OT - Youth soccer questions for the board
I would normally not even think to bring a subject like this to the board, but there are several mgoparents on here and I feel like I could use a bit of advice. So......
I have a child that has played soccer at the select level for 3 years now, and the team that he's been playing with is not setting records, and they are notgoing out and getting their butts kicked either......they have been competitive.
A group of the kids are now going to a Premier League......i however am not naive enough to think that my child is "premier material" Nor do I really want to travel to such far locations for a 60 minute soccer match........ Not to mention the HUGE price difference. All clubs around my area are either in limbo right now because of this premier team that is forming, and a big part of the age group is going into 7th grade so they can start playing school soccer. So Iam looking at options (and not seeing many) that we may have that doesn't involve me driving to the east side of the state 2 -3 times a week just for practice & games. Like I said, my child is not a world beater in soccer, but I do think that if he takes the step back from select to Recreation league he may just fade away from his favorite sport.
Any suggestions from the board? Mods if this does not belong , please delete
it's called soccer.
If your child truly loves soccer he won't fade away just because you aren't driving him hours away from your home to play in a match with kids that may be above his skill set.
Back in the normal days where children were allowed to be just that, we didn't have all these travel leagues and 365 a year bullshit schedules. Seems to me kids that wanted to play a sport did it and those who didn't, didn't.
If your son loves soccer, he's going to be better off with a traveling team. The travel can be a pain in the ass, depending on where you live, but the coaches are typically professionals who can help him grow in the game. And, depending on the classification of his team, he won't be playing with pylons on his team. (At the lower levels, you can end up with kids being forced into it by their parents with no aptitude/interest, and it sucks the joy of the game right out of both the pylon and his/her teammates.) So if the expense is not too much, make the leap. You can always put him back in rec soccer after a year if you don't like it.
If your son just likes soccer, then rec can be a great option even up to age 14 or so. The quality of play is not necessarily awful, and there are less practices involved. But as the kids get older, the number of rec teams goes down and there will be some travel involved.
One part of your post did not make sense to me. Why does he have to travel "to the other side of the state" for practice? That seems out of whack, unless you live in a teensy state.
But I was throwing that out there because, as I said the clubs around here are kind of all in limbo because the premier thing is being pitched to pretty much players on all 3 club teams around me. Now, if I wanted to get him on another club, I could do that but there would be some commuting on my part just because it would not be a local club.
The biggest thing I left out was that all clubs have their try outs in a 3 day window. And my family will be out of the country on trip, so I don't have the luxury of just trying out for all the different clubs
If you have three area clubs, then you've got options which is good.
Think about what your son wants (most competitive club, a club with players he knows, a club that is supportive of players who have not yet developed, etc.) and discuss it with him. Once you know your goals, talk to parents of older kids who have been in these programs. Parents are almost always happy to talk about what they like and don't like in a local club. They are also usually familiar with the other local clubs, and will share their impressions of (a) the club, (b) the coaching, (c) the kids, and (d) the parents. I recently sat through a game where a douchey-dad was constantly screaming at the center ref, calling him a motherf***er, and - to top it off - had a comically bad understanding of the laws of the game. You don't want to spend a season with that jackass on the sideline.
BTW, there is usually no conflict between club and school soccer. Some of the US Olympic Development teams will have restrictions on playing school soccer, but in general club and school coexist - the benefit for your son being that at his age, most clubs and schools will excuse absences for games. And 9/10 kids prefer playing in games to practice.
Also, the three-day window usually overlaps to keep clubs from recruiting and to keep kids from committing to multiple clubs. It sucks to have a player qualify for three teams, and potentially deprive a borderline kid a spot on two of the teams. So the three-day window is likely by design.
I think this is the rule for most extracurriculars, not just soccer... your first few sentences are dead on. Figure out if he/she likes it, loves it or doesn't care and that will help youu determine how much you should be investing in it. I played travel for a couple years and rec for most of the rest of the time and considering I stopped playing in high school, that was plenty for me.
Since you're being that guy, maybe you have some advice about a way too early soccer question.
One of the theories about why the US is disadvantaged is the lack of cultrual default knowledge about absolute basics.
The tl;dr version is; in Europe you might see a lot of kids "throwing like a girl" because the averge adult doesn't model it the right way, and here you have kids kicking the wrong way for the same reasons.
As someone who was good at other sports but always kicked like a girl, is there a basic resource I can look at to learn to do that the right way before I teach my toddler bad habits?
