down and talk about the legacy and end it with time to go make your legacy.
This. It's only a number. As long it's nothing downright unethical or illegal then they need to do it.
Bad recruiting strategy. If you promise it to one guy, what does that mean to other guys you are recruiting for the same position? You dont promise a recruit the jersey itself. You promise them the ability to compete for it.
All the fuss over Braylon. Yada yada yada. The University of Michigan has an 8 year 60 million dollar deal with Adidas. If the coaches want them to stitch a #1 jersey, Adidas will stitch a #1 jersey and someone will wear it despite "Braylon's antics."
Shouldn't there be a pre-game ceremony like #21 and #98 had? So you bring in Woodson for App. State and give it straight to a Frosh?
Wait until the MSU game next year...he can wear #5 for a little while.
if I was a freshman or a sophomore. Once a junior/senior I'd tell the coaches that it would be a great honor, but I want to finish with my own number.
The important part of this, to me, is that, perhaps, the reference to Moe Ways talking sense to Peppers may indicate that he does not intend to take those other visits after all. Maybe I missed something earlier to this effect. Let's hope so.
1.) Re-reitre all of the Legends jerseys.
2.) Give out Legends jerseys to seniors on homecomming.
3.) Seniors who were awarded Jerseys get a Legends patch on their standard jersey for the rest of the year.
Also, Peppers didnt say "I decided I want to wear the #2" he said " if offered (#2 jersey), Im not gunna turn it down."
Absolutely love this idea
I know that I'm rephrasing what a lot of people have already posted, but I just don't like the Legends Jersey. Let's put aside that our quarterback is wearing the number 98... One of the ways in which we remember great players is by their numbers. Howard 21, Woodson 2, Hart 20, Woodley 56... etc. Now it seems as if our best receiver every year will be #21, and tight end #87, or standout player #98. Let the kids create their own legacies in their own jersey as opposed to putting them in a jersey that represents a player that they'll unlikely ever be as good as. I loved Funchess at #19, Jake Ryan at #90 (I was most upset when this changed), Gardner at #12. Also, if I was a player, I'd like to be remembered by my own jersey and my own legacy left. I also don't think it's fair for guys like Jordan Kovacs, who walked on the team and fought to be a 4 year starter, to be told to change their number for the last 2 or 3 games of his career to represent someone else... That's BS; the only person Kovacs deserved to represent was himself and all the amazing thing he accomplished during his career.
Agreed. I hate the renumbering.
Going back to the Wings for example. I like that Howe, Delvecchio, Yzerman, Sergei, Nick, Hank, Pavel all didn't wear number 9. I have very good memories of 9, 10, 19, 91, 5, 40, 13 and all for their own unique reasons.
I've wondered this year whether 98 was too much of a burden to put on Gardner. Raised the expectations bar too high? I'd much rather see him and all the others create their own legacies.
about the number situation but that tweet makes me feel better. MoWays doing good work.
Does his hashtag mean he's typing his tweet on an IBM computer?
This tweet brings up a good point. Would it help recruiting to make the numbers of recruits' heroes available to incoming players. It appears that the number is a strong pull on peppers. I don't like holding numbers back anyway, and if it brings in recruits, all the more reason to make the 2s, 98s, 21s, etc. available.