OT: Why does MHSAA allow private schools to play against public schools in HS football playoffs?
November 30th, 2014 at 8:36 AM ^
It's probably tradition but I agree that some private schools -- Brother Rice, Orchard Lake St Mary's etc -- are prep machines. That said I imagine that are more schools like that out east.
November 30th, 2014 at 8:40 AM ^
You only need to look at Muskegon CC. I'm not an insider, but I imagine they're picking up numerous kids who would otherwise be back ups for the local Class A & B schools. Its really sort of a mockery that they compete with Division 8 public schools
November 30th, 2014 at 8:49 AM ^
You are exactly right. Most Catholic players have been in the system their whole lives but there is always 1-4 players on that team that have transferred because they were backups at Muskegon, Shores, or Heights. Fact.
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November 30th, 2014 at 9:11 AM ^
I know that "most" of Muskegon Catholic's players probably came up through catholic school ranks. However, I also know that they have a few kids that didn't. When you are playing against teams that have maybe a pool of 100 boys to pick from to try to field a varsity and JV team, having just 3 or 4 kids with talent to see time at a larger school is HUGE.
Edit: This was meant to be a reply to Nowicki's post below.
November 30th, 2014 at 9:42 AM ^
I assumed you weren't replying to me haha.
November 30th, 2014 at 4:01 PM ^
no, we don't.
90-95% of the kids on this most recent team are children of former mcc students or have been in the system since they were in first grade. unless we're really good at recruiting six-year-olds it's just not happening.
as to the 'geographic area' argument, that doesn't fly, either. schools of choice made that go away for public schools years ago.
November 30th, 2014 at 5:00 PM ^
Otherwise MCC might as well declare itself D9 so that it can be the champ every year.
November 30th, 2014 at 10:37 PM ^
We'll play any one, any time, any where.
November 30th, 2014 at 6:45 PM ^
Compete against schools restricted to their district. It's flat out wrong.
November 30th, 2014 at 8:40 AM ^
Don't expect anything logical from MHSAA. They just don't operate that way.
If it's policy, they'll never (okay, rarely) be inclined to change it.
The leadership at MHSAA, in any situation, will always succeed in making the wrong decision.
November 30th, 2014 at 8:59 AM ^
When I lived in Michigan, it seemed like every single decision the MHSAA ever made was designed to screw a school, a coach or an athlete. They always seemed to interpret any rules question in the most severe way possible. I can't imagine them being much different now.
November 30th, 2014 at 8:42 AM ^
the only state like that.
There are many and this topic comes up every year
Haven't heard a reason why.
November 30th, 2014 at 9:10 AM ^
Membership in HS athletic associations are based on enrollment not on tuition. In some states, the private schools sued or threatened to sue if they were not allowed entry.
The equation for determining the level at which teams compete must change. Associations around the country have talked about multipliers, free and reduced lunch counts, urban population, etc.
November 30th, 2014 at 8:44 AM ^
most of the private schools aren't recruiting kids. LCC doesn't recruit kids its just called tradition and hard working families sacrificing money for their kids to get into a more disciplined school with the religious side coming into play for some families.
Yes there are a few schools that do kind of recruit kids but most of your private schools just have a lot of tradition with multiple generations of kids going there resulting in a lot of pride.
plus, its not like kids go to Muskegon cc to get to the d1 level, maybe those families just want a better school system foe their kids.
November 30th, 2014 at 8:47 AM ^
Kids don't go to MCC to go to D1 but I know for a fact of a few people have transferred from Shores, Muskegon, and the Heights to Catholic just for a better chance at getting noticed by any college.
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November 30th, 2014 at 9:16 AM ^
its not to play football though and they aren't being recruited its to give their kids the best chance for a bright future
November 30th, 2014 at 9:24 AM ^
That is still an unfair recruiting advantage that public schools cannot compete with.
