Plenty of non-UM sports going on and after reading the box score from last night's loss to KC, I'm curious what some Detroit area locals think about what's going on with JV. I don't live in the area, so I can't see the FSD broadcasts of the games. Can someone shed some light on what is going on with him? I recall a couple seasons ago he went through a tough period where he was supposedly tipping his pitches. Is he experiencing more of the same or is just getting rocked right now, lost his confidence?
OT: What's up with Justin Verlander?
He got paid son. He don't need to try no more.
It might be time for him to go the way of John Smoltz and become a closer in the near future. He still has some good stuff but the third time throught line up this year teams are batting over .300 against him. He is probably still too young for this line of thinking but watching him struggle is new for Tigers fans.
Just a thought.
but the few times I've seen him, he looks like he still has his velocity. And if what you think is true, then thats quite a drop off from the past two seasons. Its hard to imagine following up with his Cy Young season of 2012, last year wasn't quite as good, but he still had decent command. What we're seeing this year looks more than just a waning of production...but I do see what you're saying.
Yeah, I was just throwing it out there. I doubt he would like the idea and it may not make much sense but he would be a serious upgrade over Nathan at the very least.
If he was tipping his pitches, I would think it would have been corrected by now. Probably has something to do with the fact he got paid, he has a significant other outside of baseball now, and he's also 31 years old.
He had a significant other when he threw his first no-hitter, when the Tigers won the pennant.
He had his current significant other when he dominated the A's in the playoffs.
I could go on. Please lose the TMZ attitude.
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Just like Verlander's fastball
I think the problem is that opponents are finding his fastball a little too easily.
has been giving him tips.
My bad... looks like the URL caught an extra space at the end of it in my link.
He is taking the normal career arch of a baseball player that isn't juiced up. Or maybe he still isn't 100% after off season surgery. It's the million dollar question in Detroit.
*multi-million dollar question
This thread is just begging for a slew of Kate Upton pics/gifs.
because she is gorgeous.
What's with all the same threads asking what's wrong with JV?
Because we care. And because its the off-season? I'm asking because its now two starts in a row with 7 earned runs given up.
I hasten to add that he stil has a good fastball--but he does not have a Justin Verlander fastball anymore. He is usally around 93-95 tops now, which is a significant difference from a couple of years back when he was hittibng 99-100 in the 7th and 8th innings when he needed it. He can't get up there anymore, and I think he's struggling because he's trying to adjust to life where he can't blow the fastball past guys. But his stuff is still very good, and a 94 fastball is also still good, so I think he will get it straightened out.
or attempted to--the difference you cite in still 5 mph, which in MLB is considerable. Two years ago he regularly hit 99 at the same point in games
According to fangraphs PitchF/X his average fastballs velocities in a given season are thus:
He can still run it up there but he has lost some velocity since his best years in '09-'12. This is probably a combo of everything people have cited so far: age, innings load, injury, motivation and work ethic. If he wants to be one of the best again he's gonna have to learn to pitch smarter not harder because his best stuff is probably behind him now.
So everyone saying the same shit makes a difference now?
It keeps giving and giving, day in and day out. New game each day. Its glorious.
Command, he doesn't have it.
SPOTTING: Verlander and Upton at somerset mall..life=made pic.twitter.com/XHvbbpHWaE
— Maggie McElroy (@Maggie_McElroy) June 16, 2014
Supposedly taken around 3:30pm yesterday before the game. Shouldn't he be at the park preparing and practicing, instead he's with his "girl". Dude used to be my favorite player, I could give 2 shits about the guy at this point.
What does green sandals have to do with it?
He has sandals to match all of his shirts or was he just lucky yesterday?
I think this does provide valuable information. He should be at the ball park at this time.
Not really. Unless we know that he has changed his pre-game routine this is meaningless. Pitchers are notorious for having a very specific gameday routine and his could very well be that he arrives two hours before the game. The point is, we have no fucking clue.
actually it shows that he could care less about game day and apparently he'd rather be at a mall 3 1/2 hrs before game time but that is just my MO
If he were not pitching that day, fine. But on a day where he's supposed to be starting, I'd think he should be elsewhere - at least where there are no distractions like a huge mall. I'm beginning to think his main problem is related to focus and concentration on and off the field - not some problem with his arm or shoulder. Just my opinion, nothing else.
God, please stop the stupid.