Moment of fatherly pride, he's in the 97% percentile for height and weight, and his motor's always running. I'd like to be helpful if he likes a sport I'm dumb at.
Sent from MGoBlog HD for iPhone & iPad
To clarify, I don't think the reason I've said is the only reason. I think there are multiple others ones. But I think all sports are a numbers game, and this one has some merit. Also, not teaching my kid to crap kick is something I can fix. The other stuff well...he and America are on their own for that one.
I did a very similar thing with both baseball and basketball.
It was baseball when I was younger. Rec league baseball + traveling leagues going all over the state to play games every weekend.
I got burnt the eff out on baseball. I didn't play baseball in high school because I couldn't find joy in playing anymore. Traveling that much and playing all the time is tough on a kid.
I would say try to find something closer or just let them play rec league. A lot can be said for letting a kid still be a kid and do things besides sports.
That is great advice!
I know I am not a frequent poster but my daughter played rec for 2 years and travel for 7. Without a doubt, the travel is better soccer. If the player LOVES it, go with travel and deal with the travel team nonsense. If they like it and want to do other sports, stay select.
It is critical that the team has desires that align with your kid's. If the players arent on the same page, you might not find the experience as enjoyable. If half of the team is very serious about the game and the other half just luke-warm? It could be a cluster.
Tryouts for travel teams are state mandated so they will all be held on the same wekeend. A few will have overflow sessions to fill out rosters after that Sunday. Normally, you could go see the potential team and coach and train a few times to get a feel for things but if this is a new venture, that isn't an option.
It's a tough choice considering your situation. I would talk to your kid and explain the issues so they can tell you just how importnat it is to him.
Good luck!
If I understand you correctly, there are three club teams in your area that are each having players poached by a premier league team? If this is the case, I wouldnt be suprised if several of the teams end up merging. Alternatively, one option is to have your child play at an older age group, if such a team exists in your town. If all else fails, and the non-local team ends up being the best option, I would look into arranging carpools with the parents of other kids on the team. If you can make arrangements with two or three other sets of parents, you may only have to make the trip once a week.
Give them a tennis racquet. They'll be amazed at how much more fun it is than soccer.
Sent from MGoBlog HD for iPhone & iPad
Its a game you can play until youre 80 and only need 1 other person and is a sport of higher socio economic status.
Tennis babes are world class lookers too.
Sent from MGoBlog HD for iPhone & iPad
These clubs seem to blow up, and merge every so often... is it possible that a new club will form locally from those kids that don't join the Premier option? I've seen club realignments in many cities that I’m familiar with, so that may be an option also. You probably aren't the family that's not overly excited about this plan, I’d ask around and something else may be in the works...
Another option if Rec is the only possibility, play your child up an age group if that is possible (as long as you don't feel he isn't physically capable). There are other challenges and growth opportunities that your son could work on by trying to keep up with faster kids, or working on ball distribution and making his teammates better... taking on a leadership role.
Maybe the second option would fill for a season until someone could reorganize a club group in your area, or for you both to reevaluate his passion and commitment to moving on to more of a full time travel option.
We are in a similar boat where I live, none of our league games this spring are in our city (have to travel an hour and fifteen minutes) to our closest double header weekend. All tournaments are the same distance except for our end of the year blow out tournament. It's worth it for my twin 12 year olds... but I don't know how we will handle it if my 9 year old daughter steps up from developmental to travel in the fall...
Most importantly, it needs to be fun, if he isn't pulling you along with his passion then maybe you should slow down a bit.
Good Luck, see you on the pitch!
… and Go Blue!
Football is the last bastion of hope for toughness in america for men........I heard a wise man say that recently and it made a lot of sense. Wished I could remember who it was though.
Sorry just couldn't resist.
Yes, travel is a pain. But you can find other parents and carpool - they're all in the same boat as you. My daughter plays club and has started her three years HS. We also lived on the west side of MI, (now live in triangle/NC where girls soccer is practically religion). During our time in MI, she was fortunate to be with a good/great travel team that competed and beat Premier teams in the Detroit area with regularilty at tournaments but at a fraction of the cost. Once we moved to NC, she played club (a "premiere" level but not the same structure as MI) soccer and proabably wouldn't have made her varsity team as a freshman or all confernce as a JR without significant club experience.
She has an outside shot at playing in college, but I'm under no illusion that she's good enough to play at a place she'll actually want to attend - anyplace offering an athletic scholarship, anyway. My goal was to get her to play a sport, be good at it and make friends. We've accomplished this.
