Cincy's coach got a lot of praise for his commemts following the UC-Xavier basketball brawl. Now the punishments have been announced. They fall far short of what I expected after listening to him, especially the six games for Yancy Gates. At least he's still talking tough. Those players will have to apologize, in front of a camera, and they'll have to mean it. Pretty much what I would have expected from Bob Huggins.
OT: What do people think of Mick Cronin now?
“The four guys that we felt didn’t handle themselves properly will not return from their suspensions until they fully grasp what I’m talking about." We will see what happens and if that quote truly stays true.
No we won't see. Rather, we might see. Just because a player comes right back after a suspension doesn't mean he has not lived up to the coach's requirements for doing so.
This is what angers me about media and fans. You/we make assumptions based on very little information. We are not privy to team rules, practices, team meetings, etc etc. Three and Out should have taught us that.
We should not be judging Cronin on how he handles this because we know 1% of the information he knows about these kids and even with that he may not be the one to make the decision.
I'm a high school coach and the decision was made to kick a player off my team today. It was a joint decision with me and my AD. And we're probably the only two people in the school (other than the player) who understands exactly why it was the necessary step to take. You don't go kicking people off teams without seriously considering all the ramifications and the entire body of work the student-athlete has exhibited.
I think he's got a cool name. That's about it.
I'm not sure it's totally Mick Cronin's decision, for one thing. Also, he's in a tough position of simultaneously being held accountable for the fight and held accountable for winning enough games to keep his job.
That said, I'm very surprised at the equivalence of Gates's suspension and the other two 6-gamers. I would have thought it would be like 10, 5, 5, and 1 or something.
And Huggins would never have done any of what Cronin did.
Yea, pretty weak. Cincinnati has twenty-four games left, so the six game suspension is a quarter season. LeGarrette Blount got eight games for a sucker punch (so that's more along the lines of 12ish games in basketball) which seems more appropriate.
These guys (and MSU's football team) are lucky I'm not their coach or AD.
I am not trying to be corrective but rather agree with you on the severity of punishment to an extent. LeGarrette Blount was actually suspended initially for the remainder of the season but he came back after 10 games. Oregon had 11 games left (not counting bowl games). That means he missed 91% of the remaining games! That is WAY more than just the 25% Gates is going to miss. So I agree pretty weak! If anything Gates should be suspended for the remainder of the season unless he proves he can come back, like Blount did.
Kelly reinstated Blount for Stanford and ASU (after eight games, but the Pac wouldn't let him play against Stanford because Oregon hadn't applied for reinstatement from the conference), he just didn't play against ASU and Arizona because LaMichael James was going all...LaMichael James.
I'd really appreciate it if you didn't associate the University of Michigan with Calvin peeing on anything, and I'm sure Bill Watterson feels similarly.
Words speak louder than actions...an article regarding Holloway's 'taunting' actions during the game, and the media jumping on him for his choice of word "gangster" after the game. How words can hurt you more than actions (since he never threw a punch during the brawl)...
The elephant in the room is the race thing. There was a decent enough article at ESPN about young black men fighting on national TV (<<=== LINK hard to see) by Myron Medcalf, a self-described "28-year old African-American." Come down too hard on the players, and you risk catering to white racist "they're all hoodlums and thugs and monkeys" stereotypes, and alienating the black community. Don't come down hard enough, and the inmates are running the asylum.
This whole thing of taunting and dissing and trash talking and "being respected" and "losing face" is a huge sub-text, particularly as part of the young, black, male, subculture. One of the above posts talked about how Xavier players, especially Holloway, really instigated the whole mess with going out of their way to diss the Cincy team. (I'd really like to hear accurate direct quotes of what Holloway said . . . my guess is it was not PC or acceptable or appropriate in any way. Why can't someone play a tape publicly, and ask him to defend his speech?)
