Outline of the SI Story on OK State Posted
http://insidesportsillustrated.com/2013/09/09/sports-illustrated-invest…
Part 2 and 4 are the ones I find actually troubling, as well as 5 potentially, obviously. If 4 is well documented, it's entirely possible Gundy and Miles committed an actual crime, IMO. And should be suspended pending investigation before kickoff Saturday if they're well documented.
September 10th, 2013 at 1:07 AM ^
Hmm slap on the wrist sounds about right.
/NCAA
September 10th, 2013 at 3:09 PM ^
no way man!!! they are bring the hammer down!!!! OSU is sooooooo screwed!!!
s/
September 10th, 2013 at 3:31 PM ^
September 10th, 2013 at 1:12 AM ^
It won't be long before the NCAA comes down on them hard.
September 10th, 2013 at 11:05 AM ^
NCAA might not be around for much longer. The most respected poster on Rivals came out with some nuggets with regard to this today, the most significant:
- Self governing 64-team (or so) division
- New governing body to replace NCAA
- Players paid
Essentially, he believes college football will be made into a semi-pro sport. Gone will be the days of unfair advantages. As well as many weaker athletic departments (hence the '64 or so' teams) and non-revenue sports.
September 10th, 2013 at 11:19 AM ^
I really hope it doesn't go down to 64 teams.
September 10th, 2013 at 2:21 PM ^
the rest of the schools.
September 10th, 2013 at 2:18 PM ^
will not be allowed to be paid directly by the universities. That is the one shoe that cannot fall. And the idea of college football as a semi-pro sport is not sustainable. Football is but part of an athletic department with multiple teams. Who else gets paid? Do basketball players get paid? The universities are still part of the conference but the football team isn't part of the university. Is the basketball team?
If anything, players will be allowed to profit from their own name, or the NFL will repeal or change its 3 year rule. This story does not end with players being paid salaries or stipends, nor does it is end with the elimination of the NCAA and/or college football as we know it.
Tales such as the SI peice at Oklahoma State are as old as the game. These type of infractions are not new nor are they worse than before. They are just discussed more.
It happens. It always has. These things happen and the programs are punished and the cycle repeats. I just wish people would stop talking about it and let us watch college football.
September 10th, 2013 at 2:31 PM ^
Is that being like the richest guy at the homeless shelter?
Really, do you work for that site?
September 10th, 2013 at 3:11 PM ^
Giving the players some more money isn't going to stop boosters from giving the players money or stop the players from accepting the money. It isn't going to stop people setting up jobs where the players get paid, but don't work.
It sounds good in principle but it's not going to clean anything up. You think Cam Newton and his dad would have turned down the 6 figures they were supposedly paid because Cam was getting say $1500/mo with the new rules?
September 10th, 2013 at 3:21 PM ^
"It ain't gonna be for minimum wage this time."
September 10th, 2013 at 1:15 AM ^
This is my favorite gif
September 10th, 2013 at 1:19 AM ^
They may well have committed a crime, but it's outside the NCAA window for investigation, so there ain't a damn thing the government can do about it.
September 10th, 2013 at 1:26 AM ^
This does not follow. It depends on the criminal code in Oklahoma, not that they'd ever be charged.
September 10th, 2013 at 2:22 AM ^
Either my ability to emit sarcasm has been greatly diminished, or you hang around a lot of stupid people.
September 10th, 2013 at 1:20 AM ^
So. Good report by SI. They now hand over the report to the "NCAA", whatever that is, and they take 2-3 years reviewing all of what's in the report. Then, Oklahoma State, under the control of coach Mike Gundy, who will be somehwere in the range of 45 or 46 years old, to be clear, or most likely somebody else by then who may or may not have been around for these allegations, then have 6 scholarships taken away over the course of 3 seasons. Punishment. Established.
The aforementioned NCAA then continues to work on the University of Miami case.
September 10th, 2013 at 1:25 AM ^
When all of us assholes (myself included) were pining for the next hot coach/big name (Miles, Harbaugh, Kelly, Urban, etc), Brandon kept a steady hand and hired a values guy in Hoke. I was bitter and convinced we were destined to the pergutory of mediocrity and big time college football was a thing of the past for Michigan. Took Mr. Hoke to remind me that you can win and recruit with character and class, as this is Michigan fergodsakes. So thankful we dont have any of those scumbags running our program.
