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OT - what's up with 4 on 4 olympic hockey overtime?

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March 1st, 2010 at 11:47 PM
#1
gbdub
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Joined: 02/16/2010
MGoPoints: 12685
OT - what's up with 4 on 4 olympic hockey overtime?

So this has been bugging me. Why is the Olympic gold medal decided by a 4 on 4 overtime? To me, this completely alters the dynamic of the game: the lines are different, the strategy is different, even the officiating is different (refs seem more reticent to call a penalty that leaves only 3 men on the ice). It would be like playing 7 on 7 for football OT (actually, this might be an improvement over the NFL game-winning coin flip, but I digress). Don't even get me started on shootouts.

I understand why they do 4 on 4 in the NHL regular season. I remember the meaningless overtimes back when everyone just tried to not lose their precious 1 point. But for a championship? Let 'em play the game. Some of my best hockey memories are staying up 'til 2 AM watching the 3+ overtime games in the Wings / Hurricanes Cup finals. And who wouldn't have wanted to see more USA vs. Canada? It beats giant inflatable beavers.

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March 1st, 2010 at 11:53 PM
#2
Red_Lee
Joined: 01/24/2010
MGoPoints: 6566
Well..

It's obviously because Sidney Crosby plays better 4 on 4 hockey because Sid the Legend is Sid the Great and Sidney Crosby pulled a Sidney Crosby and now every hockey game you watch Sidney Crosby will be the topic of Sidney Crosby.

*disclaimer - I don't blame Crosby for his extreme media circle jerk...but he's still a douche

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March 1st, 2010 at 11:58 PM
(Reply to #2) #3
david from wyoming
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I'm pretty sure if he was

I'm pretty sure if he was American and played on the wings (or whatever your country/team of choice is) you would have a different opinion of Crosby. He is a top five player in the NHL and maybe the best leader currently playing not named Jarome Iginla.

I'm sure the neg's will come for this, but Crosby hasn't whined much after his rookie and sophomore years (which were admittedly bad).

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March 2nd, 2010 at 12:04 AM
(Reply to #4) #4
JediLow
Joined: 11/11/2008
MGoPoints: 972
Well, Crosby doesn't complain

Well, Crosby doesn't complain if he wins... and if you don't score hat tricks against him. You know there's a problem when the Olympic announcers even talk about how they're sick of Crosby's whining.

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March 2nd, 2010 at 12:17 AM
(Reply to #4) #5
Red_Lee
Joined: 01/24/2010
MGoPoints: 6566
Evidence

*insert video of Crosby bitching about Ovechkin's hat trick and another video of Crosby's horrible attitude after losing the Stanley Cup*

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March 2nd, 2010 at 12:26 AM
(Reply to #9) #6
Stork
Joined: 02/28/2010
MGoPoints: 48
Crosby showing complete lack

Crosby showing complete lack of the proper fighting etiquette. Those two clips aren't fights, they're cheap shots.

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March 2nd, 2010 at 12:55 AM
(Reply to #9) #7
BlueintheLou
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Joined: 09/13/2008
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Wow. I've never seen those,

Wow. I've never seen those, but good lord. That is some Bush League junk. The first fight is bad because of the cheap shots, but I think the second is worse, because in that situation it better be agreed upon to drop the gloves. That, clearly, was not. Did he get penalized by the league for these?

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March 2nd, 2010 at 12:57 AM
(Reply to #9) #8
HarryPotterDies
Joined: 02/23/2010
MGoPoints: 1
Yeah, that's weak. Crosby

Yeah, that's weak. Crosby punched the dude in the balls at 1:21 of the first video.

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March 2nd, 2010 at 2:50 AM
(Reply to #9) #9
mjkaiser09
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Joined: 07/30/2009
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Reminds me of this

Way to go Jackie Moon.

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March 2nd, 2010 at 10:55 AM
(Reply to #9) #10
jaggs
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Joined: 02/03/2009
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more doucheyness
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March 2nd, 2010 at 8:55 PM
(Reply to #9) #11
08mms
Joined: 07/02/2009
MGoPoints: 2047
Did he just dong punch a

Did he just dong punch a dude... from behind...?

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March 1st, 2010 at 11:53 PM
#12
david from wyoming
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What is the point of 4 on 4

What is the point of 4 on 4 OT in the NHL regular season? Whatever your answer is for that, it would most likely be the reason for 4 on 4 in the olympics.