I don't pretend to understand it or be able to speak to it, particularly as a privileged, 52 year old white man. However, there is one group that can speak, and one representative of this group who I think SHOULD speak. That group is young, black, male, basketball players, both in the college ranks, the NBA ranks, and beyond. They are uniquely equipped to say what they think. Unfortunately, my guess is that most coaches won't allow any of their players to speak publicly.
The representative of this group who I think SHOULD speak? Jalen Rose. As a young, black, former basketball player, one who is well-spoken, a current ESPN employee, who came from the 'hood in Detroit, who is a devotee of trash talking, who is known for having plenty of attitude, who has had some time to mature, who has no current team he has to cater to, who addressed this at least peripherally in his ESPN piece on the Fab Five, Jalen practically owes it to the public to speak to this issue.
However, I'm pretty cynical about this. My immediate thought is that Rose doesn't have the balls to speak honestly, bluntly and publicly to this issue. (I'm sure he has opinions, but my guess is he keeps them to himself, probably partially to keep is position with ESPN.) My cynical, white, 52 year old suspicion is that Rose and others would privately condone what the brothers did, but won't ever publicly stand behind this.
If this is the case, that Rose and the black community largely would stand behind what happened, albeit privately, we have a total lose-lose situation. With harsh and appropriate punishment, the white man is keeping the brothers down. (slavery overtones?) And with continued dissing and violence, the young black men kill each other off or put themselves in prison. Personally, I don't see an easy way out. I find the whole thing reprehensible. Speak my mind, and I'm accused of being a close minded harsh racist. And for the blacks who find it completely justifiable, they also are crucified if they speak their mind. Feeling that the fighting is abominable and unacceptable is irreconcilable with the view that the fighting is justifiable and appropriate. There isn't any room for compromise. Until this issue is brought out and debated and discussed honestly, we'll get nowhere.
I find this whole post reprehensible. Where did criticizing Jalen Rose come from? And please don't use "brothers" in this context.
I want to hear from Jalen. If there is any criticism, it is only my cynical doubt that he would speak to the issue. That's a shame, because he can speak in a relevant way that I can't.
If you don't understand it, and can't pretend to speak on it, then don't speak on it. The brain that sent these signals to your fingers to type this on your machine is a modern fucking embarrassment. Get off the fucking court.
Let me be brief and try again.
Are you a young black male? If so, please speak to what happened. I want to understand it, from that perspective. I personally find what happened reprehensible and believe that several players should be banned for the season. However, I want to hear from the perspective of those in that situation. For me, or others, to render judgement, isn't appropriate. I want to know if there are mitigating circumstances that lead to six and one game suspensions being appropriate.
If you have personal friends who are young black males, ask them to speak to this.
Further, I want to hear from Jalen Rose. What would he have done? Would his actions today be different from his actions 20 some years ago? What punishment does he think is appropriate? He has both the experience to understand this personally, and the forum through which to comment on his take. That's why I want to hear from him.
Your response is insulting and inappropriate. If you don't understand something, well, you try to understand it. That's what I want to do. I may have some ideas and beliefs . . . in order to figure out whether they're right or wrong, it's helpful to get the perspective of others.
Well, Jalen has a podcast on Friday on Grantland, so perhaps check that out this week. I think our problems with your post is that it exposes personal prejudices that doesn't take a FBI profiler to see.
My personal prejudices are as follows:
- Trash talking is bad and shouldn't be tolerated
- Instigating violence is wrong
- fighting is wrong
- punching someone who isn't facing you is especially wrong
- responding to insults received with violence is immature and wrong
As such, I believe that anyone who threw a punch in the melee now has zero tolerance for the balance of the season. One more punch, and they're out for the season.
I believe that Coach Cronin would be justified in kicking Gates & Mbodj off the team. If they have no real contrition, why should they be allowed to play?
Holloway is almost as bad. I think a 10 game suspension would be appropriate, and no awards. Let your play speak for you. If you are so insecure that the insults of others get under your skin that easily, something needs to change.
