Absolutely no need for that. He wants to win, who doesn't?
Patience Needed with whole team and coaching staff
There's nothing wrong with wanting to win.
There's a lot wrong with sounding like an entitled asshole despite being just some fan and not a team member.
There's a lot wrong with saying that anything outside a national title is "sucking."
I think you read into his comment too much... Since 2007 we've been 31-28 (including this year) with some major blowouts as well as constantly losing to Ohio State and Michigan State. Nobody is entitled to wins, but the last couple of years were unacceptable for Michigan and as a fan of Michigan he has the right to be disappointed.
As for your last comment, nobody said or even implied that.
We have lost to Iowa the last three times....Penn State the last three times....MSU four times...and Ohio. This is not the Michigan I once knew and this downward spiral starting showing itself in 2005. We are a second tier big ten school and "little brother". Hoke has his work cut out for him because there isn't anyone on the field that knows how to win a championship let alone how to beat the teams mentioned above.
Once again a good time for me to mention my Chrome extension (linked in my signature!) that allows the hiding/highlighting of different posters! Welcome to my block list!
First off, Hoke is doing a great job...
Coaching and teaching the game are a constant now, and if you can't see that as an upgrade -- I'm sorry, but it's rather obvious. You can see it in the players who are playing, and you can see it as some are clearly getting better, which happens - with good teaching/coaching. You shouldn't get worse, which is something that happened before. We are taking out the pieces that didn't work in past years, but Hoke is forced to fill those spots with freshmen. That sucks, but guess what... We're currently bringing in a top five class this year, and, well, that means this time next year a good chunk of that class will no doubt be in the two deep. Why? Cause they'll have been upgrades over what we use to have, and Hoke will find a way to get those freshmen in there, like he's doing this year. Is that ideal? No. That's just where we are. Transitions go faster the better you recruit -- look at Florida and Texas, two teams in the same boat UM is right now. They'll be back soon.
And that's thanks to coaching and good recruiting!
And that's something we have!
For various reasons, the discussion of which is beyond the scope of this thread, we are in the middle of the second coaching change in four years. Patience is not requested - it is practically required.
I agree with your post but can also see why people are getting a little impatient. The last time we beat a good Big Ten team was in 2007 against Penn State. Wisconsin finished 7-6 in 2008 so I don't count them as a quality win.
Interesting point about Wisky. In 3 years they managed to turn things around nicely.
Us? Another 3 years away assuming we get this class signed.
But I have a lot of impotent rage that is in need of release, and if I can't unleash it on Michigan football or the internet, then where?
the good news is if we play iowa next year and we win it will be soooo much of a better win cause we will sherish it more. same thing with ohio to. its like when you didnt get layed for 3 or 4 years and then when you do your like damn i really sherised that.
Patience.. Yeah, yeah, how long will that take?
Next year may be esp. frustating because we may very well be a better team with a worse record.
This isn't an excuse for this coaching staff but really I'm not going to be too upset with them their first two season. I mean what 95% of the guys playing out there today were Richrod's players. It's kinda of hard to judge a staff without at least seeing their first class as juniors.
And the playcalling isn't what is holding this offense back. People talk all this crap about how we were a top 10 offense last year. What happened we played osu,wisconsin, or msu? Yeah that's not a top 10 offense. We have an offensive line that opens up little to no holes against quality opponents. We have two quarterbacks who don't read the field very well, and one who struggles with any throw over 20 yards. And on top of all that we have slot ninjas playing outside.
Interesting you say that as this is the junior year of RR's first full class.
I wasn't going to respond to any of your posts, but you're theme is infuriating. We understand, you're missing RR, but get over it.
Like someone else said, if you can't see improvement in this team, you're blind. Name one game this year that we weren't competitive in. *Crickets, crickets*. How about last year?
I rest my case.
How many upperclassmen did we have on the team last year?
How many upperclassmen do we have on the team this year?
How much WORSE is the BIG this year than last year?
If we end up 7-5 this year it is a HUGE disaster laid at the feet of the coaches and DB for not letting RR have 1 more year with his players.
This is their first year, and a coach's first year is hard for most coaches--even the most successful ones.
Urban Meyer took over a Ron Zook coached Florida team that had won 7 games and won...9. This is one of the best coaches of the past few decades we're talking about, who subsequently won 2 national championships.
Pete Carroll, another one of the best coaches of the past few decades (scandals aside), took over a 6-6 team and in his first year went...6-6. Then won 2 national championships.
We're still likely to win at least 1 more game, but even if we don't, it really doesn't tell us how successful the coaching staff will be over time.