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March 2nd, 2010 at 12:02 AM
(Reply to #3) #13
gbdub
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Joined: 02/16/2010
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The regular season is

The regular season is different, because there is really no downside to losing in overtime. You earn the tie and go all-out for the OT win. Regular season OT and shootouts are kind of a gimmick to drum up excitement for something that isn't all that meaningful. But I dunno, championship hockey is already plenty exciting, and 5 on 5, play 'til someone wins OTs are usually tightly played, edge-of-your seat affairs. 4 on 4 loses some of that, I think. YMMV.

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March 2nd, 2010 at 12:13 AM
(Reply to #5) #14
david from wyoming
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Regular season OT and

Regular season OT and shootouts are kind of a gimmick to drum up excitement

Bingo. No matter what happens, all of Canada will watch. But if the game went on for 4 OT periods, how many Americans will turn off the game?

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March 2nd, 2010 at 12:29 AM
(Reply to #8) #15
weasel3216
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I agree 100%

I think many Americans, not all by any means, will only watch hockey if the media tells them that it is an important game. I would love to see some of the ratings for game 7 of the Stanley Cup finals vs the Gold Medal game. I would love it if the US shared the same passion that Canada has towards hockey.

Many people are talking about what the Olympics will do for the NHL and i really think that it will do nothing. I think people will soon forget about hockey in the US and go back to College basketball and baseball when it comes. Again, i would love for the US to share the passion for hockey that Canada does but i think hockey will always remain the fourth major sport.

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March 2nd, 2010 at 1:30 AM
(Reply to #11) #16
clarkiefromcanada
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Joined: 11/21/2008
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The fifth American sport (behind NASCAR even)

Somewhere behind NASCAR and keeping up with the WNBA an bull riding is hockey. Americans don't really grow up on hockey (except in a few states and even then it's still well behind football/basketball on the radar) whereas every Canadian grows up on the game. Hockey Night in Canada, Don Cherry, Gretzky etc. The national fabric here is very much defined by huge hockey moments...72 Summit Series against the Soviets (Henderson's goal); 87 Series against the Soviets (Gretzky Murphy Lemiuex goal - greatest ever imho) and now the Crosby goal. Some would say the 2002 Olympic win was big but, really, that game was never in any doubt so it doesn't resonate with people. Everyone and I mean everyone can tell you where they were when Paul Henderson scored against the Soviets in 72...they shut down every business and all the schools. It has an importance here it can never have in America.

Without the cultural determinism for watching the game it will always be somewhere behind the "traditional" American sports.

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March 2nd, 2010 at 9:08 AM
(Reply to #26) #17
weasel3216
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Joined: 08/09/2009
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Agree and Disagree

Good point about the rise of NASCAR, but i would still say that NHL is far higher in popularity than the WNBA.

I looked up average attendances and the WNBA, from 1997 to 2009, averaged 8378 people per game. The team with the highest attendance was Washington (12,571), the lowest attendance was Chicago (3,732). To compare this to hockey, sorry could only find last two seasons for hockey, the team with the largest average attendance was Chicago (21,655.5) and the team with the lowest attendance was Phoenix (12,940). So what i am saying is that the team with the lowest average attendance in the NHL is still higher than the highest attended team in the WNBA. Just to show the difference in the league overall, the average attendance for a WNBA team, from 1997-2009, is 8,378; the NHL average attendance in 2008-2010 is 17,177.5.

I just do not see a true comparison between the two leagues, i will not even tackle bull riding as i think that is far too different to compare to the WNBA and NHL.

Then i would also ask, then we don't Americans embrace soccer since a good portion of people play soccer as children? I am not really asking a question, more of just a point to your hockey in Canada reference.

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March 2nd, 2010 at 11:34 PM
(Reply to #28) #18
clarkiefromcanada
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Joined: 11/21/2008
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I hope the NHL is more popular than the WNBA

However, WNBA has a broadcast deal on ESPN/ESPN 2 and any perusal of the numbers tells you they get a greater viewership (God Help Me) than NHL on Versus. That, friends is Gary Bettman's leadership in a nutshell.

