OT - USC/PAC 10/12 already politicking tUofOSU re potential NCAA sanctions
The PAC 10/12 and member school USC (recently stung by the NCAA not reducing any of their penalties following the Reggie Bush/Pete Carroll corruption era) indicate they are keepign an eye on the Ohio State situation and expecting some sort of equality in the punishment. Great.
Enjoy. Nothing like teams I hate...hating each other.
"I respect USC's decision to take the high ground and not pursue any further recourse to the NCAA ruling,'' Pac-12 commissioner Larry Scott said. "At the same time, I fully expect that every NCAA member institution be held to the same high standards.''
Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/football/ncaa/wires/05/28/2060.ap.fbc.tim.dahlberg.052811.1065/index.html#ixzz1Nfo5nX1T
they appealed the decision! what "further recourse" did they have?
that said, keep em honest, trojans!
Is USC entitled to due process (or whatever the term is for a non-police body) from the NCAA? It's an organization that they voluntarily associate with, so it seems like they aren't entitled to much. Honest question though, I don't know.
I do agree that USC would never sue for the reasons you said. Their best option is to keep quiet for a few years and then get back to ruling the Pac.
On further review, the US Supreme Court case Tarkanian v. NCAA disagrees with you. They have no due process claim as both institutions are private actors.
In the sense that they have a due process claim, the SC lays it out in black and white. Basically, UNLV argued that the NCAA is a quasi-governmental body (claiming that it has authority over a state institution like UNLV [which is a claim USC would not have]) and the Court rebutted that in pretty harsh wording. Based on that, there is no claim to due process from the NCAA.
It seems like violating their own procedures would be an entirely different lawsuit, not dependent on due process but predicated on a faulty contractual relationship.
Again, this is just what I'm surmising from reading the case, someone feel free to BOOM LAWYER'D me if this is actually incorrect, but I would also like them to tell me how it is incorrect, because it seems simple to me.
It is, and that's a point I should have brought up after you mentioned due process the first time. It was a 14th Amendment case, so California might have some other applicable law that would still be something resembling due process.
However, like you and I have both said, it's a moot point anyway because USC does not want the NCAA in a position to subpoena Bush, Carroll and however many thousands of pieces of paper they have in their compliance office.
I'm no lawyer, but the NCAA isn't a government institution, so I'm not sure how due process figures in here. No one is forcing USC to be a part of the NCAA. They choose to be a part of the Association and abide by its decisions.
Not true, according to the US Supreme Court.
Why is that? I would think they could try and recover any fees they paid to the NCAA or sue for damages if things didn't work out, but why in general would two private entities owe each other due process? Does USC's status as a private school change anything?
I really should have studied law...I'm a nerd.
I was thinking the same thing. Maybe they could have brought it before mediation or a court of law, but I'm not sure they had many more options other than the rather lengthy appeal process.
But then again, USC and OSU seem like they are both full of it, so they might as well keep an eye on each other.
Because witnesses could be called to testify, documents could be subpoenaed, etc. Before, things were relatively limited -- NCAA provides a notice of allegations, USC shows why things aren't all that bad, decision is made.
This goes to court, we start all over with gathering evidence, but this time with the force of law behind it. Who knows what could be turned up. They'd be nuts to sue.
Taking the high ground? It seems like begrudgingly accepting a Supreme Court ruling without going all Andrew Jackson. USC has no further recourse beyond simply not complying with the sentence.
Even so, I do find this hilarious. If the Pac gets their way (and I doubt Delaney is in much of a position to fight) OSU is looking at USC penalties minimum, which is nice.
Reality says the penalties should probably be worse than USC's penalties. The Reggie Bush affair was absurd, but ultimately, the NCAA found (with questionable evidence) that exactly one player cheated and one assistant knew or should have known. There may have been more going on, but the NCAA never examined it.
In OSU's case, many, many players may have cheated and the head coach actively covered up at least a portion of it. The only thing Reggie Bush did that was obviously worse was the monetary scale of the cheating. OSU needs to convince the NCAA that Tressel "went rogue" or something to that effect or they could really get hammered.
