That will help us although what to do with Avila...
OT: Victor Martinez to the Tigers
Have fun signing Crawford now.
honestly doesnt seem possible at this point with the likes of the Angels and Red Sox wanting him and having the money to outbid the Tigers. So from what I hear they are putting their sights on Jayson Werth
Crawford isn't totally out of reach, but Werth or Dunn would be just as awesome.
Crawford was never going to happen and I'm not sure that outfield was a high priority upgrade anyway.
believe that this will aid in us getting crawford! i am not a mathlete and i do not know how the big money coming off of the books and our arbitrations, resignings, free agents, etc., what that all adds up to. however, i do know that illitch loves Tiger Town and believes from his insiders that this free agent signing year will be different from several years ago with bonderman, willis and co. injuries always play a role. crawford would allow ajax to hit lower in the lineup with less pressure he will see that there is now protection for cabrera and who would not want to be on base for that cat! the relief core is doing well with benoit, as well as our top three plus the phil coke experiment. all in all i would say that what we have to offer to crawford if the money is right, we will be a very attractive situation! Go Blue beat osu! Go Tigers!
Avila will play once a week now.
Bet you Martinez does a lot of DH time.
catches 1-2 days a week
plays 1st base 1 day a week
DH's 2-3 days a week
Last year V-Mart played 110 games as catcher, 14 as 1st base, and 4 as DH. None of those 4 games he started as the DH.
Please stop making things up.
Just because the Red Sox used him as a catcher doesn't mean that the Tigers will. There's a reason VMart didn't DH for Boston and his name is David Ortiz. The fact is that VMart is not a good defensive catcher and is probably more suited for DH. If you don't believe me, here's what Tigers beat writer John Lowe has to say on the matter.
may not happen. however, if you have paid attention in the past than you would know that what one team does with a player does not necessarily mean another will do the same thing. i can see the tigers really trusting and handing the majority of games behind the dish to avila! i can also see the vast majority of innings at 1B going to Caby! i am not sure with the VMart signing that it leaves much room for Maggs! with the young talent we have in minors, rayburn and boesch, mags days may be numbered or already over! you can reference other teams all you want, what i am saying is that the tigers situation in my opinion is different with our personel! Go Blue beat osu! Go Tigers!
Actually it was stated that Martinez is expected to catch 40 games with the majority of the remaining going to Avila. Martinez will be used as a DH and 1B to give Cabrera time to rest and hit DH as well. Martinez signing gives them flexibility with those 3 positions to rest players but still keep their bats in the line up.
Might want to read a little more from Tigers insiders than relying on what Boston did last year.
More importantly Laird will play 0 times a week now.
speaking of which, I was foggy on his stats, so I looked him up on google and one of the things google suggest was "Gerald Laird arrested". Naturally I was curious because I don't remember him getting arrested. It turns out he was arrest for assault last year. What's even more interested in that the person he assaulted said he only landed one of the five punches he threw. Which of course led to the next question, if Laird came at you with a bat would you be scared or just laugh?
So a .200 average is pretty standard all around for him, I guess.
the hope is that Victor rotates between 1st, catcher and DH giving both Miguel and Avila days off and DHing as a switch hitter in the middle of the lineup. I'd love to see them try to get Maggs back for < 9 mill a year
Meh, not a big fan. Would have preferred Dunn by far.
Huh? Dunn is a catcher now? Dunn is still a possibility, but we could sure use a top tier catcher which V-Mart is.
I guess I just assumed that DD wasn't going to sign both Martinez and Dunn. If I'm wrong, then thats great. I just thought he was going after only one hitter, and if that is the case, Martinez is the wrong way to go.
Seems like we're the only ones on the same page. I would've liked Dunn > Martinez also. I've already stated my reasons in this thread.
It's been stated a lot (granted, by writers) that the Tigers were in position for either Martinez or Dunn but not both. If that is indeed correct, then IME Dunn would be far preferable.