Sure I'm frustrated, but the future does look bright. We are in games, fighting to the end. The defense is improving and almost like night and day compared to last year. The second half of the year in 2010, Michigan could not count on the defense for much of anything. Sure the offense is struggling at times. But it, too, is improving. We are a couple players and couple plays away from being really good ( or really mediocre if we go the other way). I'm not satisfied with the results--I wish for better outcomes, but I certainly have confidence in the coaches and players.
Btw, did anyone else notice Hoke putting on the headset late in the game? Is that a first for him this year?
I don't think this offense is improving. Sure didn't look like it today. Didn't look like it at MSU.
I've heard the patience meme before....it just wont happen with this fanbase. Might as well accept that now.
to be good, you have to play to win now. Always.
How are the gimmicks on offense helping us win now?
Denard's passing this year v last has seemed to me like what happens when the pro tries to improve the swing of the hacker who plays all the time (& with tons of raw talent in this case). What happens is the hacker's swing was all messed up but he had learned how to sorta make some of the flaws work anyway (mostly by messing up other parts of the swing). Pro comes in & sets some things straight and, in short run, the hackers gets MUCH worse. If sticks with it & eventually gets that pro-advised swing right, he'll be much better for it. But, OW are his drives going to suffer in interim.
Well, that's what Denard's passing looks like to me. It _was_ getting better last year.
Bullshit. Everyone's frustrated with this Offense that we saw score major points last year. There really isn't a good reason for the regression except that the new staff wants to run a new scheme. I've have a hard time believing that Denard just got worse. Through B10 play so far denard only has 70 carries. He needs a minimum of 15 for this O to be effective.
At at times it really feels like Borges would rather have DG and QB an is giving him every opportunity to squeeze him out.
Iowa gave up 28 in junk time after they had taken a large lead. The offense is essentially performing the same this year as it did last year versus better competition.
I feel that term is debatable. This Iowa team is not nearly as good as last year which sent 6 players to the NFL last year. Adrian Clayborn, Christian Ballard, Ricky Stanzi, Karl Klug, Julian Vandervelde, and Tyler Sash are all impact players. The Minnesota team that came to Ann Arbor would have lost to a FCS school like UMass easily just like they lost to North Dakota State and New Mexico. (Yes, I am calling New Mexico a FCS school.) I think 2010 UConn was better than Western this year. Eastern is Eastern and yes last years Indiana and Bowling Green were bad but no one is upset about losing Penn State and Wisconsin off the schedule. I think sparty was slightly better last year despite their padded defensive stats this year from snuffing out FAU, a bad Central team and a offensively handicapped OSU.
While close I feel last year schedule was tougher. Ohio State was better last year than this year so that is yet to come and Michigan moved the ball well against sparty but with two red zone turnovers, one to start the game.
As with anything the truth lies in between but I think this years schedule is easier because the Big Ten merely average and that is being nice. This years conference bowl class may go winless.
Heading into today we were ranked 21st in yards/game (2nd in B10) and offense ranked 15th using FEI (also 2nd in B10). We have beaten up on bad opponents and struggled on the road. Our QB is still throwing head scratching turnovers. I'm sure RR would be doing better but then again that's because these are his players for his system. All things considered, I don't think Borges has done poorly to date, and the story of the season is far from written.
Stealing a philosophy espoused by Bobby Bowden and quoted in Three and Out.
1. You lose big first. Um, maybe that's true when you're building a progam. The University of Michigan football program doesn't need to be rebuilt, thank you very much.
2. You lose close. Yeah, that's where we are right now with tough road games. MSU and Iowa are a combined 12-0 at home. We were within 1 TD late in both games.
3. You win close. At home we definitely win close against decent teams like Notre Dame. We'll hopefully win against NU and O$U too.
4. You win big. We're not there just yet but it's the first year under Hoke.
So we're somewhere between 2-3. I don't see us losing big anytime soon and we are starting to win big against the lightweights (WMU, EMU, SDSU, MINN, NWU, PU).
Coaching may allow us to steal some games. That's true. Unfortunately, it has also definitely caused us to lose two. The offensive playcalling was awful in both losses.
It seems like people are less willing to add a temporal element to their assessments of the program and are favoring a "win now" approach with a staff that has only been on the job since a little after New Year's (many on the staff have less time than that, for obviously the hires took time).
Are we so starved for glory that some are now unwilling to account for the "growing pains" (i.e., games like today) of this staff? Are we not willing to take poor execution and "WTF?" playcalling now and again in their proper context?
Thems a whole lotta fancy pants questions you jus' ax'd there, buddy.
Questions people round here don't make care fer. If'n you know what I mean.
I am wondering where the thoughtful, erudite fanbase I grew up with and knew at school went sometimes....