This was back in the late 80s, so a while ago. I started out playing spring and fall rec ball at age 6-7 and I was a really good sweeper/stopper because I just didn't give a shit about my body and attacked everything on the defensive end of the field. I was a maniac and faster than most kids my age. At those younger ages, you can get by without having any real dribbling or passing ability. I would stop a kid and just blindly boot the ball as far down field as I could. I made the travel team one year (literally last kid on the team) and it was fun, but I knew I was way worse at soccer than the other kids. I didn't really try too hard, and our team sucked anyway (never won a single game that season, outdoor or indoor).
Didn't make the travel team the next year and went back down to rec ball. I got picked up by my old rec coach that knew me from before. This team was horrid and we got smoked a minimum 6-0 every game. I think one time we lost 13-0. Our goalie was too short to jump and slap the crossbar; anything within a foot of the crossbar was going in. Rec ball at age 10-12 is different than the younger ages because you get some kids that have played for 4-5 years and were just short of making the travel team playing along side kids that have never played before -- there's a huge disparity in skill/talent. I was getting slower in comparison to other kids, and my dribbling/passing still sucked. You don't get a whole lot better playing rec ball. I got frustrated and quit soccer after that year.
Either case is sort of frustrating, but finances aside, I think I'd rather be the crappiest player on the travel team than the best player on the rec team. At least then you can get some decent coaching.
Our association has a majors program for kids who have travel-ish talent without the desire to drive 1000 miles per season. Usually a step up in coaching quality. Many majors programs are feeders for travel programs if the desire remains strong. This may bridge the gap until high school. As a longtime Rec coach I can attest to the fact that many rec coaches are there just to fill the slot, but their are some quality coaches mixed in Rec leagues as well.
Essentially we went from playing other basic, travel types of teams around the Detroit area, to more "clubish" teams with weird names like Santo Marino, Club Georgetown, The Timberwolves, or Chivas something something bull shit.
The gap wasn't so huge though that it'd be worth a ton of time and money, IMO. My suggestion would be to just make a point of sending your son to a few quality camps during the summer. That way he'll at least get a decent chunk of time in with the better coaches.
Hi, I'm an expert on the subject matter (no seriously). Have coached in this arena. From your comment it sounds like you are on the west side of Michigan (or maybe Lansing area). So you have far less options than in SE MI where there are a plethora of clubs.
Also I am unclear about your designations - generally select teams are considered travel but a lower level of play. Rec is a whole different animal and yes if you are playing select your kid will get bored playing rec as he/she will probably be one of two or three kids on the field at any time doing all the work while a lot of other kids just sort of move.
But both select and premier are considered travel - in many large clubs their "A" team is called premier and their "B" team is select. Both have similar travel schedules up to a certain age group. Usually the cost structure is not that different. Some clubs premier teams (only a few in MI) are truly going to cross state lines for a game so even most clubs premier teams your travel is limited ... I don't know what teams that play in Grand Rapids and Kalamazoo do outside of the 5-7 clubs that are out that way - maybe just play each other 2x a season.
Maybe the place you are now the select team is at a big discount to what you see for premier as the select team is at a small club? Not sure. Usually the A and B teams players pay the same cost in just about every club I've seen.
You also mentioned something about what the team is doing ala they are not world beaters but they are competitive etc. When judging if your kid is at the right level - among MANY other things - you should be playing with kids of a similar level or even slightly better than your kid. That is how your child gets better (again along with a host of other things such as quality coaching, his/her internal drive, his practice habits, if he practices at home, etc). So I'd take that as a guide of if your child is at the right "place" rather than how the team is doing. There are a bazillion divisions in some leagues and a coach could place his team in one 2 lower than they belong and go 10-0 and score 60 goals and give up 5 - everyone feels great but no one learns a damn thing or improves really. So W/L is not a judgement on progress IMO but if your child is near/similar to his peers and thus challenged daily in practice.
I guess I am trying to understand your base question - you have couched it as either I can (a) drive to the east side of the state ... or (b) pay a lot of money locally for premier. Well if you choose option a you will pay a lot of money just the same for those east side teams for premier. So I dont see why option b is the no brainer as it cuts down time and gas money.... as the actual soccer costs are not going to be too different local or on east side. But he/she has to make that premier team.
If you stay local, really the "travel" part of travel soccer is not that bad. You have a 10 (or 12) game season and half those games are on the road. All your practices are local - so 80% of your activites (all practices, and all home games) are close to home and you have to travel for 5-6 games a year on the road. On the east side that generally is a radius of 20-40 minutes for 90% of games. Unless its a truly premier team - i.e. top 10-12 in the state. So that is 5-6 weekend days a season you have to drive a medium distance, it's not bad.
Kids dont usually drive half way across the state for a premier team unless they are truly like top 30-40 in their age group and they go to a tiny handful of clubs - so that doesnt sound like your situation.
As for tryouts most clubs are having what is called an open house before tryouts - most will hold them week of June 8th - maybe you are out of town then too. Not sure but if so you can stop by there. If you had asked this earlier in May the answer is much easier - clubs are open to you dropping by and having your kid practice with a team so he can be evaluated (and you can evalute the team/club). Just go to website, contact coach, etc. You could still do that as the season doesnt end for another 5-7 days in most cases but the last practice might be next week so time is short.
Good luck in what you decide. Just remember you can never turn back time. While if you screw up and make the wrong decision, you can always say "oh well."
Yes the Novi area is brimming with quality teams - Novi, Canton, Wolves/Hawks among others. Macomb and Oakland counties are also brimming with a ton of choices. There are also a few very good ones in the Grand Rapids/Kzoo area but only so much population to support it.
What I advise parents is your experience will almost wholly be determined by your coach not the club. Of course some clubs have a much better chance of you landing a very good coach. Too many are brainwashed by very expensive clubs that they have to be in those clubs at a very early age - it's nonsense. Paying $2500+ at age 8 or 10 is a bit silly when you are going to get a very similar product for $1300-$1500 elsewhere.
Frankly a lot of the elite clubs teams are essentially recruiting houses more than development houses. The very top players from other clubs tend to gravitate to these few handful of clubs at older age groups forming these super teams but that is like age U13 and above. So if you have a very good kid at age 10, playing in this elite clubs, and you are paying $2600 a year there is a great chance your kid is going to be replaced by the very top kid from generic club ABC down the road in 2 years.
Reality is I believe a typical college program will have 6 scholarships and most of those are going to be split. So even very good players might get half a scholarship - and that's still a limited amount of players who ever play youth soccer. Just the harsh truth of the situation.
I am still confused by the differentiation of select v travel "B" team. It's really one and the same except in a few clubs that may have 3 teams at one age group. Most clubs are going to sell you as premier so you pay up so they will say "Green" team is premier, "white" team is premier, and hell our "orange" team is premier too. But if you are in specific leagues at a specific age (not the higher leagues) you are basically a select team no matter how they label it. The one exception to this is a few of the very top end clubs B teams are good enough to beat a lot of other clubs A teams and hence I'd still consider it premier. But again in MOST clubs the cost is the same if you play on a A or B team so whatever the label doesnt matter much. It's all premier from what they charge you.
If your 9 year old girl is playing up 3 age groups that is when you probably need to consider moving to another club with better peer group. I think they dont even allow that on the east side in the main league - I think the maximum is 2. But that's impressive.
We live in Indiana. Things are organized a bit different around here. I didn't realize that select is still considered travel in Michigan. Select is a league that is between Rec and Travel here. Teams are mostly local and games are generally held at the same location each week. Cost is about $80 per season. Teams can be pretty good because a lot of the kids are good players who don't want to make the time, travel, and fiscal commitment to do travel.
My daughter plays for one of the top clubs in the state and definitely the best in the area. Fees start at around $1000 and increase as they get older and based on the level of team they play for.
As for my daughter's ability and the fact that she plays up, well I am a little bias! She is physically and mentally gifted for her age. I also realize that lots of things change as young girls mature. She knows that someone is always working hard to be better than her. But for now, she wants to be the best and I will do whatever I can to help her achieve her goals. If things change, I can always go back to hunting and fishing more often!
Yes Michigan doesn't have select like that i.e. an "in between level". Hence my confusion at the OP a bit. To charge more everything is called premier here even ...well barely travel teams. In house we might call it select but everything is about charging a price so publicly its premier I suppose. In my mind it is really what level of travel you play and league - the top leagues and top divisions of secondary/qualifying leagues are premier and then the mid tier to lower level of those secondary leagues are select. Although not called that officially.
$1000 for a full year is dirt cheap. I know Michigan for some reason is generally more expensive than a lot of states - someone mentioned NC in the thread and I was looking at some clubs down there and by and large it was 30% cheaper than a typical Michigan club. Now with that said in Michigan and other northern states you have to pay extras for indoor soccer games and indoor soccer facilities to practice. But Indiana would be no different. Sounds like Michigan is a lot more like NJ in terms of cost for club soccer.