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November 30th, 2014 at 9:36 AM ^
False. That "advatange" cuts both ways. I work at a private school and we often lose athletes who want the exposure and challenge of a D1 school. (Especially since most private schools are much smaller than public counterparts)
November 30th, 2014 at 11:17 AM ^
Indeed. Not to mention $$ from the state to build facilities. We are in a 3 year $$ raising campaign to build new athletic facilities, all dependent upon our parents or anyone who would like to donate.
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November 30th, 2014 at 9:53 AM ^
My wife teaches and her district is all open enrollment. The coach up here would go to 8th grade schools and practices and send kids postcards encouraging them to come to his school.
Harrison, iirc, got mill Coleman from *way* out of district.
The idea that all public schools can't or don't recruit is false.
November 30th, 2014 at 10:36 AM ^
Yep, Mill Coleman was from Albion. My dad took me to see him play against our HS when I was young and he was starting as a freshman on varsity. He was that good that young. I remember the rumor we heard was that his dad lost his job so they moved to Detroit area. Of course that is what they would say if Harrison recruited him away as well.
November 30th, 2014 at 12:31 PM ^
Inkster operated this way too, hence why Devin went there
November 30th, 2014 at 10:58 AM ^
and the recruiting part is the exception rather than the rule. From my understanding, alot of Michigan school systems have school of choice so students can live in one district and attend school in another. Also didn't Lawence Marshall switch schools to play with Malik McDowell. Isn't that the type of "recruiting" everyone in public schools complains about?
November 30th, 2014 at 3:06 PM ^
because of some issues at Detroit Loyola.
November 30th, 2014 at 4:04 PM ^
schools of choice is available to public schools. mona shores made a run to ford field due in large part to kids who came over from muskegon heights. every school in muskegon county got some of those kids.
November 30th, 2014 at 9:45 AM ^
False, it's expensive to go to MCC. Most kids that transfer into MCC transfer because of athletic reasons. Very rarely will someone transfer to MCC after going through public schools their whole life, unless they were kicked out of every other school in the area because of disciplinary reasons.
November 30th, 2014 at 10:07 AM ^
and that's why the private schools have scholarships--need-based and clearly athletically based. Country Day is one obvious example. The powerhouse Catholic and Christian schools do as well. Check out Orchard Lake St. Mary's football team and then remember where it is located. I can't speak personally about the west side, but I'd be shocked if it were different. The alternative is to presume Catholic kids are simply better football players, or the whole religious discipline canard. That said, I don't believe this applies to all private schools. I agree that Lansing Catholic does not have a reputation for recruiting. And while it has been very good under a very good coach, there have been many years when LCC was very bad.
November 30th, 2014 at 10:22 AM ^
Private schools do not have athletic scholarships, per se.
Most private schools have financial aid endowments that award need-based scholarships to admitted students. Students and families have to fill out forms similar to the college FAFSA.
Students are then awarded scholarships based on need. Of course, a lot of times, some superior athletes are also at the low end of the econonmic spectrum. And, here's where it gets murky, some kind of comittee may have to make decisions to "equal applicants" in deciding how every available financial need penny gets split up.
Since you mentioned DCC:
http://www.dcds.edu/uploaded/admissions/financing_a_country_day_educati…
If a top level athlete is transferring to DCC but comes from a well-off family, he/she is not getting an athletic scholarship.
November 30th, 2014 at 11:21 AM ^
From a few DCDS athletes I know, it is not uncommon for coaches to interact with the financial aid committee to ensure packages are sufficient to attract and maintain those athletes. The notion that financial aid is solely need-based is a farce.
November 30th, 2014 at 12:16 PM ^
kinda not relevant to the athletes actually showing up from Detroit. Country Day was a joke athletic program before Division 1 athletes just "started showing up" like Webber. Just a coincidence, I think not. Yes, the need factor is the tool schools like Country Day use to improve their athletic programs.