Martinez is a top hitter but his defense is a serious liability.
of catching or Hitting? because i would definitely say his catching is supspect!
I agree. Dunn would provide more value than Victor would.Victor's value is largely tied in his bat, given his defensive deficiencies. If Victor doesn't catch and just DH's, that's not going to give us more value than a true DH would. If he catches, his defense is so abysmal that will take away a lot of his offensive pop.
The Tigers already have Peralta at SS now, who has zero range. that is two defensive liabilities in the infield.
So if Victor's value is tied to his bat and Dunn provides more value, does that mean that Dunn brings value defensively? Because I've heard all this hype around Dunn the past few years at the trade deadline, but I've never heard any suggestion that Dunn is anything but a dumpster fire in the field.
Dunn is pretty bad in the field also, but I think if we were to nab him he would fill our DH spot. So his bad defense is pretty much nullified and his big bat contributes.
to all that VMart is definitely MORE valuable than Dunn! i will go as far as to say that VMart will not cost us many victories from a defensive standpoint and having his swith hitting bat in the lineup will pose problems for anyone wanting to pitch around Caby! therefor imho VMart is of much greater value being that he can fill three seperate positions. Plus the games and innings that VMart will fill will be invaluable to keeping avila and Caby fresh! Go Blue beat osu! Go Tigers!
DD was after Dunn but felt he wasnt probably going to get him so he went after V Martinez instead of striking out on all of them.
Now we can see what Avila can develop into.
stop overpaying for guys. You don't give 32 year old catchers 4 year deals at 12.5 per year when they're crappy defensive catchers to begin with.
Yes, because free agents are so worried about the Tigers being able to keep a low payroll that they're going to sign for less than we're willing to pay them, to come play for a .500 team.
the point is that he's a (roughly) 4 win catcher who probably won't be able to stay at catcher, and he's probably a 1 or 2 win DH/1st baseman. That means that 12.5 mil per year will be a gross overpay for at least some of that contract.
four wins from a game winning homer or hit? i can see that maybe, but you ARE grossly undervalueing the protection he will give to one of the greatest hitters in the game. Caby will inevitable get more fastballs and or an opposin pitcher wont want to throw their junk as far out of the strike zone and because Caby is most excellently awesome at hitting to the other gap, this combo could be lethal! and as i said in an earlier reply if we have the creative finance we will be with pitching and hitting attractive to crawford! Go Blue beat osu! Go Tigers!
Good defense is cheap - see: Laird, Gerald. You pay the big bucks for .300/20/100 from the catcher position.
bad defense takes away from the value of a player's great offense. If Martinez is worth 5 wins with his bat, but -1 wins with his glove, then he's a 4 win catcher. Which is still great. But if his defense is so bad that he can't stay at catcher and has to move to 1st or DH, then he's only worth 1 or 2 wins. And that's not worth 12.5 per.
Did you just arbitrarily pick those numbers?
His WAR (Wins Above Replacement) last year was 4.0 at catcher. A lot of that comes from the fact that he plays such a demanding defensive position that any offense you can get is a total bonus. By contrast, Adam Dunn was worth approximately 4 wins despite having much better offensive numbers because he was DHing. If Martinez can't play catcher, he's more of a 2 win player than a 4 win player, and isn't worth what the Tigers paid.
played for the washington nationals
if he was DH'ing it was news to him
You're right. But if anything, that strengthens my point. Dunn played in the field and put up a .260/.356/. 536 slash line (good for a .379 wOBA) and was still only good for 4 wins because he wasn't playing a tough defensive position. If Martinez has to DH his value will be significantly, significantly limited. His bat is good, and compared to other catchers it's outstanding, but compared to other designated hitters it is fairly "meh".
maggs was horrible at comerica
the OF is way too big for Dunn to lumber around
he is not going to play 1B with the Tigers we have another guy
Vmart can at least play periodically at a position of need C
to have him DH. He's a much, much better DH option than Martinez is. If you're going to sign Martinez to this deal, you have to intend on making him the full time catcher and keeping him there for 4 years. It simply does not make sense otherwise.
he will not DH...so there you go
Dunn would be a better DH option than Vmart, but thats not the point (I would love a Left handed hitter with some pop FWIW)
VMART is a switch hitter so that should help, he can play a little catcher and do some other things ( he has played 147 games at 1b)
Leyland does not like guys who are only DH's
He will play more catcher this year than in year 4, but he will be a mostly DH guy at the end of this deal
will mostly be a DH guy at the end of this deal. That is why I have a problem with this deal -- his bat just isn't good enough for him to be a 12 million dollar DH.