As for soccer, while many Americans play soccer few really much live it the way they do in say England or even Canada. I am of English decent and grew up a Manchester City supporter. This was not a choice for me but a birthright passed on to me by my parents (and not one I could choose away from). There is no cultural connection with soccer/football in the US (maybe in 50 years if the MLS prospers) like in England. I can tell you that this link was maintained in my youth and I have done the same with my little girls who can sing "God Save the Queen" (for England) and blue moon for Manchester City quite agreeably. We watch the Premiership every Saturday.

In Canada it's the same thing for every little kid. In fact, I need to sign up my girls for hockey next week and soccer the following (they are 3 and 2 and very good skaters). This is who we are.

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March 2nd, 2010 at 10:40 AM
(Reply to #11) #19
mbrummer
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Joined: 07/29/2008
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NBC/ NHL

NBC/NHL need to seize this momentum and start pushing hockey Saturday and Sunday afternoons. Get every Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Blackhawks game on there.

I know its evil, but it will help the game. Then they should go XFL style. Reward the winners of these National TV games, 5 grand a player, or better yet 50,000 to the winning team's choice of charity. It will help keep players at the intense level, even during the sometimes mundane regular season.

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March 2nd, 2010 at 12:43 AM
(Reply to #8) #20
gbdub
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Joined: 02/16/2010
MGoPoints: 12685
Implicit in my labeling it a

Implicit in my labeling it a "gimmick" is my opinion that it doesn't add to the fanbase at all. I mean, how many non-hockey fans said to themselves, "man I hated hockey when those OTs went on forever, but now that it's one guy skating at that guy with all the pads, I'm totally in"? How many people turn off a bowl game after 2 OTs because they are bored?

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March 2nd, 2010 at 1:00 AM
(Reply to #15) #21
weasel3216
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Joined: 08/09/2009
MGoPoints: 3462
Major difference

I think that there is a major difference in your comparisons. You are comparing maybe the number one sport in the US, college football, to the number four sport in the US. People are willing to watch football all night because ESPN will cover that 2 or 3 OT game for the next two days whereas a hockey game that last 3 OT will be lucky to receive 5 minutes on ESPN the next day. It is really a question of what sports we value more in the country. It shows that football, in general, is far more popular than hockey and therefore people are willing to stay up as late as the game is on.

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March 2nd, 2010 at 1:09 AM
(Reply to #21) #22
gbdub
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Joined: 02/16/2010
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Difference of degree, but not of substance

You're right about the popularity, but my point was how many people *who are already watching the game* are going to stop watching because of a longer overtime? How many people who wouldn't watch the game with a long OT would watch with a short OT? In a big time championship game the fans are emotionally invested, and changing the rules to make it end faster is a big emotional letdown.

I recognize that there are practical challenges to long OTs. As a hockey fan, I just hate that those matter and I am exercising my god-given American right to be grumpy about it.

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March 2nd, 2010 at 1:19 AM
(Reply to #23) #23
weasel3216
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See your point

And i guess i did not take into account the hockey lover. I guess i would watch any playoff game regardless of the number of OTs even if Detroit, i am assuming you are a Wings fan from previous posts, was not involved. For example, if San Jose and Colorado were playing in Western Conference Semi-Finals game 7 that was in triple OT i am sure i would still be watching just as a lover of the game.

This is also assuming that Detroit was awaiting the winner of this game after sweeping Chicago.

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March 2nd, 2010 at 9:34 AM
(Reply to #15) #24
Blue in Yarmouth
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Joined: 02/18/2009
MGoPoints: 5720
can't answer your question

but wanted to agree with you on the idea that 4 on 4 for an olympic gold medal with a shootout to ensue if there is no goal in the overtime is a joke.

In the medal rounds it should be 5 on 5 20 minute overtimes until a goal is scored. I still remember watching a game when I was like 8 years old between NYI and the Wash. Capitals that seemed to go on forever. It was the longest game in the history of the NHL for a long time (may still be but I am not certain).

I would much rather see something like that than a medal match get settled in a 4 on 4 OT or shootout. Shootouts are exciting and all, but settling a game of any magnitude by one is an injustice IME.

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March 2nd, 2010 at 12:11 AM
#25
weasel3216
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Open Ice

The belief is that in 4 on 4 there is a lot more ice for the offense to move thus a goal is highly probable of occurring, thus no shootout.