What the fuck is he going to do at the ballpark 3.5 hours before the game starts. Seriously, answer that question without the following:
1. Watch tape - He watches tape every non-start day for hours.
2. Stretch - He obviously is on a strict stretching routine.
3. Warm-up - See above.
What else? Why does he need to be at the park more than 3.5 hours before the game starts. Will he be a better pitcher if he sits in the dugout and takes a nap instead of having his normal night game routine? Would he pitch better if he played ping pong in the clubhouse for an hour before the game?
Where were the complaints about Verlander's game-day Taco Bell before he got to the park before this year?
Enough of this awful, logicless, TMZ/voyeur bullshit.
EDIT: Also, the picture was taken at 3:14 at the latest. That means he could have easily been at CoPa by 4pm, which is 3 hours before the game. Somerset to CoPa is a 30 min drive at most.
People are so f'ing stupid with their "players aren't focused because they weren't at the park 10 hours before the game" bullshit. The dude has been pitching his whole life. How many hours does he need to show up before the game to get locked in?
Ausmus needs to pull him into his office and give him a vision test with a notepad and sharpie. Fixes everything.
They should send them to Toledo to get his confidence and command back.
He's not eligible to be sent down unless he's injured and going for a rehab assignment.
Tell me about it, he's screwing me in my fantasy league!
Before we wanna make JV the next John Smoltz. Smoltz only became a closer/reliever after having Tommy John surgery. Without the injury, he woulda always been a starter. It had nothing to
Do with tired arm or struggles.
My guess on JV is that his offseason is spent more on his personal life and not on baseball like it was in the past. Dude got paid, got a hot ass girlfriend and I'm guessing his weight lifting and long toss sessions are not as long as they were in say 2010. Probably why his arm strength is down. His command isn't there, because his confidence is down. Same thing happened last year. Started the year strong and confident and then struggled to find it in the May and June. Then when they needed him the most in September and October, he got it back.
You do know his offseason consisted of double groin surgery right? That might have altered exactly how much training he could do this winter.
His K's are down (6.4/9 vs career # of 8.4/9)
His BB are up (3.8/9 vs career # of 2.8/9)
This is typcial of a pitcher who doesn't have the same stuff.
Beyond that I can't say as I haven't seen a ton of him throwing, but I'd cast a suspicous gaze toward that 2011 season where he threw 251 innings plus another 20 in the post season. It was one of the best seasons seen in MLB in recent years. Then he followed it up in 2012 with 238 innings plus 28 more in the post season.
By 2013 his #'s look like a solid starter in a 2 or 3 spot, but not the ace he was previously. This year, he's stepped down another notch.
are you saying that he pumped out too many innings in 2011 and 2012 and he's getting worn out? If so, curious...I think you're onto it. Along with some other things folks are mentioning...
do they normally let the guy try and pitch through the control issues, or is it concievable to shut him down midseason for a couple of weeks to see if it isn't fatigue related?
...that's what I'm wondering too. He's been starting games ok been then getting rocked on the 2nd & 3rd times through the order. Maybe he needs the rest of a few weeks off? Perhaps a trip to the DL?
I don't know...but there was some speculation that the offseason surgery messed up his offseason workout routine and that he just isn't in as good of shape as he normally would be.
is that in the past few years, even when he was pitching well (overall) he'd sometimes get rocked in the first inning, then settle down and get into a groove. And then last 8-9 innings...
While his early innings have been OK, he is throwing a lot of pitches to get there. Typically by the fourth inning he is around 70 pitches. Also, it seems like when he has two strikes on batters they stand in and foul off pitch after pitch. He doesn't have the 100mph pitch that he can call up anymore.
I'm afraid his days of power pitching are over. He will either learn to win with control and experience or he will be a .500 pitcher from here on.
Being asked for the 3rd time now and the 2nd time in two weeks. And the jersey number threads in June vs. August.
We've gotten off to a REALLY bad start this summer.
If your thread title is a random thought or OT question...it can probably be asked/discussed IN a thread vs. AS a thread.
Who made me police? No one. I'm not being a dick, just trying to help.
As for Justin, if I got paid lifetime millions and was consistently banging a super model...I'd lose focus too. Hell, if I got paid just ONE million OR banged a super model (once)...I'd lose focus.
what's the point of a blog anyway? To talk about stuff, right? I mean, we talk endlessly (thankfully) about football during football season. What's wrong about talking about baseball during baseball season? Sorry if you're being overwhelmed with baseball talk, most of us claim the Tigers as the hometown team. I was asking some specific questions about what others are seeing that I cannot because I can't watch the games.
