OT: Victor Martinez to the Tigers
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:12 PM ^
Have fun signing Crawford now.
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:18 PM ^
honestly doesnt seem possible at this point with the likes of the Angels and Red Sox wanting him and having the money to outbid the Tigers. So from what I hear they are putting their sights on Jayson Werth
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:18 PM ^
Crawford isn't totally out of reach, but Werth or Dunn would be just as awesome.
November 23rd, 2010 at 2:32 PM ^
Crawford was never going to happen and I'm not sure that outfield was a high priority upgrade anyway.
November 24th, 2010 at 12:43 PM ^
believe that this will aid in us getting crawford! i am not a mathlete and i do not know how the big money coming off of the books and our arbitrations, resignings, free agents, etc., what that all adds up to. however, i do know that illitch loves Tiger Town and believes from his insiders that this free agent signing year will be different from several years ago with bonderman, willis and co. injuries always play a role. crawford would allow ajax to hit lower in the lineup with less pressure he will see that there is now protection for cabrera and who would not want to be on base for that cat! the relief core is doing well with benoit, as well as our top three plus the phil coke experiment. all in all i would say that what we have to offer to crawford if the money is right, we will be a very attractive situation! Go Blue beat osu! Go Tigers!
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:19 PM ^
Avila will play once a week now.
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:24 PM ^
Bet you Martinez does a lot of DH time.
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:26 PM ^
catches 1-2 days a week
plays 1st base 1 day a week
DH's 2-3 days a week
November 23rd, 2010 at 1:03 PM ^
Last year V-Mart played 110 games as catcher, 14 as 1st base, and 4 as DH. None of those 4 games he started as the DH.
Cite, http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/martivi01.shtml
Please stop making things up.
November 23rd, 2010 at 1:15 PM ^
Just because the Red Sox used him as a catcher doesn't mean that the Tigers will. There's a reason VMart didn't DH for Boston and his name is David Ortiz. The fact is that VMart is not a good defensive catcher and is probably more suited for DH. If you don't believe me, here's what Tigers beat writer John Lowe has to say on the matter.
November 24th, 2010 at 1:34 PM ^
may not happen. however, if you have paid attention in the past than you would know that what one team does with a player does not necessarily mean another will do the same thing. i can see the tigers really trusting and handing the majority of games behind the dish to avila! i can also see the vast majority of innings at 1B going to Caby! i am not sure with the VMart signing that it leaves much room for Maggs! with the young talent we have in minors, rayburn and boesch, mags days may be numbered or already over! you can reference other teams all you want, what i am saying is that the tigers situation in my opinion is different with our personel! Go Blue beat osu! Go Tigers!
November 25th, 2010 at 1:40 AM ^
Actually it was stated that Martinez is expected to catch 40 games with the majority of the remaining going to Avila. Martinez will be used as a DH and 1B to give Cabrera time to rest and hit DH as well. Martinez signing gives them flexibility with those 3 positions to rest players but still keep their bats in the line up.
Might want to read a little more from Tigers insiders than relying on what Boston did last year.
November 23rd, 2010 at 4:47 PM ^
More importantly Laird will play 0 times a week now.
speaking of which, I was foggy on his stats, so I looked him up on google and one of the things google suggest was "Gerald Laird arrested". Naturally I was curious because I don't remember him getting arrested. It turns out he was arrest for assault last year. What's even more interested in that the person he assaulted said he only landed one of the five punches he threw. Which of course led to the next question, if Laird came at you with a bat would you be scared or just laugh?
November 23rd, 2010 at 5:24 PM ^
So a .200 average is pretty standard all around for him, I guess.
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:18 PM ^
the hope is that Victor rotates between 1st, catcher and DH giving both Miguel and Avila days off and DHing as a switch hitter in the middle of the lineup. I'd love to see them try to get Maggs back for < 9 mill a year
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:19 PM ^
Meh, not a big fan. Would have preferred Dunn by far.
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:21 PM ^
Huh? Dunn is a catcher now? Dunn is still a possibility, but we could sure use a top tier catcher which V-Mart is.