Give it a shot, folks. What do you want from this staff?
I reckon they all fled over yonder to the hill countries n' such. Right 'bout the time these newfanglers came a rollin' in.
An lemme tell ye'. These new types don't take too kindly to yer existential quanderies, that they don't.
Rather round themselves up a witch burnin' party, and set out a rabble rousin'.
Cest la vie, man. Cest la vie.
There is still a difference in being patient and accepting less than what we are capable of. I think anyone who watched that game today would say Michigan has such a higher potential than Iowa, at least with current talent levels. I don't really buy the arguments that we lack talent right now. We are LOADED on offense, and decent enough to be a mid-to-above-average defense. I'm all for being patient, but we have to take advantage of our players with better playcalling and less mistakes/ turnovers.
I'd be shocked if we won or lost all three of our remaining games at this point. We're just not quite that good or bad to do that yet. It seems, like almost every other year for the last 50 years of Michigan football, that at the end of the day it will all come down to the last day of the year against that school down south...
We really need Diggs or Payton or Darboh or one of these receivers to come through this year. As great as our recruiting class is shaping up to be, WR is one glaring hole that needs to be filled.
.....lest the jury end up being out on Greg Mattison too. After all, it was HIS defensive line (for he was the D-Line coach in 1994) that just quite couldn't get to Kordell Stewart in time. Remember Hoke's D-Line trying to find Donovan McNabb somewhere on the field? Uh-oh.
We don't need a redux of Edwards or Breaston or Wheatley out there. The current talent plus additions via recruiting may very well do just fine. Time is what you need. Besides, the O-line has been addressed in recruiting as well. Denard (and possibly Devin) might fare better with a few more seconds to read coverage. THAT has been an issue - the lack of time to do this.
Patience is a point of view, Anakin.
Thinking back to this summer, my expectations were 6-6 and hopefully a bowl game with one of those wins against a rival (I was guessing/hoping state). Frankly, I didn't really care what the final record was. All I wanted to see competency and less embarrassing implosions. If we got beat because we weren't strong enough or fast enough, I could live with that. When I heard Hoke say anything less than a B1G championship would be a failure, I was impressed by the high expectations he had for the team, but thought he was out of his mind.
3/4 of the season later, with a softer than expected B1G conference, and a surprisingly improved D, we still were right in the hunt. This group has exceeded my expectations considering new coaches and systems on both offense and defense. It's really a credit to this bunch of kids that, after so little continuity or stability, they were able to buy in yet again. Sure, there are sore spots with Denard's accuracy and the play-calling, but really nothing that can be considered anything but normal growing pains given the circumstances.
Iowa played a hell of a game, mistake free and punishing. They forced us to beat them and in the end we got close but couldn't finish it. There's no shame in that. Let's not devolve into doom and gloom and write them off for the rest of the season. A lot of the comments in the live blog and after have frankly sounded a lot like the Notre Dame blogs. I hope we pull out at least a couple more games (please let it be ohio), but even if we don't, I will still consider this a successful season and look forward to a bright future.
All we need to win is one more game to achieve this record. I'm hoping that the season implosion has not begun but finishing 7-5 again with the experience players we have on both offense and defense will be under performing! I thing we have more upper class-men and experience players to finish 8-4 or 9-3. It will be tough winning in Champagne since I think IL is an overall better team than IA. I still think there is hope to win one or both of our final two home games. We seem to play better at home and I don't think NE is the power house I thought they would be. OSU can be beaten at home, though it will probably be a tough game. So, I'm optimistic that we could win our final two home games and finish at 9-3.
Yeah, my feeling was we'd regress a bit due to the coaching change and underperform our ability. The O has regressed further than I expected, but the D has developed a lot more than I would have expected. Record aside, we've looked like we can hang with any team we play this year and I'm thrilled with that. I think there's an outside chance, probably better than I would like, that we lose the rest, but I still wouldn't consider it an implosion as long as our team keeps fighting, which I think they will
eh, we only have 17 more games with denard to suffer through 50% completion percentage, 150 yards or less, more ints than tds........
It's tempting to think that all Borges had to do was pretty much run last year's offense. Ideally, pairing that with this year's defense would be a potent combination. But last year's offense was centered on Denard running the football, and he paid for it as the season wore on.
Who here wants to see Robinson out for more than a series or two? Like it or not, that affects play calling ... though it doesn't explain never throwing a bubble or not opening the offense up with some no-huddle pacing.
We'll have to have patience because there isn't much depth. RR may well have been heavily constrained this year without Forcier, unless Gardner would have looked enough better in his system to outweigh youth and inexperience.
As frustrated as I was by the playcalling in this game and the ongoing misuse of offensive talent, I still think Borges is an excellent coordinator. His track record is every bit as impressive as Mattison's. He's just working outside of his comfort zone right now and doesn't know how to properly utilize a QB like Denard. Once he gets the tools he needs for his style of play, our offense will be a force to be reckoned with.
I feel like the coaches didnt have this team ready for this game. The first half displayed a lack of focus which lead to not executing on key plays.
This was a game we should have won. If we were at home the Hemingway TD goes our way. Even with the new staff, new system, we're 3 yards from taking a game into OT. Even the great teams dont execute, just take Alabamas OT possesion.
We still have great coaches, this is still a great season and we can still finish strong. I am tired of reading the over-dramatic Michigan fan ready to dump on everyone.
I hate a comparison like that - this to what Rodrioguez had to deal with in 2008. "at least we know Michigan isn't going to to go 3-9 in Hoke's first year". With all due repect Hoke is working with a vastly improved situation than what RR was faced with.
You'll see that in a couple of years. You all will. Hahahaha. Or I'll be wrong. But I'm never wrong. So hahahaha.
how inept this offense was against a competent defense was negged and flamed to Bolivia. Now many more are saying the truth. This offense, the type of players RR brought here, despite what skills they may have, CANNOT beat the better defenses in the conference. Why? Because they are not beig enough, strong enough or fast enough. The play calling is attempting to hide the deficiencies that these players have and they still cannot execute.
The OLine cannot block the better defenses (and even some of the average defenses) in the B1G, the receivers aren't fast enough or big enough to get any separation and the backs and QB are big enough to shake off any tacklers. Denard may be fast, but his speed has been completely neutralized by the defenses in the B1G. He has no holes to run through and he's not as fast as he was two years ago. He's not out-running anyone now. We'll never see what we saw at ND last year.
Every team with a competent defense knows how to scheme to beat Denard and have made him simply average. By doing that, our offense isn't very good because Denard was the X-factor. Teams know how to stop him and without that wild card, Michigan's offense is just average at best. Unless Devin G. learns how to play QB really fast, this team will have to win with defense for the next three years. Shane Morris may be the answer, but not as a freshman. We need a big bruising back and a receiver that create separation and right now we don't have any such thing.
I think you're right. the problem is, this doesn't explain the Iowa game.
Zing! Backhanded compliment of the day...
I will give up one of the next two games, maybe both to beat Ohio State at this point. Losing to Illinois wouldn't be good but would feel like Iowa. I've thought Nebraska would win from the moment the schedule came out but maybe not anymore. I could care less if the conference is weak and if we are "frauds". I don't care if OSU is down because they didn't care that Michigan has been down and they were dirtier than used Depends in their wins. For me perosnally beating Illinois and Nebraska only to lose to OSU would leave a bad taste. Going 2-1 isn't ideal it would be far more palatable of one of those wins came at home on November 26, 2011.
Actually, we probably have more raw talent on our teams than most of the B1G teams we play. I just get frustrated knowing if the coaches and players would play to their ability they could beat the IA and MSU of the B1G! It is disappointing knowing that we should play better but some how we do not capitalize on our skills. IMO we are a better team than IA and probably are on the same level of MSU. I like what Mattison is doing on defense, and I think the D played well enough to allow us to win. The offense is frustrating since we have skill players for some reason they do not mesh well enough to get the results necessary to win.
I will not give a final grade to the current coaching staff until the final game of the season. But from what I see now we will probably lose our last 4 games and finish at a disappointing 7-5. I was hoping for 8-4 which may still be possible but I think B1G teams know how to play the spread, so I think there is a good chance we will loose the remainder of our games. I'm still hoping that Hoke can pull out a win against OSU at home, and if he does a it will be a successful 8-4 season breaking a big losing streak against OSU. However, if we finish with 4 strait losses I will be quite disappointed in Hoke's first season.
Next season we will be lucky to finish 7-5. We'll have to play Alabama in Dallas and ND in SB, these could be two non-conferences losses. I expect we'll be a better team but maybe not so much better. I'm still be worried about losing at home to MSU and on the road to OSU next year. Though we should beat some of the middle B1G teams but we may have a worse W-L record. I think 2013 will be a break out season...but I'm still worried about finding a top RB to take over what will be a true pro set and how well will Gardner play?
Secretly I was hoping Hoke would have a first season similar to Bo but now I know this dream is fading, and we will end up in some lower terr bowl game. I felt like we got a true groin punch from today's loss. But Hoke still has 4 games to prove himself, so I will pass judgement until the end of the season.
I will always root for our team and I love watching our team and kids playing their hearts out, no matter their record. I will always root for them.