But when something has already been discussed...that's not the point at all. You're doing it wrong at that point.
We literally just had this EXACT question asked.
It has nothing to do with the Tigers. I was born and raised in Detroit, I love the Tigers...so cut the hometown bullshit.
If I started a thread on what's wrong with our offensive line every week, it would grow tiresome too. And this is a Michigan blog.
But, what's the point of a blog anyway, right?
hometown bullshit? I was simply pointing out the connection of Michigan blog, Detroit team, majority of the readers...that's all. I wasn't trying to tug at your heart strings. Its obvious that doens't work well anyway. So sue me...I was on vacation up until a couple days ago, I didn't see the last threads. And like I said before, I had specific questions about what folks are seeing that I can't. I'm trying not to make this an emotional event, but you're not giving me any room to work with here... EDIT: I've never had any issues with you in the past, I really don't want to start now. I will be more judicious with my post topics and keep it to fresh material unless its something I really want to talk about. Deal?
Nor am I the police. I would think that every disappointing start by our multi-year, multi-million dollar ace is thread worthy. In theory, that which troubled him in his last couple starts could be the furthest thing from what's bothering him in this most recent start. Command, velocity, pitch count, pitching to a lineup of mostly lefties or righties, Billy Butler all have an affect on JV and his performance(s). Though he didn't specify that he wanted to know what was wrong with his start yesterday in a vacuum, it's not a reach to think that might have been something he was looking for since, as he stated, he can't watch the games.
Though I will say, I do get tired of the whole "he has a supermodel GF" excuse. Far too simplistic. That's akin to saying "he musta been out partying too much last night" when Cabrera goes 0-4 or something.
Simply because I disagree...but I respect your opinion.
That has been posted and commented on a million times.
However, posting about people who post about people with repeats...THAT has not. So I win.
Has everything to do with the fact that it was asked last week.
Again, if I made a thread on our offensive line woes...in the same vein as this thread. It would grow tiresome as well.
I swear I'm not trying to pick a fight. But to use your example, you very well could ask what's wrong with our OL every week. Every week it's a different look they're getting on D. So many moving parts. I would love to hear some of the more insightful comments as to why JV is struggling from one start to the next or why our OL played terribly from one week to the next. If people could actually spell that out as opposed the the one-line zingers that get repeated ad nauseum when topics like this come up, this discussion would actually be compelling as opposed to annoying.
Is that even a word or how you spell it?
Anyway, I'd get destroyed if I posted a thread about our OL every week.
I've never played competitive soccer. I enjoyed playing it with friends but I played basketball and baseball competitively, never soccer.
So, when I come on this site and I see WC open threads, or Brian's main posts about the upcoming matches, do you know what I do?
I don't click on them because I don't care to read them. It's really quite easy actually. Give it a go and see if it works out for you.
regression but he also had core muscle surgery which interupted his off season training in addition to being something that takes time to recover from. He seems to be getting hit hard more towards the end of games and to me that says his stamina isn't there. It could be a Kate problem. I think he's being left in the games too long whatever the reason is for his stamina issues.
I hope he gets it together this year like he did in September last year. I have a feeling we may have to wait until spring to determine if it's age or the surgery.
Not sure but it makes me sad.
and Kate ain't happy about that.
But, of course, he should seek medical attention if the game lasts over four hours.
Looking at Fangraphs, you see some troubling stuff certainly:
Ks per 9 innings - it has fallen 28.93% so far from last year from 8.95 to 6.36 per 9 ninnings.
BBs per 9 innings - this is up 18.25% over last year so far, 3.09 to 3.78 BBs per 9 innings
BA against - this is now at .282, up from .251 last year, which in turn is up from .215 in 2012
WHIP - this is up to 1.56 from 1.31 last year, at least with the most current data
K/BB ratio - it was 2.89 last year, but it has fallen to 1.68 as of this morning.
The full stats are here - (LINK)
I'm only slightly worried but I think I am more concerned at this point with the up and down (mostly down) relief pitching. Until JV stinks it up in the playoffs, I'm not going to panic.
Cue that one poster who says Kate Upton is hideous.
He is not done, but he is not what his contract says he is, and probably never again
He's throwing batting practice. No movement because that killer instinct had left him. Perhaps that's a product of a huge contact, age, or a prickly clubhouse under a new manager. Who knows, but hopefully it gets fixed before this season is lost.
From locking up Max for years. Verlander needs to move down in the rotation until he gets it.
Long term offer, not the other way around, right?