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:23 PM ^
I guess I just assumed that DD wasn't going to sign both Martinez and Dunn. If I'm wrong, then thats great. I just thought he was going after only one hitter, and if that is the case, Martinez is the wrong way to go.
November 23rd, 2010 at 2:01 PM ^
Seems like we're the only ones on the same page. I would've liked Dunn > Martinez also. I've already stated my reasons in this thread.
November 23rd, 2010 at 3:19 PM ^
It's been stated a lot (granted, by writers) that the Tigers were in position for either Martinez or Dunn but not both. If that is indeed correct, then IME Dunn would be far preferable.
November 23rd, 2010 at 2:00 PM ^
Martinez is a top hitter but his defense is a serious liability.
November 24th, 2010 at 1:52 PM ^
of catching or Hitting? because i would definitely say his catching is supspect!
November 23rd, 2010 at 2:00 PM ^
I agree. Dunn would provide more value than Victor would.Victor's value is largely tied in his bat, given his defensive deficiencies. If Victor doesn't catch and just DH's, that's not going to give us more value than a true DH would. If he catches, his defense is so abysmal that will take away a lot of his offensive pop.
November 23rd, 2010 at 3:20 PM ^
The Tigers already have Peralta at SS now, who has zero range. that is two defensive liabilities in the infield.
November 23rd, 2010 at 5:27 PM ^
So if Victor's value is tied to his bat and Dunn provides more value, does that mean that Dunn brings value defensively? Because I've heard all this hype around Dunn the past few years at the trade deadline, but I've never heard any suggestion that Dunn is anything but a dumpster fire in the field.
November 23rd, 2010 at 11:01 PM ^
Dunn is pretty bad in the field also, but I think if we were to nab him he would fill our DH spot. So his bad defense is pretty much nullified and his big bat contributes.
November 24th, 2010 at 2:53 PM ^
to all that VMart is definitely MORE valuable than Dunn! i will go as far as to say that VMart will not cost us many victories from a defensive standpoint and having his swith hitting bat in the lineup will pose problems for anyone wanting to pitch around Caby! therefor imho VMart is of much greater value being that he can fill three seperate positions. Plus the games and innings that VMart will fill will be invaluable to keeping avila and Caby fresh! Go Blue beat osu! Go Tigers!
November 25th, 2010 at 1:43 AM ^
DD was after Dunn but felt he wasnt probably going to get him so he went after V Martinez instead of striking out on all of them.
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:24 PM ^
Now we can see what Avila can develop into.
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:25 PM ^
stop overpaying for guys. You don't give 32 year old catchers 4 year deals at 12.5 per year when they're crappy defensive catchers to begin with.
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:52 PM ^
Yes, because free agents are so worried about the Tigers being able to keep a low payroll that they're going to sign for less than we're willing to pay them, to come play for a .500 team.
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:55 PM ^
the point is that he's a (roughly) 4 win catcher who probably won't be able to stay at catcher, and he's probably a 1 or 2 win DH/1st baseman. That means that 12.5 mil per year will be a gross overpay for at least some of that contract.
November 24th, 2010 at 3:00 PM ^
four wins from a game winning homer or hit? i can see that maybe, but you ARE grossly undervalueing the protection he will give to one of the greatest hitters in the game. Caby will inevitable get more fastballs and or an opposin pitcher wont want to throw their junk as far out of the strike zone and because Caby is most excellently awesome at hitting to the other gap, this combo could be lethal! and as i said in an earlier reply if we have the creative finance we will be with pitching and hitting attractive to crawford! Go Blue beat osu! Go Tigers!
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:54 PM ^
Good defense is cheap - see: Laird, Gerald. You pay the big bucks for .300/20/100 from the catcher position.
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:57 PM ^
bad defense takes away from the value of a player's great offense. If Martinez is worth 5 wins with his bat, but -1 wins with his glove, then he's a 4 win catcher. Which is still great. But if his defense is so bad that he can't stay at catcher and has to move to 1st or DH, then he's only worth 1 or 2 wins. And that's not worth 12.5 per.