November 30th, 2014 at 10:44 AM ^
Because I did, and everyone I know who transfered did come from public schools their whole lives. And if you want to send your kid there but are afraid of the costs, they will work with you through financial aid to make it more affordable. If you don't live in the North Muskegon or the Spring Lake district, I don't blame parents for wanting to send their kids there due to academics. It's not always about sports. As for football, it annoys me every single year when this recruiting crap comes up. The star QB and best lineman this year are the sons of a long time teacher at MCC. The star RB surpassed his father's records at MCC this year. Last year, the all-state RB's father played at MCC. I can do this for just about every person on this team and previous teams. I graduated almost 10 years ago and I can recognize almost everyone's name on the roster just because I know all of their families. It's called tradition. Great coaching and 100% committed, hardworking players will win championships for you. Maybe other schools should try it.
November 30th, 2014 at 11:03 AM ^
I don't think MCC recruits at all. I never said that. I just think kid's parents push their kids to transfer so that they get exposed in sports. That's my opinion. You can disagree with me if you want. I just know of a few examples of kids transferring in to get college coaches to notice them because they weren't playing enough at the bigger schools.
November 30th, 2014 at 5:38 PM ^
The teams they play in D8 are all rural communities with total district populations of 1,000 or less and under 200 HS enrollment. Even if MCC doesn't recruit, the fact that they draw from a much larger talent pool and have the ability to exercise discretion with respect to admissions and scholarships gives it a huge competitive advantage. Honestly, I'm surprised they haven't requested to play in a higher division since they faced absolutely no competition whatsoever in the D8 playoffs. Same story with Detroit Loyola in D7. At the very least it would have been nice to see Loyola and MCC face off in the playoffs.
November 30th, 2014 at 9:18 AM ^
It's not necessarily recruiting. Note I neither said that nor did I intend to imply it. The advantage comes in being able to take kids from an unlimited geographic area while public schools are locked into a set and usually small geographic area. I don't question that most kids join these programs because they want to play for a great team as opposed to being actively recruited by the coaches. That said, that's an advantage over public schools who can only take the kids who live in their district.
November 30th, 2014 at 9:28 AM ^
Your premise is flawed. Michigan has school of choice so public schools are not locked into just the kids in their district. I know Holt went from decent athleticly to well above average after choice came in because of all the parents from lansing sending their kids to holt because it was close enough to drive but a lot better district.
November 30th, 2014 at 10:01 AM ^
Not all schools are school of choice. Generally only the academically weak ones or schools in areas that have had declining enrollment allow open enrollment. If a school is full based on its own residents (which I know mine is) there is no school of choice option. Others allow some movement within a district with multiple high schools but again, the academically strong ones are generally not open for transfer in. Yes many of the public schools that are in less desirable areas fit those criteria and some have good football. That said, private schools receive the advantage of providing good academics with good athletics. If schools like say the Birmingham schools could openly choose to take who they wanted from Southfield based on athletic talent or the Grosse Pointes could take from Detroit as they chose, wouldn't parents avail themselves of those options. Also, couple in the concepts of free spending on coaching and facilities that public schools can't answer (at least in this state) and I think you're being naive or intentionally blind to say there isn't an advantage.
On top of that, SCOREBOARD! I believe the statistic is one private school for every ten public schools in Michigan yet private schools won seven of the eight state championships. How do you refute that?
November 30th, 2014 at 10:10 AM ^
but Holt hasn't been better since they started taking school of choice kids. The football program has actually been worse.
November 30th, 2014 at 10:31 AM ^
because everyone around them has gotten better through school of choice like Okemos.
They should also quit playing Rockford and Hudsonville as their two non-conference games every year. They're 1-9 in those games. Schedule someone else they can beat and they have 3 more playoff appearances in the last 5 years alone.