As for the Olympics, the games were played at General Motors Place or the home to the Vancouver Canucks. The ice is smaller than what they play on in Europe or Internationally, International play is 210 feet long with boards 13 feet from the goal line and in the NHL the ice is 200 feet and the goal line is 11 feet from the boards, so i am assuming that rather than throwing 5 on 5 for OT they decided to only use the NHL's 4 on 4 policy.

IMO, i would rather see the hockey at the Olympics played on the International length, but since the world economy sucks ass right now i understand the rational behind it. I also heard that since most of the players in the Olympics play in the NHL it provides a much higher level of play, with the NHL ice, than with the International ice.

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March 2nd, 2010 at 12:38 AM
(Reply to #7) #26
gbdub
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Who needs open ice?

Keep in mind that in NHL playoff hockey (as opposed to the regular season), there is no shootout - it's 20 minute sudden death periods until someone wins. This is how I'd prefer to see the medal rounds played.

And why do we assume that open ice and fast scoring is better? I rather prefer the grinding, physical, North American style, with all its diving shot blocks and net-crashing. Part of what made the US-Canada games so great was how tightly they were played. 12 goal games just don't have the drama.

But to me all that's kind of irrelevant - if 4 on 4 is so great, why don't they play the whole game that way? But if you don't play the rest of the game that way, why decide the championship that way?

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March 2nd, 2010 at 12:53 AM
(Reply to #14) #27
weasel3216
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Joined: 08/09/2009
MGoPoints: 3462
I agree

I agree with you, i love the 5 on 5 style and would prefer it all the way. I was just providing my understanding of the 4 on 4. I would love to see a grinding/physical style of play all throughout the game.

The one thing i do see as a benefit to the 4 on 4 is the time OT can go. It is uncommon to see a 4 on 4 go more than one OT since there is so much room for the offense to operate. This means that kids and adults on the East coast are able to watch those playoff games that are on the West coast that go into OT. I really hate staying up will 1am to watch a 3 OT game with Detroit at Anaheim in the Playoffs when i have to be up at 5 am for work. This brings up a whole slew of problems about the conferences in the NHL (Detroit, as well as Columbus, in the West being my main problem).

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March 2nd, 2010 at 1:02 AM
(Reply to #18) #28
gbdub
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Joined: 02/16/2010
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You're completely right of

You're completely right of course. I just wish you weren't.
The obvious solution is to eliminate the Anaheim Ducks (and by extension, Ryan Getzlaf).

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March 2nd, 2010 at 1:11 AM
(Reply to #22) #29
weasel3216
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Again agree

And +1 for your plan to get rid of Getzlaf, damn i hate him.

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March 2nd, 2010 at 12:49 AM
#30
HarryPotterDies
Joined: 02/23/2010
MGoPoints: 1
4 on 4 sucks Gary Bettman ass

I know Gary Bettman has little, if anything, to do with Olypmic hockey rules, but I hate him almost as much as I hated 4 on 4 in the Olympics. I think the rule is to limit the odds of letting a shootout decide the game, but the idea behind it is full of hypocrisy. Let's use the shootout as a last resort because it's not indicative of the game of hockey, but play 4 on 4 because it is?

It's impossible to know the outcome of a 5 on 5 OT, but the 4 on 4 absolutely killed us. Not to take anything away from Ron Wilson, I think he would have played this scheme regardless, but the Slovaks exposed Canada late in there game and we followed suit with two forecheckers and sometimes even the third forward below the dots during regulation. When it came to OT where we couldn't play two men deep, we lost our game and resorted to throwing weak wrist shots on Luongo from the top of the circles with nobody crashing the net. I can't see how our coaching staff thought this was going to win us the game. You can argue it was bad coaching, and it probably was, but I understand why we didn't have anything given the little practice we had as a team, even 5 on 5. Olympic style OT is going to benefit some teams and not others, just like shootouts. I don't see any harm playing 5 on 5 OT, why change the rules?

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March 2nd, 2010 at 12:31 AM
#31
JeffB
Joined: 09/22/2009
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I don't know the actual

I don't know the actual reason, but I would think that part of it is that it might be more likely that a team would score when it's 4v4 than 5v5, and that the game wouldn't end up in a shootout (since that's what would have happened if the OT was scoreless). Watching World Cup and other international soccer over the years, I know how much of a let-down that can be after a hard fought game.

With the gold medal game in hockey being the last thing that occurs before the closing ceremony, they couldn't have a situation like NHL playoff hockey, where the ending of the game is really in question - they need to have a "drop dead" time when it will finish, so all the VIPs can get to the closing.

Based on that, I figure that the 4v4 is a compromise.

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March 2nd, 2010 at 12:44 AM
(Reply to #13) #32
HarryPotterDies
Joined: 02/23/2010
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I think you are spot on, but

I think you are spot on, but why do people want to change the rules to induce the end of the game? You don't see baseball drop to 8 players in extra innings because one less fielder is going to make it easier to score - it drastically changes the game.

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March 2nd, 2010 at 10:55 AM
(Reply to #16) #33
Blue in Seattle
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Actually I think that is the point

If two teams are so close that they tie in regulation, or in the part of the game played by the "regular" rules, then it is logical to start altering the rules to try and decide a winner.

even 5 on 5 is altered by "who ever scores first wins". And the main thing in the rules decision is to end with a clear outcome from fair circumstances.

Yes 4 on 4 opens things up, but isn't that what should happen when two teams are so close that a decision on the winner can't be determined from 5 on 5?

I hated seeing the puck slide in under the goalies stick just as much as the next US citizen, but you can't claim it was an unfair competition, both sides had 4 and both sides had to alter their tactics.

Nor was it a "surprise rule", so both teams had an opportunity to prepare for this aspect of the game.

An awesome game that went the Canadians way. Of course they are going to celebrate and talk about it, so man up and accept the results.

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March 2nd, 2010 at 12:49 AM
(Reply to #13) #34
gbdub
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Soccer shootouts: also awful

You're probably right, but schedules are easy to change - I think we could have been spared the full two hours of the the 50 km classic mass start. Don't get me wrong, x-country skiing is a great sport, but why was *that* the only event that NBC shows live in it's entirety? Anyway, why not play the game the night before? There would have been an all-night Vancouver party (on a Saturday, no less).

Shootouts in World Cup soccer are just as egregious. Of course, in soccer the overtimes would likely go on for a week or more, and at some point the rioters get too worn out to pretend to watch.

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March 2nd, 2010 at 10:03 AM
#35
GOBLUE4EVR
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i was...

surprised to hear them say that it was going to 4 on 4 for 20 mins if the game went to OT... i agree that it should be 5 on 5 medal round and the gold and bronze medal games... but the IIHF has always been wierd about their rules... they didn't even adopt the icing rule until this year, and they are still using the old style of crease and whats with the visor rule??? there are a couple of rules that i do like: automatic icing, blows to the head and players in the crease... but as it was said above, the 4 on 4 OT is probably done to increase the chances of the game ending in OT and not in a shootout... as a canadian fan it sucked big time to watch the '94 team lose the gold and the '98 team miss the chance of making it to the gold medal game because of shootouts... shootouts are all fine and dandy for regular season hockey but not playoff hockey and that should be a rule across the world not only in the NHL...

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March 2nd, 2010 at 10:25 AM
(Reply to #30) #36
Blue in Yarmouth
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You know I wondered the same thing

I thought there must have been a visor rule as well because guys like Joe Thornton were wearing one (and I knew for sure that he didn't wear one in the NHL).

I questioned whether there was a rule about everyone wearing one and just as I was asking my brother about it I noticed Chris Pronger wasn't.

He was the only guy in the entire tournament that I noticed not wearing a visor. It must not have been a rule, but why were so many guys who don't ordinarily wear visors wearing them for this tournament?

After asking that question I am wondering if it is something in their contracts with their respective NHL teams that makes it necessary.

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March 2nd, 2010 at 10:34 AM
(Reply to #31) #37
GOBLUE4EVR
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anyone...

born after a certain date in 1975 has to wear a visor... pronger was born before that date and choose not to wear one... but IIHF must not have the rule about wearing the visors correctly like the CHL does... because if you look at the placement of getzlafs and thorntons you could tell they were not fans of wearing them...

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March 2nd, 2010 at 10:42 AM
(Reply to #33) #38
Blue in Yarmouth
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That is

That is bar none the stupidest rule I have ever heard. I would be interested in hearing the logic behind that as one can only assume it has to deal with ones ability to make the proper educated decision (that is generally the reason we take decisions out of people's hands, we don't think they have the capacity to understand the possible outcomes).