November 23rd, 2010 at 1:17 PM ^
Did you just arbitrarily pick those numbers?
November 23rd, 2010 at 1:37 PM ^
His WAR (Wins Above Replacement) last year was 4.0 at catcher. A lot of that comes from the fact that he plays such a demanding defensive position that any offense you can get is a total bonus. By contrast, Adam Dunn was worth approximately 4 wins despite having much better offensive numbers because he was DHing. If Martinez can't play catcher, he's more of a 2 win player than a 4 win player, and isn't worth what the Tigers paid.
November 23rd, 2010 at 2:03 PM ^
played for the washington nationals
if he was DH'ing it was news to him
November 23rd, 2010 at 2:08 PM ^
You're right. But if anything, that strengthens my point. Dunn played in the field and put up a .260/.356/. 536 slash line (good for a .379 wOBA) and was still only good for 4 wins because he wasn't playing a tough defensive position. If Martinez has to DH his value will be significantly, significantly limited. His bat is good, and compared to other catchers it's outstanding, but compared to other designated hitters it is fairly "meh".
November 23rd, 2010 at 2:13 PM ^
maggs was horrible at comerica
the OF is way too big for Dunn to lumber around
he is not going to play 1B with the Tigers we have another guy
Vmart can at least play periodically at a position of need C
November 23rd, 2010 at 2:16 PM ^
to have him DH. He's a much, much better DH option than Martinez is. If you're going to sign Martinez to this deal, you have to intend on making him the full time catcher and keeping him there for 4 years. It simply does not make sense otherwise.
November 23rd, 2010 at 2:25 PM ^
he will not DH...so there you go
Dunn would be a better DH option than Vmart, but thats not the point (I would love a Left handed hitter with some pop FWIW)
VMART is a switch hitter so that should help, he can play a little catcher and do some other things ( he has played 147 games at 1b)
Leyland does not like guys who are only DH's
He will play more catcher this year than in year 4, but he will be a mostly DH guy at the end of this deal
November 23rd, 2010 at 2:28 PM ^
will mostly be a DH guy at the end of this deal. That is why I have a problem with this deal -- his bat just isn't good enough for him to be a 12 million dollar DH.
And I don't believe that Dunn will refuse to play DH. If he does, he's killing his market. Teams aren't stupid anymore, and they know what a terrible fielder he is.
November 23rd, 2010 at 2:03 PM ^
These numbers aren't out of his ass. Go read fangraphs.com. They already have an analysis up on the move.
November 23rd, 2010 at 2:18 PM ^
A question for you - what kind of offensive numbers do you expect from him this and next year? Do you expect him to maintain his current production at his age playing a physically demanding position?
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:55 PM ^
the plan is for him to mostly DH. Probably no more than 40-50 games behind the plate next season. Miggy can still play 3B too, so maybe Martinez at 1B occasionally to give Inge days off.
November 23rd, 2010 at 1:00 PM ^
then they've screwed up royally. A .360 wOBA is outstanding for a catcher, but it's not nearly as good for a DH.
November 23rd, 2010 at 1:00 PM ^
He played 110 games for the Red Sox last year as a catcher. Why would he switch to mostly a DH? This makes no sense when he is a clear upgrade as catcher.
He'll get playing time as DH due to rest and matchups surely, but V-Mart was signed as a catcher, not a DH.
November 23rd, 2010 at 1:11 PM ^
V-Mart will be catching. If you guys played him at DH, what would you do with Carlos Guillen? I don't think you can experiment with him at 2nd again especially given that he will be a year older than last year.
This is a good signing, although not a perfect one. Will certainly help on the offensive side providing some protection for Cabrera. He will be a liability behind the plate, though, and this could come into play against two intra-division teams that like to run in the Twins and Sox. (Yes, I'm a Sox fan, but I'm a huge baseball fan and can be unbiased about things like this, so don't just neg me). But he's an RBI machine and your offense just got much more potent.