And I don't believe that Dunn will refuse to play DH. If he does, he's killing his market. Teams aren't stupid anymore, and they know what a terrible fielder he is.
These numbers aren't out of his ass. Go read fangraphs.com. They already have an analysis up on the move.
A question for you - what kind of offensive numbers do you expect from him this and next year? Do you expect him to maintain his current production at his age playing a physically demanding position?
the plan is for him to mostly DH. Probably no more than 40-50 games behind the plate next season. Miggy can still play 3B too, so maybe Martinez at 1B occasionally to give Inge days off.
then they've screwed up royally. A .360 wOBA is outstanding for a catcher, but it's not nearly as good for a DH.
He played 110 games for the Red Sox last year as a catcher. Why would he switch to mostly a DH? This makes no sense when he is a clear upgrade as catcher.
He'll get playing time as DH due to rest and matchups surely, but V-Mart was signed as a catcher, not a DH.
V-Mart will be catching. If you guys played him at DH, what would you do with Carlos Guillen? I don't think you can experiment with him at 2nd again especially given that he will be a year older than last year.
This is a good signing, although not a perfect one. Will certainly help on the offensive side providing some protection for Cabrera. He will be a liability behind the plate, though, and this could come into play against two intra-division teams that like to run in the Twins and Sox. (Yes, I'm a Sox fan, but I'm a huge baseball fan and can be unbiased about things like this, so don't just neg me). But he's an RBI machine and your offense just got much more potent.
That was meant with matchups. When the Tigers are facing running teams, we have the option of playing Avila, move V-Mart to DH based on right/left pitching that day. Guillen is going to get a lot of days off this year I think. He is old and brittle and Leyland is going to try to protect him as much as possible.
he will be non-tendered...will not finish the season as a Tiger
avilla is the starting catcher-his defense is superior to VMART, defense wins games
VMART is the backup catcher primary DH-he is signed as a bat with position flexibility, he may also play a little 1b depending on what Leyland wants to do with Miggy's rest schedule
rhymes/sizemore will play at 2B...book it!
This is a much better deal than Benoit. To be fair, we definitely needed a good setup man, so we'll see how much of an overpayment that contract ends up being in an off-season where every new contract seems to be grossly overpaid. I'm *meh* on the deal as long as he stays healthy..
Werth next please.
Victor to be the primary catcher with Avila backing up. Avila will give Martinez time off from catching position. Martinez isn't a stellar catcher, but his bat makes up for it. Hopefully, he'll help out at the bottom of the order in which the Tigers have struggled all season long.
I'd be shocked if he wasn't hitting 5th behind Cabrera. (Or 4th if Cabrera bats 3rd but I don't see that being ideal).
to hit at the bottom of the order. The Tigers are still going after Adam Dunn who would be a good left handed power hitter for the Tigers. Boesch hit a rookie wall big time, but is the future as a corner outfielder with power. If the Tigers can land Dunn, I can see the order goes like this:
we can get jim thome as a left handed DH for 2million for 1 year
why give dunn 3-4 years for 12 million when you need the DH spot for VMART in the coming years
Tigers need a LH hitting LF or RF, not another DH
Dunn played OF and apparently, he doesn't want to be a DH. The Tigers are going after Dunn hard.
Dunn is basically good for high OBP(lots of walks), 40 HRs, 100 RBI and lots of strikeouts every season.