November 30th, 2014 at 12:10 PM ^
the local teams like they used to.--and Holt is the biggest school in the area (much bigger in most cases than the local schools they play). Same with basketball. Sexton is still very good in football. Okemos isn't benefitting athletically from schools of choice. It was marginally better this year--almost certainly because they have a better coach in Wallace.
November 30th, 2014 at 12:28 PM ^
This is pretty much the stock answer that all private school supporters give to justify what they do.
November 30th, 2014 at 12:32 PM ^
It's not a stock answer, it's true.
I went to public school my whole life. I now work at a private school. We don't recruit. At all, in no way.
I understand the perception - I had it when I was a kid and we had to go through private schools in districts and regionals, but the idea that there's constant recruiting going on - especially at established programs - is vastly overblown.
November 30th, 2014 at 1:37 PM ^
Whether or not they recruit kids is beside the point. They can draw from a much larger geographical area than the public schools, which is a major advantage in itself. And whether or not they recruit, it's a lot easier to get a kid to switch schools when it's a private school - the family doesn't have to move.
I went to a private school in the Detroit area. We had kids from practically every city in the tri-county area. Obviously, that was a potential advantage for us in sports. We weren't that gung-ho about sports glory, but there are some schools that are, and the athletes know about them.
November 30th, 2014 at 8:45 AM ^
Vast majority of michigan private schools aren't recruiting per se so it's not seen as advantage. It's amazing how things change...20 yrs ago private schools wanted separate divisions bc couldn't compete. Now as many public systems lose students to private schools it's flipped around.
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November 30th, 2014 at 8:45 AM ^
Private schools have a big advantage in HS football. They can go out and recruit the players they want. Funny how its the opoosite in College football
November 30th, 2014 at 8:51 AM ^
It doesn't bother me that Muskegon has to play private schools in the finals every year they make it. Muskegon did lose the last three years in the finals to catholic schools (twice to BBR and last night to OLSM) but they beat OLSM and WDLS twice in the finals the previous three championship runs (2004, 2006, 2008) and the games they lost have been competitive. The top 3 divisions have perennial power houses that more than hold their own. I do feel bad for the smaller schools though. They don't have the talent pool and resources to compete against private programs who field teams that could play in the top divisions.
November 30th, 2014 at 8:54 AM ^
Muskegon Catholic Central is D8 because they have been extremely close to shutting down that school numerous times in the last decade. A big time anonymous donor (alum) who has passed keeps that school going. That school needs a lot of upgrades but it barely stays open. That's why they are D8. The kids who grow up in the area are surrounded by division 1-4 teams though. That's why the talent is so good.
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November 30th, 2014 at 4:12 PM ^
Back in the 1970s MCC was a class B school competing in the Lake Michigan Athletic Conference, LMAC, with 5 class A schools (Grand Haven, Muskegon, Mona Shores, Traverse City and Benton Harbor) so they certainly were not 'ducking' anyone back then. They were good then too, as were Muskegon and TC. When I was a freshman I was a captain for that game, and when my co-captain and I went out for the coin toss we were dwarfed by the MCC captains. They took it to us.
They must be struggling financially if they have dropped clear down to Division 8 (which I presume is a small class D school from my day) from Class B.
November 30th, 2014 at 4:12 PM ^
Back in the 1970s MCC was a class B school competing in the Lake Michigan Athletic Conference, LMAC, with 5 class A schools (Grand Haven, Muskegon, Mona Shores, Traverse City and Benton Harbor) so they certainly were not 'ducking' anyone back then. They were good then too, as were Muskegon and TC. When I was a freshman I was a captain for that game, and when my co-captain and I went out for the coin toss we were dwarfed by the MCC captains. They took it to us.
They must be struggling financially if they have dropped clear down to Division 8 (which I presume is a small class D school from my day) from Class B.
November 30th, 2014 at 8:57 AM ^
happened, private schools would have to travel great distances to play their counterparts, the cost of which borne by tuition & donations, not taxpayer money like purblic schools. Also, some great rivalries would die.