As a student at UC, I have watched Yancy Gates simply go through the motions during his time as a bearcat. He showed more intensity during the Xavier scuffle than he has his entire career on the court. He is uber lethargic and so frustrating to watch, which is sad considering his potential.
All he said were words. Accountability was not taken to the full extent despite his strong words and presumed high character. I don't think he'll keep his job for very longer. Tu's jawing, although it was provoked by a UC player(Sean Kilpatrick) saying that "Tu wouldn't start for us", was not necessary even though talking shit happens a lot in sports. Telling one of the top 3 players in the country that he wouldn'y start for an unranked team not making much progress is stupid. So was UC's reaction to Mark Lyons and Holloway's jawing throughout the game. Take the loss professionally...I'm not sure the university wants its "University of Convicts" reputation any more. Giving Yancy AND the guy who stomped on our bug guy only get just two more games than X's Dez Wells is BS. The difference between fighting back after getting hands to the face and sucker punching and chucking a basketball on a player's head/stomping on a player's head is only 2 games? Those actions could have been criminal offenses for crying out loud...
How about win with class? Tu sure wanted to talk a lot for a guy who scored 5 points in their loss to UC last year. Does that mean he's not a great player - of course not. He had an off day that game and it was clearly different this year. He didn't need to remind anyone on that court that he was the best player out there - his game does that for him.
Regarding Wells' suspension - if he's only going to get 4 games, I can support 6 for the UC players. No one in this whole thing was innocent, but this never erupts to violence if Wells doesn't shove Guyn to the ground. Up until then, he and Holloway were content to get in each other's faces and act tough. Wells was not retaliating to any physical contact to his own person.
The bottom line is this was all just stupid and reflects poorly on all involved. If someone's trash talk can incite you to violence you need to grow up.
there is no class when either team wins. There is a fight in just about every game, not quite as heavy as the all-out brawl. Don't you have to take a loss with class in the same respect? When you win you get bragging rights, right? I'm sure there's some form of trash talking in most college bball games. It's how UC reacted that caused this brawl. X had a lot of responsibility in this fiasco to, don't get me wrong, but Tu had something to prove when Kilpatrick made a negative remark and he made quite a statement.
This definitely reflects negatively on both schools, especially UC in a "big brother" conference. There's a new big brother in town though (4 of last 5, 8 of last 12!)
You certainly have to lose with class. I was referencing your comment about losing professionally - the flip side is winning with class. I'm not sure why kilpatrick disrespecting Tu gives him carte blanche to taunt. Like I said - Wells starts the actual violence. Trash talk is one thing - by your logic Tu was trash talking the whole UC team so they "had something to prove" which obviously is no excuse for acting like a fool. No one truly believed what kilpatrick said, it was so dumb. But yet holloway has to prove he's "tough" by taunting. You gain respect by winning and going about your business. How much taunting was there after the osu/um game this year?
where the teams pushed each other/held each other back. But I think Tu has proved yet again that he is a top 3 guard in the country. Winning breeds bragging rights, and bragging is no means for fighting. UC player prompted Dez to take action when putting hands to face as a sign of disrespect. Both schools at fault here....it's time to move on now. X has bigger fish to fry (staying in the top 10/getting higher)
Yancy Gates should have been kicked off of the team, and the other suspensions should have been more harsh. On the other side of the fence, the one-game suspension for Holloway after he admitted starting it is way too short. I think six games would have been a great starting point, especially for Holloway.
I was hoping that the prosecutor's office would look into this, and they are. I really don't see how they can possibly not charge Gates with assault. Here's the CBS link:
To be fair the Xavier coach didn't really punish his guys either.
Are you serious OP? Huggins probably would have tried to get away with minor suspensions. Also, 6 games is a good chunk of a college season and it sounds like it's conditional. The players have to meet expectations to be reinstated.