But a strikeout is, at most, marginally worse than a regular out. And while RBI are meaningless, getting on base is the single most important thing a hitter can do well. Dunn's career OBP is .373, which makes him very valuable, especially if they can convince him to DH (he's a "Miguel Cabrera at third" level butcher in the outfield).
is bad but when you have a player with high OBP, I'm willing to live with a strikeout because he gets on base. Adam Dunn is a bit too patient for my liking but I can't argue with his result because he consistently hit 40 HRs and gets on base.
tigers were mentioned for Dunn
about a week ago, but heyman who leaked the news backed up on his earlier 'tweet' and stated they were one of a few teams with interest
heyman is notorious for posting what agents tell him, perhaps he was trying to play the tigers against the white sox?
Dunn will not play OF at comerica
Dunn will not play 1b for the tigers
Vmart will be the DH
not much room for Adam
and like your analysis! the TIgers are a better team on paper than we finished the season! injuries, general gelling, intangibles, etc. will dertermine how we do because i believe our top three and the phil coke experiment will work and our bully has become stronger and lights out with a healthy valverde! bringing crawford or werth into the fold would be AWESOME but i believe we have talent in our organization that is ready to bust out in the outfield! anyone can speculate and i am speculating first in our division of wild card! Go Blue beat osu! Go Tigers!
This is a meh signing. Martinez is a HORRIBLE defensive catcher. He's already 32 and catchers are notorious for going downhill fast. He'll most likely give good value the first couple years but at the end of the contract we'll be overpaying him.
If he doesn't catch and plays DH or 1B, that's not good value either. There are other good bats out there that we could've grabbed who could fill the DH spot like Dunn.
I'm not crazy about the signing, but Martinez would at least provide some protection for Miggy and bring some stability to the lineup. He's a far better hitter than Avila, and while his defense isn't great, I think we may be overrating the dropoff in terms of stolen bases and the like. The Tigers were a very average defensive club last year, and I wasn't overly impressed with the defense provided by Laird and Avila. Maybe Avila can grow to become a better hitter and fielder, but right now VMart isn't going to suddenly sabotage a great unit. I think he gives you a good bat who you can move around in the lineup, especially toward the bottom where rallies went to die all of last year. People keep pointing out his WAR is about 4 wins - well, 4 wins two years ago gets the team to the playoffs, and last year might have helped break that horrible run out of the AS break. Yes, the salary might be a little high, but FAs are not lining up to come to the Tigers (or really any team in the Central), so I'm fine overpaying a bit if it secures you a good player. I do hope they focus on getting a little younger, though. I'm not sold on Werth as a star in the AL, and I'd rather them grab a couple of infielders and resign Magglio.
Can anyone provide the Tigers DH numbers from last year? I doubt they were very good. Also, we don't have to keep another below average catcher on the team, not with Martinez capable of catching 2 days a week. Martinez may not be ideal, but he is a major upgrade over what we had.
I doubt VM ever catches over 50 games in a season for the Tigers. He'll catch maybe twice a week to spot Avila and DH the rest of the time, maybe spotting at first while Cabrera DHs once in a while. Putting him at catcher only makes sense if we have a DH that's a better hitter than Avila, which is debatable at the moment.
The balance is the need to keep VM's bat healthy and in the lineup and retaining his value as a plus bat behind the plate. Sure, he's more valuable to us catching more in the first couple years of the deal, but you risk running him into the ground and ending up with damaged goods during the last two years of the deal.
One scenario is that the Tigers could be making a kamikaze run at the pennant in 2011 and 2012, in which case they could ride VMart hard at catcher, AND sign Dunn to DH. They'd have a monstrous 3-4-5 for a couple years, but 2013-14 would be ugly as Vmart and Dunn will likely hit steep declines around the same time (vmart from heavy catching mileage, dunn from being a massive old-player-skills guy who tend not to age gracefully). The risk is that if Vmart can't catch anymore and you have dunn who can't play LF, you're in a bad position with 2 guys with big contracts who can only DH.
Guillen should not play.