September 10th, 2013 at 10:29 AM ^
for not wanting Les Miles. He knew what's going on with Les Miles and Michigan fans were pissed at him for missing his call because he's went out boating.
September 10th, 2013 at 12:42 PM ^
Most believe it was a Mr. McGoo moment.
September 10th, 2013 at 2:12 PM ^
it was documented on 3 and out book. MSC and other Michigan people insisted that he contact Les Miles. My bet is he did it on purpose so he wouldn't have to deal with Les MIles
September 10th, 2013 at 11:24 AM ^
You can't judge a Hoke by its cover, but the most important thing is that no "Michigan Men" are working against the head coach, especially in recruiting. Any program is better when the whiners are kept at bay and everyone works together for the good of the program.
Any head coach needs 100% support to do a great job. This is why we are seeing some great recuiting classes and no questionable recruits. It is also why I was hoping those who were complaining about Al Borges would stop and see what he can do with a full roster designed for what he wants to do.
In two or three more years, we will know whether Michigan is destined to be penciled in at 9-3 every year, or if the Borges pro-set offense can put up enough points to combat the spread and maybe bring home a National Championship in the foreseeable future.
41 against ND is definitely reason for optimism.
September 10th, 2013 at 1:27 AM ^
It says they interviewed players from 1999 to 2011. They must've been really bad at cheating early on and had to learn how to do it right?
September 10th, 2013 at 1:29 AM ^
Based on reporting on the reporting, apparently most of it was from 2001 to 2007 (Miles left in 2005), though some of it was both before and after. Less documentation though, maybe? We'll start to see tomorrow.
September 10th, 2013 at 1:42 AM ^
Les Miles and Mike Gundy could possibly be implicated in:
Fraud,
Accessory to the distribution and use of illegal substances,
Negligence.
I could be wrong, but that's basically what I summed up from the article outline. That is a scary thought. And yet the Oklahoma statute of limitations is 3 years for most crimes - with exceptions, but none are listed here.
That could be bad.
September 10th, 2013 at 1:56 AM ^
People in power pressuring girls with considerably less power to have sex is... bad. Let's go with that.
September 10th, 2013 at 2:37 AM ^
If prostitution was applicable.
All of this is bad. Really bad. Corruption at it's finest.
September 10th, 2013 at 5:26 AM ^
if you remember lynell hamilton (or whatever the running back who looked at us ten years ago and chose san diego state) or the stories of tyrell pryor and his sexcapades on campus here you should be a little skeptical of whatever stories you hear from recruiting...
as to the guy who talked about powerful men and women without power, don't be so sexist. I'd imagine the women having sex with football players enjoy it, some might be so interested in having sex with a football player that they would join whatever welcome group someone set up so they could meet the players early and often...
and nothing will come from all of this anyway; only honest universities suffer...
September 10th, 2013 at 8:42 AM ^
The difference here is that these women were representing the athletic department of OSU while they were banging the recruits, not just some random campus football groupies. It sounds basically like a university sponsored escort service.
There's still much we don't know... were they paid by OSU? Is there ANY evidence that their supervisors encouraged them to have sex with these guys?
At a minimum it looks really bad. At worst you coul dbe talking about criminal promoting prostitution.
September 10th, 2013 at 9:12 AM ^
I'm not going to deny that this Orange Pride stuff is bad, but it's not prostitution. At least there is nothing here to suggest that it is. There is a large subset of any college campus of girls who like to date (and sleep with) the football players (and other athletes), and I'd be willing to bet that the Orange Pride girls who chose to bang recruits were the ones who totally wanted to bang recruits. Some probably signed up for that reason.
Now, I think the whole concept of "hostesses" is bad just because it means you're selling kids on the wrong stuff and taking advantage of a 17 guys' tendency to allow banging a hot chick to impact a major life decision. But I don't think there's any female exploitation going on.