The basketball team got something like one scholarship for a couple years and probation. The serious penalties were about football, which is all that really matters for OSU.
I do agree with ZL though, OSU is in a lot of trouble if the NCAA uses the USC standard; like he said, this involves far more than one athlete getting a house for his parents miles and miles away from campus. Using their logic in the Bush case, OSU should have known this went on, and they're going to get hammered for not knowing.
my understanding is alledged deals were also available to basketball players too.
They examined it thoroughly (4 plus years) but never found it. USC's transgressions were almost non-existent compared to what took place at OSU.
Lack of Institutional Control was not in the original Notice of Allegations. However, based on the testimony given by tOSU and Tressel at the hearing in August, in addition to all of the revelations that have come out in the press since April, (assuming they can be substantiated) the NCAA can include it in th penalty phase.
It would be hard to use the "Tressel went rogue" defense if the AD and prez keep talking about what a swell guy Tressel is. Also, they keep giving their compliance dept the "superior" ratings. I have no idea how the NCAA evaluates these things, but it would just seem like that is indicating a total lack of institutional control. After all, OSU is indicating that they think they are doing a great job. How can they claim to have institutional control, when, by their own accounts, they haven't the slightest clue that their staff isn't doing their jobs?
I didn't say it would be easy to show Tressel had "gone rogue" or anything like it, but they need to demonstrate that he deliberately mislead the school, despite its best efforts. Fortunately, they keep stomping on their collective crank instead.
I didn't think you were implying that they'd be able to pull that off, and if what I wrote sounded that way, I misspoke. I was just pointing out that I don't think that will work, and more importantly, I think that all of their attempts to protect Tressel will end up biting them in the rear. I don't know your take, but if someone repeatedly talks about what a great coach someone is, even after the dirt comes out, I am less likely to see that coach as a rogue.
What I was trying to say (unclearly) is that it strikes me that Gee and Smith are painting a picture of a school where they are all in cahoots, not where one guy is subverting the system. I think this will be one of the things that does them all in. I'd be just as surprised to see Gee and Smith at OSU in a year as I would Tressel. Also, I do think that the penalties will end up describing a pattern at OSU, and not the actions of one coach in one program. If they somehow end up with the same penalties as USC, they should say a Hail Mary or something, because it looks like they will get tossed into the depths of football hell otherwise . . .
Agreed on everything. I said at the beginning of the scandal that Tressel wouldn't coach for OSU again and I still think there's a pretty good chance I'm right. I think OSU's administration needed to come off as very angry at Tressel and "punish" him instead of having him "ask" to be suspended for five gamedays. Gee and Smith along with the other decisionmakers at OSU have collectively screwed this whole thing away from the start.
I'm not sure whether or not the NCAA is going to decide this is a lack of institutional control, primarily because I'm not sure sure what is going to actually come up in August. I think the August hearing is going to be focused solely on the tattoos and memorabilia and how Tressel covered it up. I think the rest is going to be compiled into a much, much longer investigation that won't bear fruit for another year or so.
Two investigations of OSU, one right now for the tatts and the cars, and another more general and thorough one that might cover the overall culture going back to the Clarett days? I haven't heard that as a possibility, but it would make sense . . .
The NCAA has to give some amount of notice to the school with a formal notice of allegations, set a hearing time, review evidence, etc. I think OSU's notice of allegations only covered tatgate and Tressel's coverup. Everything else is probably out of bounds (formally) right now.
"... indicate they are keepign an eye on the Ohio State situation and expecting some sort of equality in the punishment."
does this imply that the two situations are equal? Because I think that Ohio is going to be way worse and I think the NCAA is going to hammer them.
When I read the title of this post my brain almost exploded.
only to survive a flood of sanctions. Too funny. Their cheating goes well beyond Reggie Bush, it was the worst kept secret in college athletics. Urban Meyer talked openly about it on ESPN because it was so obvious. The entire Pete Carrol saga was a joke and when he runs away from the penalties he shouts over his shoulder "How dare anybody accuse our pure and virtuous program of illicit dealings. You disgust me!" They bought so many players that every year analysts accused them of hurting their own strength of schedule, weakening the entire conference by "over-recruiting." