Same buzz about DG last year, and while I believe it, I think he's a year off before really pushing D-Rob.
Over/Under: MICH QBs
No, the buzz last year was that Denard was the best QB on the roster.
like right after the '09 season, most of us were wondering if Denard had what it took to be a QB, or at the very least did not feel he would overtake Tate the next year. Based on his behavior, Tate seemed to think that as well; it was truly amazing the progress Denard made during the off season. Devin fared better in his freshman year than Denard did, and I'm referring to his passing, who is to say he won't have an exponential improvement like Shoelace had? One thing is for sure, it's a pretty pleasant problem for the coaches to have, who starts, 1a or 1b?
No way he starts over Denard, just wont happen. I do believe DG will be a good QB someday though.
I didn't think Denard would be able to overtake Tate last year so what the hell do I know, but I would think it takes an injury to Denard that keeps him out a couple of games, plus Gardner playing extraordinary during his absense to turn this into a real QB controversy.
It won't be through fault of Denard, but I believe that he will get injured enough to rationalize missing one start, and Devin will perform well enough that Hoke will find it safer to keep him out an extra week, leading to a sort of 1A and 1B situation again.
I've heard the same browsing the interwebs.... but it really doesn't mean anything to me. Because I've heard and seen a lot more about people saying that Denard is adapting well and doing a good job in the Offense during Spring Practice.
I'm just marking it up to a bad practice. So under.
Devin will look better in the spring game. Denard will start every game in the fall.
I might be crazy here, and me never playing football might show, but I'd think that in spring the coaches are trying to teach everything new, and come fall, if Denard is behind, they might just tweak the offense to suit Denard's progression better.
I know Borges doesn't want to run Denard twenty times a game, but if Denard just can't get to where they want him (I think he will, but it's a possibility), I've got to think they'll adjust more. Whether or not he's the best QB, he is also possibly the best returning rusher in the nation, and that seems too valuable to keep on the sideline, even for someone as talented as DG.
I think rushing is the key here. I know they want to cut down on Denard's rushes to better fit into their offense, but another big part of that is so that he stays healthy. While I'm sure they will still incorporate plays for him, I think Borges is going to try to emphasize to Denard to scramble. This might mean that they also tell him to slide more so that defenders don't get free shots at him. Overall, I think Denard's effectiveness was at its best when he was healthiest. He kept getting beat up and it took a toll on his passing. The new offense does have some benefits for Denard if they go about it the right way.
As far as an over/under, it would have to depend on how (much) Denard is running. If he's taking the same shots as last season, I would consider the over. If they protect him more and he protects himself, I'll go under.
Competition is good. If Devin is really pushing Denard, I'm happy because that means we're going to have a guy come in who might be as good as Denard coming in if necessary.
I think the competition is good, but I don't see Devin being more valuable on the field than Denard.
I'm hoping he scrambles a lot more. Obviously the guy isn't the best off the field, but Pryor burned us (and everyone else) last year with those scrambles, and Denard is a good bit faster than Pryor. That's kind of what I'm hoping for with Denard this year; Pryor in The Game last year, maybe with more designed runs and a little lower completion percentage.
I don't think he takes the same shots as last year. He's not going to be running up the gut on at Ryan Kerrigan/JJ Watt every play, and that's a good thing. I think Denard stays healthy, we get Denarded, but not as much as last year, hopefully a back steps up and then we see DG "shock the world" with 3:30 left in the 4th when we're up.
I was thinking the same thing. Must be the name...
I think Denard's experience starting last year is going to ensure the spot heading into the season. Borges said in his presser last week that it's basically written in already.
but DG will get plenty of PT when we are up by 4 touchdowns because our defense will 'shock the world'
But how are we going to get 22 starters on the Cosby Show as a reward though? Seems like an awfully big cameo.
That and we'd have to get it back on the air.
I'll probably get beaten up for this, but one of my biggest worries about the effects of the hyper-opinionated Michigan fanbase is its effect upon the quarterback situation. Denard is great and literally might be my favorite athlete (ever). Still, I want the coaches to feel like they can freely choose between Denard and Devin without worrying that fans will freak out about their decision. If Borges feels much more comfortable with Gardner, then this odd notion that we owe Denard more than we owe Devin -- and that the only want to satisfy that debt to Denard is by starting him at quarterback -- is more harmful than helpful.
I'm sure that the coaches will make the best decision and anyone who thinks they know better can go yell somewhere else, BUT, you do worry, wanting to be PC in their first season, that they might be reluctant to make changes at the core of the program if necessary.
Devin could be Tom Brady in the spring and fall and I still think Denard gets the first start.
OTOH I think that Denard brings more to the table unless Devin does start having accuracy like, well, Tom Brady.
Can you imagine the outrage around here if it came out that Devin's going to be the QB and Denard will play slot/KR/PR/CB/whatever? Hoke and Borges would be excoriated as out of touch and incapable of adapting to their talent. I have no idea if that's what would be best for the team, but I definitely want the coaches to be able to make that -- or any other -- decision without worrying about alienating a part of the fanbase.
They just don't have the numbers to start DG and put Denard at another position. In reality, Michigan has 2 QBs that they could believe would lead them to victory. Putting the second string in a spot to get injured would leave only 1. I think if DG starts, Denard would just be a backup, just as we aren't going to be seeing DG at WR anytime soon. Not to mention the fact that it's a new offense and it seems highly unlikely that the coaching staff wouldn't allow players to learn at least one position before trying to make them a jack-of-all-trades type player.
Still, I think Denard starts unless injured. DG might be a more polished passer and I could see him getting reps, but this is Denard's team.
Just by mentioning Denard at slot, etc., you answer the question. Since Denard cannot be kept off the field, if Devin starts then we exaccerbate our lack of depth at QB. Just one more reason why it is a 99% lock that Denard starts at QB.
Physically, DG is the more ideal QB of the two. In fact, DG could even be the better QB right now (undetermined, but seems to be a more polished passer.) But Denard is probably the best offensive talent we've seen since...well I can't remember when. If DG beats him out, then that could only be a great testament to his abilities. No matter what, Denard has to be on the field.
I'm couldn't be less worried about the U-M QB situation.
I totally agree. I think either of those kids could lead us very far.
Is QB depth really that serious?
Assuming Denard starts, DG is (given the topic of the board) a more than adequate backup in the (hopefully unlikely) event that Denard gets injured. Now, if something happens to both Denard and DG, there's Kennedy and Bellamy (an assumed perpetual clip-board holder and a true freshman), neither of whom any of us want to see the field. But realistically, Michigan's backup is going to be much better than most places' #2s and who wouldn't be in a terrible situation if their #3 had to take over.
If there was a "Second String All-America Team" I think we would have been great at QB last year and this year.
Devin is going to be incredible, and you can say what you want about Tate, but he mostly delivered when he came in last year. Not the prettiest display of QB'ing, but he got the job done for the most part, and probably had a bigger impact on M than any other backup QB I can think of.
I completely agree about last season. Michigan had more competent depth at QB than probably any other team I watched last season.
I know people are worried about QB depth in the long run, especially if DG doesn't get his redshirt. But it seems really odd to be worrying about depth when the discussion at hand is which of the two excellent QBs is the more excellent. I was legitimately wondering if people think depth will be a problem this fall.
I'd say no, the people who are worrying are the people who worry about everything. We have one great QB, and one who's at least very good, if he's pushing the great QB. Unless we turn into Purdue, I can't think of a time we won't be fine.
Even if Gardner doesn't get his redshirt, you're looking at him, Pike (or some other 5* big time guy) and Bellomy after Denard is gone. And while Denard is here, we have a reigning All-American.
Haha, when I was thinking about other teams' QB situations from last season, Purdue was the first one that came to mind. Weren't they using their injured 2nd-string QB as their starting RB? As much as I hate Hope, I couldn't help but feel bad for everything that beset that team last season. Maybe, in part, because it's the kind of thing that could happen to any team; say Michigan's defensive backfield, for example.
I'm not too worried about long term depth, myself, seeing as we have two more years of Denard and at least one more after that of DG. So, as long as Michigan lands a good QB in this upcoming class, they'll be fine for a while, in my opinion.
Getting Bellomy was awesome, just because I couldn't imagine being in Hope's office the day he heard, after Roundtree and all.
I imagine Hope's face turned bright red and actual steam shot out of his ears
(accompanied by a train whistle sound) when he got the news. Bellomy might not have been the most important, needed, or hyped recruit from this class, but he definitely holds a special place in my heart.
I agree about Bellomy being awesome just because of that. Kind of like hearing all about Jack Kennedy and seeing him as a cult hero now.
Of all the positions to worry about, this ain't it.
be the starter.
I'm no offensive guru, but I think if Devin is doing as well as people say, we could certainly put in some dual qb/wildcat/surprise type plays. There are endless possibilities, especially if you have both in at the same time. Imagine Devin, who I think wil be the better passer due to his height and ability to see the field better, in there with Denard by his side as a 1. RB 2. slot receiver 3. distraction 4. option play. It might be a good Red Zone play. You get all those players packed into a smaller space and it's harder for a smaller guy to see the field for passing plays. A creative coach will find useful options.
Creative coaching is key - I am with you. A friend who has been at a few practices as well said some of the same things - Devin looked much better the other day, etc. His feeling was as much as Hopkins seems to have improved, you have a game breaker in Denard and Devin - why not have both of them on the field. But let's face it, I don't think anyone wants to line up Denard at 2 back and run him through the line.
So...yes, a few creative sets with both of them on the field is the solution in my mind - maybe a little Denard all over the place.
I am also going to assume that they will be working on Denard's weaknesses during practice and will game plan appropriately come fall.
He felt there was a major step up in coaching on D - how the kids are being coached and how much fun everyone seems to have in practice. Really sounds like, beyond talent on the field, that there will be a major improvement.
This exact idea was brought up last off-season with Denard and Tate. Everyone was debating who would start against UConn based on Tate's on the field performance the previous year and practice reports on Denard during the Spring. Inevitably people (myself included) started suggesting a two-QB set, with Denard as some kind of hybrid-play-ever-position kind of player. Not questioning the merit of the suggestion, just pointing out that this is eerily similar to last off season.
Personally, my opinion is that given that the coaches are installing a new offensive system, I'd be skeptical of them trying to work out something as complicated as a simultaneous dual-QB set, just because they have two good QBs at their disposal. (If it's possible, I'd love to see it.)
The mythical Dual-QB unbeatable offensive stratagem, from the Tate-vs-Denard days of yore.
Not going to happen, brah.
Under. I have been around a few practices this spring, and although Devin was better this particular day, Denard has had the better spring overall in my humble opinion. Most of the people I have talked to that were there also agree that it will be hard to not give Devin run this season. We are blessed to have two special talents on our QB depth chart. Those who think that a Zeke Pike would come in here and take Devin's place are mistaken.
Devin was going against the 2's the entire scrimmage, and well, quite honestly, our 2nd string defense isn't very good outside of a few players. Marvin made a a few nice plays at FS. It's a shame he has had practice conflict with class this spring. I think he will make a run at a spot somewhere in fall camp though.However, Carvin will be tough to beat out at FS . He is a good one. Cullen made a couple of nice plays. Jake Ryan will be a future star. That kid has it.Quinton Washington is solid, but probably a year away. Other than that, the 2nd team D isn't very good, or at the very least, not ready for prime time yet.
If Devin was playing against BWC and Mike Martin in this particular scrimmage, he wouldn't have done very well either. Those two cats owned the offensive line. This was an offensive line minus Molk and Lewan mind you, but Denard had absolutely little time to set his feet, and do particularly much of anything in the passing game because Martin( who was playing some stand up rush end) and Big Will were getting so much pressure. His feet are obviously his most dangerous weapon though, and it showed on Saturday as well.
I sure hope that our O-line (sans Molk and Lewan) can't stop Martin and BWC.
Great to hear about BWC, Carvin, and Marvin.
As for the question, actual starts will depend on injury. Devin's going to be very, very good. After Denard.
Regardless of what happens, we are extremely fortunate that we are even having this discussion, no? Many teams don't have two extremely talented quarterbacks, let alone one extremely talented quarterback. I do think Denard will start every game, but I also believe that Devin will see the field quite a bit this year.
I'll be happy when I no longer see this in Devin's throwing motion:
Seriously -- he seems to have ALL the other tools. I don't see him starting this year, but I think he'll be great before too long.
I didn't know Simon Cowell was a shotputter
Denard's mechanics aren't much better.
WHERE THE FRACK IS MY PRACTICE VIDEO?!?
Spring practice video is like catnip for MGoBloggers.
For once I can say I dont give a rats ass about our QB battle because for once it features....upperclassman (well 1 at least since DG is a Soph/pseudo RS frosh)
I love Devin's future but I cannot take another fuckin year of a first year starter at QB.
I think last year worked out just fine, thank you very much
Eh, it kind of did. Keep in mind that Denard still made a lot of first year starter mistakes. He was just lucky enough to be an extremely gifted runner to help mitigate some of those mistakes. No matter how much hype DG is getting in spring, you have to assume he's gonna make RS freshman/first year starter type mistakes once the big games start, but without the heroic running to make up for it.
unless there is an injury....UNDER
The only reasons DG will replace DR as starter are injury or if Denard simply can't stop turning the ball over. The first is much more likely to occur than the second.
Ditto what Don said.
The good news? We have 2 good QBs. Maybe that allows Borges to run Denard more, knowing that if he needs to come out for a bit, his backup will pick up where he left off. And if Denard doesn't get hurt, he just keeps running it over everyone.
First off, I just want to echo other people's sentiment that having 2 good QBs is a really nice problem to have.
But I have to imagine that Denard is solidly in the lead at this point. He's a Heisman finalist incumbent. All the reports say he's adapting well. By all accounts he has a heroic work ethic. The coaches keep talking about keeping/adding things to the offense specifically for Denard. It seems like he's got it locked down at the moment.
That said, I would hope that the coaching staff doesn't feel too much outside pressure to keep him in simply because he's a fan favorite. Personally, Denard may be my favorite player in my 20+ years of watching Michigan football. But if DG legitimately beats him out, I would hope the coaching staff feels secure enough to make the switch. I just seriously don't think it'll happen.
Also, does anyone else feel deja vu about this offseason? Quasi-QB controversy. Cam Gordon hype. (I guess maybe that's it, but still...)
From the clinic, it was easy to see Robinsin is the absolute leader of the offense. It was also easy to see the 2nd Defense is absolutely horrible. They were abused over and over again during the three day period.
I think DG will only start if DRob is injured, although DG might end up being a better QB in Hoke's system. 2012 could be an interesting QB battle.
My feelings about the QB situation have been made clear over the past year or so. And maybe I'm just stubborn, but I haven't really changed my mind.
I still think Gardner is a better quarterback prospect. I don't know how long it will take for Gardner to surpass Robinson as a quarterback, but I think it will happen at some point. I also think Robinson is headed for a different position in the NFL (WR, SR, RB).
Whether Gardner shows he's better than Robinson this year or not...I have no clue.
So, are you going Over or Under 1.5 Devin starts in 2011?
Do it for a post at TTB. I'm sure nobody will fisk it.
Devin was hands down the top QB in his class, only a year younger than Denard, while Denard was a QB project coming into college. I cant imagine a talent like Devin Gardner sitting on the sideline for three full college years until he starts. Couldnt imagine it when he signed the LOI and cant imagine it now. Despite the progress Denard has obviously made and can still make.
A quick look through my e-mail history reveals why I'm not qualified to answer this question.
my friend's e-mail:
"the little QB for michigan I thought had no chance and low and behold he got a victory. At times it seemed like he was just flinging it to no one. Tate. man I dont know about that kid"
"I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. He's a true freshman who only has 1 turnover in two games. He's an elite runner and can throw on the move very well. I'm fired up for the Tate Forcier era."
