If you want to fish through all that and eat your own boogers in the process, fine, but Morris was a top of the rotation stud, the ace on 3 World Series teams (1984, 1991, and 1992), and a key pitcher on another (1993). If you actually watched baseball in the 1980's, other than Roger Clemens, there isn't another pitcher in the American League that you would have wanted than Jack Morris.
was a tremendous pitcher. However, maybe you should eat some of your own boogers.... 2 stats that go against your greatness...
- He is 3rd in the 1980's in losses
- He had a postseason ERA of of 3.80... not exactly dominate when it counts.
And I've got 4 items to put against your 2 stats. They're called championship rings. 2 complete games in the 1984 Series, the only pitcher ever to throw a complete game in a Series for Sparky, and Sparky was in a lot of those. Not as relevant, but he also started 3 All Star Games. Not too bad. When it comes to athletic competition, give me the winners over the stats guys every day of the week.
A starting pitcher now starts about 30 regular season games and 2 maybe 3 games a series. Even back in the 80's, starters would see only about 36 starts a year. Even though they have a huge impact on the game they do pitch in, pitching in only about 20-25% of games, you cannot measure a pitcher's success solely on championships.
If you're an NBA GM, would you take Robert Horry on your team over LeBron? Just wondering.
He's my tiger... The dude is on fire.
Going into tonight Weaver had better numbers, but now it's JV. The craziest stat is his WHIP, ich is a tiny 0.84. That's unheard of! Weaver is next best among all starters (not just AL) at 0.92. JV has one more start than Weaver, but now leads by 12 innings pitched and 22 strikeouts. Weaver, Beckett, and Shields have lower ERAs but Verlander is better than all of them in just about every other category. He's tied for the major league lead in wins with Sabathia, but is destroying CC in every other category.
Sorry everyone, but statistically he's the best pitcher in baseball right now whether you're a Tigers fan or not.
Statistically, King Felix isn't even the best pitcher on his own team right now. Pineda has that. I don't think that will last all season, though.
just got home from the game...the guy is ridiculous. I may start going to all his home outings
And Morris won, leading most of the way. 4 rings worth.
get it. Your a Jack Morris fan.
Okay, question for you. Why is it that most of the pitchers at the top of the all-time wins list are generally regarded as the best pitchers of all-time?
also have the other stats that measure a great starting pitcher, in their favor as well besides wins and losses. And the second reason is because most people overvalue wins and losses as a measure to judge starting pitchers
have the most wins I would guess. However, Don Sutton has 324 wins, but with an ERA of 3.26 and 256 losses... I wouldn't consider him one of the greatest of all time. You want to talk about great pitcher, use Jim Palmer as your example.
When's his contact up?
...just kidding! (but not really)
... no I'm kidding (not really)
...kidding I swear....
but not really.
No, you can't have him. Well, maybe you might. Ilitch will be in his late 80's by the time JV's contract is up, so who knows. He's ours for a few years yet.
I'd guess that another member of the Ilitch family will take control of the Tigers. They won't let JV go easily.
Was a warrior. Won World Series with 3 different teams. The winningest pitcher of the 80s. His game 7 - 10 inning - 1-0 win for the Twins is one of the greatest games ever pitched. Verlander is great. He could be better than Jack.
Balling out of control right now.
People can continue to argue about Morris all they want, but within 5 years, Morris is likely to be in the Hall of Fame, whether it's from the BBWAA, or the Veterans Committee, for one simple reason: he won, and he won in big games. And if he goes before the Vets, people that he played against are going to be looking at him. That's what an ace is paid to do. When Justin Verlander has a ring or two, then we can compare him to Morris (and Mickey Lolich, for that matter). Until then, this conversation is comparing apples and oranges.
The ace of your rotation has one job: to go out there and win. Period. Whether it's 7-6 or 2-1 is irrelevant. If you've got a guy who, gee, he went 7 and gave up 2, and took a tough luck loss, and gee, that seems to happen a lot, you're going to have a shitload of 90 loss teams. If you've got a guy who you're saying, "the guy didn't have his best, but he pitched his ass off, kept us in the lead, and got us the win", and that happens a lot, you're going to be much happier with what you see in the standings. A true ace does a helluva lot more of the 2nd example than the first. And that's what Morris was. An ace.
Game 7 of the World Series. You've got your choice of pitchers who pitched a good portion of the prime of their careers in the 1980's. Who you got? Outside of Steve Carlton and maybe Jim Palmer (who was close to done by the early 80's), I want Morris. Yes, over Maddux and Clemens, too. That's pretty rarified air we're talking about here, isn't it?
Thank you, you said it better than I did.
I would gladly take Maddux or Clemens or Verlander and have a better pitching staff. Yes, Morris was a warrior, and an ace, and awesome, and yadda yadda yadda...
But he wasn't a better pitcher than those three and would be beaten by them most times with all else equal.
I guess the point is this: Verlander is having an excellent season. No question. But the comparisons to Morris cannot begin until he does it when the chips are down, when the commissioner is about to hand out that goofy trophy with all the flags on it. And if he does, then we can have this conversation from here until Christmas.
Well, we'll see if Porcello can continue to develop, and if this Jacob Turner is as advertised. We're overdue to have a young starter blow an arm out, and I'm hoping it's not Porcello or Turner.
Whoever is responsible for turning this into a SABR v. Traditional thread deserves to have their children killed.
Well, don't blame me, then. I just made an innocent comment.
Another member of the Ilitch family taking over the Tigers is exactly what concerns me. Remember how this team was managed 10 years ago? That was when Chris and Denise were involved. Remember the pissing match between Denise Ilitch and Todd Jones?
I figure we've got about a 3 year window to cash one in here. 4 years tops. Ilitch is going to be 82 next month.
Don't you ever mention Todd Jones' name again.
:D Sorry. I'd prefer not to mention the Ilitch kids again, either.
pretty prettty prettttyyy pretttttyyttyytyyy y good.