How can someone think that 34 year old hockey players are smart enough but anyone 34 years old and under don't have the capacity to understand the decision they are making?

Just an aside, Getzlaf usually wears a visor, and always has it up like that. Don't ask me why he bothers, but when he plays for the ducks he wears one two, and in the eact same way as well.

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March 2nd, 2010 at 10:52 AM
(Reply to #35) #39
GOBLUE4EVR
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completely agree...

that it is a dumb rule... let the players make the choice to wear one or not... i remember when bryan berard had his injury and the influx of people wearing visors or full masks went up by about 50% at the bar/sports complex i worked at... i also watched a lot of those same guys take the visors/masks off of their helmets after one game because they couldn't stand them... as for getzlaf, thats probably why i never realized he wears one because of how its on his helmet...

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March 2nd, 2010 at 12:31 PM
(Reply to #35) #40
Tshimanga Cowabunga
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Getzlaf

does not normally wear a visor. Unless he just added it this year. Perry and Ryan do tho I believe

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March 3rd, 2010 at 8:57 AM
(Reply to #40) #41
Blue in Yarmouth
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If you follow them, I will go with your word

I don't follow the Ducks religiously so perhaps the games I saw him with a visor on were after injuries or something. I know, at least at times, he has worn a visor in the NHL but if you say he doesn't as a rule, I will take your word for it.

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March 2nd, 2010 at 10:32 AM
#42
ontarioblue
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Gold Medal Game

I actually thought that 4 on 4 the U.S. team would benefit during the overtime period more than Team Canada. With the way Miller was playing, the only way he was beaten was by having several bodies in front of him screening him so he couldn't see the puck. With only two skaters in the offensive zone, there was less chance this would happen. Miller was outstanding throughout the tournament and especially during the Gold Medal game. Rick Nash and Miller were the two best players on the ice in this game.

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March 2nd, 2010 at 11:08 AM
#43
Corey
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4 on 4 Not a Gimmick

4 on 4 is a way to try and expedite the end of the game without having to resort to a shoot-out.

Among other things:

-Skilled players have more room to maneuver. Faster, shiftier players won't get bottled up as much with that extra defender missing. NHL players are extremely good at taking up space on the ice, so this change is significant. This was a huge factor in the amount of surprise Crosby exacted on Miller in the gold medal game.

In fact, one reason that teams stay 5 on 5 for matching penalties is because of one Wayne Gretzky, who was so adept at using the 4 on 4 space that it was effectively a power play for his team in the instances of matching penalties.

Offense is forced to balance with defense. Probably the major reason for going 4 on 4 is it all but eliminates the use of a neutral zone trap in overtime. With all the passing lanes that get opened up, it is virtually impossible to clog up the neutral zone and rely on hopes that your offense will eventually throw something in.

-Players get tired out more quickly. When you have to move faster and farther to achieve the same objective, the weaker players are going to get tired more quickly. Obviously when players get tired, they make mistakes and goals go in. Granted sometimes they pull a Chris Perry @ MSU in 2003, in which case so much the better?

The notion that the 4 on 4 play is somehow a complete departure from the norm is silly. Hockey teams regularly practice 4 on 4 play in scrimmage play because it helps work on player/puck flow, and because it doesn't tire people out as quickly in practice. Unless you count the 4th and sometimes 5th lines, teams don't have practice squads, so 5 on 5 is sometimes impractical.

Finally, about the referees... it is a well known fact that you basically have to pull a gun on somebody to get a penalty in an important OT game. This is how it has been for a very long time, and isn't new to the 4 on 4 situation. During the regular season in the NHL you might see some consistency with regulation, but you'll notice that in the playoffs that will go out the window for the most part. Nobody wants to get saddled with the burden of making a chintsy call, so they let virtually everything go.

...and yes, shoot-outs suck as a means of deciding an important game.

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March 2nd, 2010 at 12:32 PM
#44
Tauro
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Joined: 06/30/2008
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Last Day of Competition and Closing Ceremonies

We also have to keep in mind that the gold medal hockey game is often on the last day of competition. They want to have it all decided before the closing ceremonies. They couldn't afford to have multiple overtime periods, no matter how awesome that would be.

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