September 10th, 2013 at 10:04 AM ^
We definitely need to know more facts before anyone can say it's prostitution. Mainly, what are Oklahoma statutes on prostitution and what, if any, were the tangible benefits, probably need cash or something of financial value, the girls accrued through the program. Until more emerges, anything is just speculation. I agree that the hostess programs are generally wrong. However, I disagree that there isn't any female exploitation going on. Mainly cause, once again, we need more facts; the hostess program obviously is a basic level of exploitation and there could be far more going on. Obviously there are female college students who want to sleep with athletes and will do this on their own without the platform of the hostess program. However, by overlapping the official hostess program with sexual encounters with recruits, this opens the door for significant abuse and harm for the females. One, if any issues whatsoever arise, the program gets put in a tough spot of either defending an employee/volunteer or a recruit who is potentially. The program is probably going to choose the recruit as their are far more significant tangible gains to be made from winning football games. Two, I'm sure there was some type of implicit, if not explicit, pressure going on to sleep with players. Not all female students that sign up to tour potential students, even football players, necessarily want to sleep with them. It is equally plausible that some are huge OSU football aficionados/fans and love the university so maybe they want to be involved in the program to ensure its success. They probably recognize the allure that a female has versus a male tour guide, but that doesn't mean they want to sleep with the recruits. Especially if there were hostesses in the program prior to its revamp that allegedly seemed to encourage sleeping with the recuits that stayed in the program, there is significant space for abuse. Third, and related to the above two, we have young impressionable female students who are not fully developed interacting with football professionals who are often driven only by success. This just screams potential for abuse. Even if these girls are signing up to meet the players so they can pursue them later, this doesn't mean that OSU couldn't be exploiting them. Exploitation is the manipulation of another's weaknesses or desires in order to extract a material benefit for oneself. OSU sells recruits on sex while the girls get to meet players; the female students become an object in OSU's equation. In conclusion, I agree with your prudence, and we cannot rush to judgement saying this is prostitution until we know more; however, regardless of prostitution, exploitation is definitely at play in all of these situations. Also, sorry for no paragraphs; for some reason the editor wouldn't let me skip down.
September 10th, 2013 at 2:39 PM ^
If you have hostesses you know are banging recruits, you should be "firing" them and they shouldn't be hostesses anymore. Because I'm guessing it's against the rules you have to follow to do the job.
Not that different from NFL cheerleading squads that don't let their members date players. It may not be prostitution on the part of the girls, but it's definitely pimping on the part of the institution.
September 10th, 2013 at 9:11 AM ^
A friend of mine went with Charles Rogers on a visit to MSU back in 2000 and he said they had a group of girls that led them into a room (don't remember if it was on campus or off) and they basically stripped for them and then had an orgy. I have no idea if the girls were paid by the university or anything but those things don't just happen.
I have also heard stories about some group of girls from Tennessee doing similar things, even going so far as to visit recruits at their high schools.
September 10th, 2013 at 9:31 AM ^
My wife's roommate at MSU to the 1st semester of freshman year (fortunately the only year my wife went there) was very open about having a goal of sleeping with every football/basketball player she could. College girls wanting to make trophies out of athletes is nothing new by any stretch of the imagination and has nothing to do with them being coerced into doing so "by powerful men."
September 10th, 2013 at 10:36 AM ^
we do this too. I've seen sorority girls actually ask their sisters "who wants to take the recruit out tonight?" many times. I always wondered how they knew a recruit was visiting. obviously I don't think our AD promoted it, but food for thought, nonetheless.
September 10th, 2013 at 12:48 PM ^
Often the football players tell their friends (girls) that they are coming and to give them extra attention and or flirt.
I hosted many recruits for lacrosse and we did this regularly. If they banged the kid it was consensual.
September 10th, 2013 at 2:51 PM ^
The problem only comes in of you have an athletic department employee spending AD money to organize such things.
College girls being tipped off to a visiting high school athlete and voluntarily lining up to show him a good time is a bit creepy (mostly because of the high school thing), but not "wrong" (there are consensual "groupies" for just about everything, after all).