...I feel more confident with Porcello on the mound as compared to JV. I hope that Justin can right the ship, and soon, because this division is getting ULTRA competitive now.
Brady Hoke syndrome
Can't throw every pitch as hard as you can and expect to last.
JV needs to develop an arsenal of pitches in the 70-80mph range or he's decline will be rather rapid.
Making millions playing a game, what is wrong with him?
He's definitely struggling, but it also feels like a bit of bad luck. The surgery seems to have taken more out of him than people thought, so perhaps he'll recover after this rough stretch. But my gut says he's getting up there in age and as a picture who relies so heavily on his fastball and out-powering the hitters, it's tough when your fastball loses a couple of MPH.
I was at the game last night, so I got to see his latest debacle first-hand.
- He's only 31. He still should be in his prime (not the middle of it, but def a couple more years). Plenty of pitchers (Halladay, Sabathia, Shields, Lee, Wainright, etc) have done very well/excelled at that age. Now perhaps JV is different, but if so, whoo boy -- the Tigers are in trouble.
- He did have bad luck last night , such as the sawed off, broken bat "hit" that loaded the bases. But Infante's homer was a no-doubter, and he's not exactly Babe Ruth. Plus, JV had plenty of good luck (e.g., guy leaving 2nd base early to get double off on a fly out to center field; Davis throwing a guy out at the plate).
So it's not really bad luck, but bad pitching. His control has been poor and he hasn't been stirking nearly enough people out.
If he doesn't fix it within the next couple of starts, I'd be all for the Tigers sitting him out for 2-3 weeks so he can rest / work on mechanics / whatever. Right now, he's really hurting the team (which is shocking thing to say for someone so talented).
I wouldn't say "only 31". ESPN had a talking head say Verlander had thrown the largest number of pitches over the last x number of years, by a good margin. There are a lot of miles on that arm. (Sorry can't remember how many years).
He's 89-94 instead of 93-99. 5mph makes your secondary pitches that much better. Not really locating the fastball that great either.
He was 95 to 96 last night .
But getting behind on the hitters (game I saw earlier in the season) leads to either walks where you have to pitch from the stretch, or hitters knowing they are going to get a fastball and don't account for/protect against that they could be getting a breaking ball or a change of pace.
When you pitch from the stretch, its a totally different motion and the pitcher has to develop a lot more power without the rhythm of a windup and basically body weight going downhill at home plate. Stretch has to be a fast less controlled motion too otherwise every team will cherry pick 2nd base.
So its sort of a rich-get-richer/poor-get-poorer proposition. Runners on base via hits or walks makes it harder to pitch with rhythm and power. Losing a bit of snappy fastball or the ability to paint up the corners makes it harder to get out of innings already going wrong.
Go for long enough with control issues and it starts to affect a pitcher's brain. Having mental toughness on the mound is 50% of the battle there. I don't know what he's feeling because of the injury, if not totally healed he could be unknowingly trying to compensate for its weakness or pain.
What's up with Tigers Pitching in general?
61 pitches in two innings. 2 home runs. 7 earned runs.
I'm not so sure I buy into the loads of innings pitched argument. Felix Hernandez over the last five years has pitched about 14 fewer innings total.
I think it has more to do with Verlander aging, his velocity on his fastball is declining, and being that he is typically a power pitcher, he hasn't adapted to throwing a more finese game. Josh Beckett went through a similar thing. He was too proud of his fastball and got lit when he couldn't throw it by anyone anymore.
Tim Lincecum is in a similar boat as Verlander. His fastball isn't what it used to be, and he for some reason or another has lost his control, and he's gotten lit the last few years because of it.
All the talk about him getting older or losing velocity or ebeing distrated by Upton etc. I think are basically BS. The problem is that he has lost the ability to pinpoint the location on his pitches. So he is constantly pitching from behind in the count and then is leaving fastballs up and over the plate and getting rocked. Even average MLB hitters can rock a good fastball when they know it is coming for a strike.
Good pitchers are always working from ahead in the count. JV has been walking guys like crazy this year. He has never really done that before last season. This season has been his worst.
The control issue is his #1 problem. Fix that, and everything else will fall into place. I have no idea why his control has been lost, but I suspect it is a mechanical issue in his delivery somewhere, probably a bad habit picked up while compensating for the injured groins he had last season.
31 isn't old for a starting pitcher and he shouldn't be breaking down like this without any noticable injury.
Verlander may suck at pitching but he wins at collecting pr0n. He even has a couple of quality side pieces.