If your daugher is faster and "larger" then girls her age it is probably better for her to play up in age because what tends to happen across all of youth soccer (and why our teams lack creativity at the senior level) is kids tend to rely on physical superiority . They will rely more on sprinting and direct play which just overwhelms a lot of teams without similar athletes. But eventually at some point everyone catches up in physical mold and you are left with the skill set. Which unfortunately due to the way we focus on "winning" at youth soccer levels rather than developing (parents are partly the problem here too as they think winning = development) retards the whole system. Of course there is a happy medium, if you go 2-8 every year people will lose morale. So regarding your daughter if she can play with girls her size/speed then she can't just focus on overwhelming them with her physical attributes and has to work more on skill set. That said, I just have not heard of a girl playing up 3 years in premier in my time so maybe you have the next Mia Hamm there. ;)
Indiana has some really good clubs - I know Carmel United used to be one but I dont see a website for them anymore so I bet they merged with someone else by now. That's the only constant in youth soccer, constant flux of clubs haha.
Select is the travel league of WSSL (who have a rec component too), Premier is the league name for MSPSL. Many clubs are tired of the bs that comes with Premier, and the lack of competition in WSSL and have gone to play in the more flexible MSDSL league.
Right - at older age groups I agree with that allocation. But at younger age groups the really top teams still play in those "qualifying leagues". MYSL is basically WSSL (but bigger) for the east side.
If you are U9, U10 though there are a lot of elite teams playing in those leagues because MSPSP has not started. Although now they have started something called Director's Academy for U11/U12. And there is also MRL when kids are older. It is difficult now to keep track of it all.
My Dad drove me around the state practically every weekend for BMX races. These are my best memories of our time together.
Do it.
It's interesting to see how soccer has evolved. My son is 7 and travel soccer (here in NJ) is all the rage. Can't believe people are paying $2-3k for their kids to play travel in 3rd grade. However , all these travel teams have effectively killed Rec soccer. As far as I know, at least in my area, Rec is done by 5th or 6th grade. Simply not enough kids signing up. They are either in travel, or have hung up their soccer shoes for good.
If your son loves playing soccer, who knows, he might surprise you with the right coaching.
It is amazing how big of a business it has become. I am also amazed at people paying $2600-$3000 a year at age 8 or 9. If your kid is truly special he won't be held back by playing at a "good" club at ages 8, 9, 10, 11, etc and paying $1300 a year... by age 12-13 you will have a good idea if he needs to migrate to one of the superclubs and pay those super fees.
$2800 v $1300 doesnt sound like a lot but that is $1500 a year and if your kid plays soccer from age 7 to 17 that's $15,000 plus interest.... that could at least pay for a year of college (or two) so you sort of create your own scholarship fund just by shopping smart. But understandably parents think higher prices must mean better product so these top end clubs have really created a good marketplace for themselves. I can't even imagine what hockey parents must pay if soccer is costing this much for travel.
Rec is not done here by 5th or 6th grade but yes the better kids will filter out to travel and you are left with sparse leagues where the product is not really that much soccer but more kicking and chasing.
wrestling, baseball, hockey, football, tennis, track, etc. take him hunting or fishing or camping with you. much more important than sitting in cars/suv's to nowhere.
Sent from MGoBlog HD for iPhone & iPad
We had 3 sons. I coached (up to U-14) and was a referee (HS and club teams). My wife and I did not allow our oldest to join a travel team prior to HS but because of the local program, the recreational teams were very good. He played HS soccer, joined a premier travel team, and then played Divison III soccer. #2 played on low-level travel teams and his HS team. #3 turned to football in HS. We pretty much supported their decisions and aspirations and did not push them in any particular direction. All in all, we were pleased with the outcomes. I can say the coaching and level of committment are much higher for the better travel teams.
See what he wants to do.
Find a good coach regardless of the league. Your kid will get better from quality practices more so than anything else. Tournaments can be a better use of time to play games than leagues.
Talk to the parents of kids who play on the local high school. They can tell you where you son needs to play to be competitive. High school soccer is a good goal for most but competition levels vary wildly depending on how strong the local clubs are .
Forget scholarships. If thAt is why you want your kid to play sports, rather invest here : www.misaves.com .
There are other 529 plans better than the michigan one unless a huge portion of your investment calculus is the tax break you get from paying Michigan state taxes. Even if you're going for the tax break you might be better off by first putting it into this plan for taxes and then rolling it into another state's plan that invests the money more creativly and has cheaper fees. I really like the Utah plan, for example.