AD employee on company time calling up a sorority and saying "we need five ladies here at 8PM, don't wear anything complicated" crosses the line to wrong, adding, "we'll make sure there's something in it for you if you put out" probably takes it to criminal.
September 10th, 2013 at 9:26 AM ^
Don't forget pimping.
September 10th, 2013 at 10:46 AM ^
...let's not forget "aggravated pimping".
September 10th, 2013 at 10:47 AM ^
...let's not forget "aggravated pimping".
September 10th, 2013 at 1:57 AM ^
severely punished for.
Direct payments from an assistant coach to a player is a big deal if it can be proven.
September 10th, 2013 at 2:50 AM ^
Well this should hopefully end the Sailboat Bill jokes (I have to admit, I've made a few myself). The oddly unified story I've heard is that Miles was exiled from AA by Bo for various sins beyond the whole screwing Mrs. Moeller thing, which might just be campfire gossip anyway. Which was why when coming into the 2006 season, when Carr wanted to retire and Bo was alive, no move was made to hire Miles. As the story goes, MSC felt that Bo was over reacting to some minor issues involving Miles, whereas Bo had full on excommunicated the guy. So long as Carr stayed on, MSC figured there was nothing to be gained by challenging Bo over this and let it ride coming into 2006 when Carr was making noises about retirement but people talked him into staying.
What happened in 2008 supposedly was Carr and Martin were against Miles, but MSC ordered contact to be made and since she is the ultimate boss she had to be obeyed. Martin, a multimillionaire who has conducted many business deals on tight timetables, became suddenly incompentent (strategically so one might say) with his cellphone and Carr laid the groundwork for RR (since RR had the Nehlen link and Bo liked RR's read-option, although I assume Bo must have flipped channels during defensive series). Martin 'made a mistake' and 'lost the deal', then Carr presented RR as a viable Plan B. However Carr actually had buyer's remorse due to further interactions with RR and things went to hell as we all saw.
September 10th, 2013 at 4:25 AM ^
Well...yea that pretty much makes sense. All of it.
September 10th, 2013 at 5:06 AM ^
Well, the issue is more that we didn't pry Casteel away. West Virginia's defenses weren't terrible! Granted, Big East offenses.
Anyway, it's all moot now and I think we're all perfectly happy with the current staff. Except for the punting formation.
September 10th, 2013 at 8:11 AM ^
The only thing I cannot square is: if Martin was so adept at sidestepping Les Miles, then why were they so inept at rolling Rich Rodriguez out as a favored son of a desciple of Bo?
This was even more important because the sidestepping created an point of contention with a sizeable group of insiders so Rich was under scrutiny as a non-Michigan outsider from the moment he stepped up to the microphone.
September 10th, 2013 at 10:20 AM ^
This is actually maybe not so hard to square. Martin has a track record as a successful businessman, but I don't recall anything particular happening with FirstMartin real estate, etc, that involved a significant public relations aspect. So the working hypothesis becomes, Martin is great in the boardroom but terrible in front of the microphone. That doesn't actually seem too hard to believe. In fact, how Martin went about side-stepping Miles is in fact good evidence for this combination of traits: being "out of cell phone contact" at a critical juncture was at the same time a successful business move (given his objectives) and a move that looked terrible from a P.R. perspective.
I think one simply argues that Martin is good with numbers and bad with people, and that explains the seeming contradictions in his handling of the coaching search.
September 10th, 2013 at 10:40 PM ^
I wasn't following Michigan Football closely when RR was hired, so wasn't aware of all the ins and outs of what was going on, but I do recall seeing national news reports about the shitstorm West Virginia was stirring up about his leaving and his buyout clause. WV was acting like a spurned lover and I have to believe the negative publicity about the lawsuits and buyout clause left a bad taste in the mouths of a lot of fans.
September 10th, 2013 at 10:40 PM ^
I wasn't following Michigan Football closely when RR was hired, so wasn't aware of all the ins and outs of what was going on, but I do recall seeing national news reports about the shitstorm West Virginia was stirring up about his leaving and his buyout clause. WV was acting like a spurned lover and I have to believe the negative publicity about the lawsuits and buyout clause left a bad taste in the mouths of a lot of fans.