"Allow me some Michigan football talk for a minute. They have 2 sophomore qb's, Tate Forcier and Denard Robinson. Forcier started every game last year as a freshman and is the more polished passer of the two. Robinson's qb skills are raw but improving and he is the superior athlete of the two. By all accounts it's a wide open race for the starting job right now. I think Rich Rod is gonna stick with Tate for at least the beginning of the season because of his experience and RR needs wins to keep his job this year. He can't be trying to develop another QB if Robinson isn't 100% ready to go. However, the Big 10 just had their media day and MIchigan took 3 of their seniors down to Chicago for the conference. A senior corner back said Tate hasn't been showing up to the voluntary practices and he considers him a "disease". This is a disaster. It really sounds like Tate is quitting on the team and the team is quitting on him. If that means Robinson is forced into the starting role before he is ready it's gonna cost them some games, RR will probably get fired, and I could be looking at another miserable 3-4 years of Michigan football"
Gardner is the prototype QB Borges is looking for. That said, maybe Al WANTS DG to be the guy.
idiot. The only thing that is POOP is your idiotic opinion. Did you honestly expect a first year starter to not make some mistakes or need some more polish?
You are a fucking idiot
Denard Robinson agains the 3 toughest defenses he faced and the bowl game (OSU, Wisky, Iowa, Miss St):
1067 total yards
Chad Henne against his 3 toughest opponents and the bowl game his senior year (Oregon, Wisconsin, OSU, and Florida):
598 total yards
4 INTs (these numbers include a 68 yard passing day against his toughest opponent OSU)
But you are right, Robinson just didn't play well the best competition.
Although your opinion is not even a legitimate one to hold, since it is contradicted by actual facts not open to debate, the testimony of our own eyes, and then of actual football coaches who rave about him. It is ludicrous and wrong, and cannot even be held without being wrong. But, I do commend you for responding so politely to the attack you got, which was both personal and with expletives. You could have responded in kind but didn't, well done.
I realize that everyone has an opinion, but geez, your's is terrible. Just terrible. Next time you voice your opinion, actually think first and try and use some semblance of logic.
Not that this posts deserves it (because it's just you trying to be a dick to Denard) but:
MSU- 17/29 215yds 1td 3int/ 21attempts 86yds
Illinois- Geez, his bad for getting hurt. Tom Brady went down in the preseason! Fire Tom Brady!
PSU- 11/23 190yds 1td/ 27attempts 190yds
OSU- The dude had a dislocated middle finger on his throwing hand and played anyway. WTF do you want?
I mean, I'm sure you're a better authority than the Big Ten coaches, or the All-America selectors. I can't wait until I post this and click the little "hide user" next to your name so I'm not subjected to your ridiculous statements any more.
You are very stupid.
Never mind what I said earlier.
Sean Ornery is a notorious pot stirrer.
HOWEVER, Denard does still have a lot to prove, especially in a new type of offense. I know everyone likes to point to Denard's completion percentage last year, but he was consistently inaccurate on deep throws. If not for the little bubble screens, his numbers would have been much worse. Additionally, even his bubble screens were somewhat inaccurate. There were countless times where the throw was completed but he made the receiver dive, jump, or twist around to make a catch. I'm not suggesting that you remove those bubble screen completions from his numbers, just that they're a bit misleading.
The difference is that I respect your football analysis. Sean Ornery provided no such analysis.
You're right that Denard is not the perfect QB. He might not be the best QB we've had, but he's good. I realize he has some mechanical issues and he'll always have his height holding him back to some extent, but disparaging a 1st Team All-American at Michigan and saying, "he's not that good" with the evidence being that he's not good when hurt (duh) and he's not good when he faces two of the best defenses in the nation as a first-year starter (duh) is just idiotic.
That's not pot stirring, that's trolling. Pot stirring would be saying, "hmm...I think Devin might overtake Denard because Borges has shown that he likes the prototypical QB, more like Devin than Denard. Also, Denard has some serious throwing flaws and Devin has worked to fix his." Pot stirring would involve provoking a discussion, which, to your credit, you do even when you're not being the nicest guy around.
I agree with what you're saying. I think his posting style takes away from the substance (whatever substance there is) of his posts. I don't know how he reaches his conclusions, but sometimes they're not completely out of left field. That's really my only point regarding him.
I went back and read your opinion on Devin v. Denard, and I was wondering what you thought about Denard's running ability keeping him in the top slot even if Devin is the better passer. I would think that RR would stay with Denard because of his, likely, vastly superior running ability, even if it cost some completions or interceptions compared to where Devin would be.
Do you think that under Borges Devin is going to have to be a really significantly better passer than Denard to overcome the deficit in rushing prowess, or do you think they'll be evaluated on QB skills straight up, so to speak?
I think Denard would have been RR's guy as long as both were here. I'm not a huge fan of Denard as QB, but he fits what Rodriguez wanted. And frankly, Gardner isn't as electrifying of a runner as Denard.
I don't think Devin has to be a great deal better than Denard to earn the job. I think the new offense fits Gardner a little better, and he could be dynamic as a SCRAMBLING quarterback even without the same skills as a pure runner. In Borges' offense, I think he'll value the passing slightly more than the running. The running should be left (mostly) to the running backs. Denard is obviously a more dangerous runner, but I don't think that should necessarily outweigh pure quarterback skills.
Pot Stirring is creating a thread asking folks to bet Over/Under 1.5 Devin Gardner starts this year. Ornery is just being an internet douche bag because he can.
Oh jamiemac, you and your pot stirring...
No QB does everything right in his first year. The deep throws were deflating, but he throws them well in practice. More often than not, I liked Denard's accuracy. He struggled when he thought too much, which a new offense isn't going to help. He gets tight and thinks about aiming - remember the tight end screen he threw over the guy's head against Iowa?
When he just plays, he throws very well. Being a second year starter, and not being exhausted from running every play - a lot of throwing is in your legs -, will make him deadly this year. And we need a RB to emerge, dammit.
Just thinking about his posting history, I doubt it.
Bright side? I installed BlockM's Ultra MGoBoard and now I don't have to read "opinions" like that after a click of the mouse!
Installing Ultra MGoBoard is definitely on my To Do list.
I was hoping you would come on because I wanted to ask if the rumor you told about points being backlogged was true or not. Did you actually hear this or were you trying to scare that poster who was being a dick?
Brian hinted that points were coming online soon again in this post:
In the meantime I will reach in and restore the dirty hack I dirtily hacked the first time around. Give me some time, a week or so.
You know me justingoblue; I don't make idle threats or bluster to get idiots to shut up.
"The consequences are coming back next week. I've heard up and down votes from between the Malware Apocalypse and now will retroactively count when the new points system is activated.
In short: Watch what you say on this site."
I hadn't heard that, just that points would be coming back online in the next week-ten days (which should now be more like 2-3 days).
I just searched Brian's postings and the Board for about half an hour and could not find any explicit proof that the votes from the Malware Apocalypse and now will count. So, you got me there. I will uselessly down-vote my last two votes as punishment.
You should have spent the time downloading Ultra. You can pick favorites and banhammer people. It actually takes about thirty seconds.
So far I've added three favorites and three people are blocked.
I'm getting too old and venerated to keep smacking down n00bs. Guess I'll have to change my name to "Ancient BlueDragon" one of these days and buy some suspenders.
Is Gardner going up against the second-team D all day? Don't the twos on one side often go up against the ones on the other?
Good teams figured us out last year. It's fairly easy when you have good talent on D to stop a "one man" show. We need as many different looks as possible. It may not be the first few games as they adjust to the new system, but incorporating new looks (Devin alone or Devin and Denard together) along with some threats from running backs, receivers would make this offense much more potent. Lets have so many options that the D has no clue what's coming or who to watch.
Exactly. Which means we need more walk on QB's!
Sean Ornery, you're right about DR getting hurt, but he'll run the ball a whole lot less this year, so the chances of him getting hurt are drastically reduced.
I would like to see Gardner start. He has looked very impressive in spring football videos. The spring game should give a better glimpse into which qb is the better fit. maybe they should run a two qb offense...
no way he starts before a healthy Denard.
develops before we go off creating a QB controversy. I'm speaking to the RB's and not the bootlegs or assigned QB runs.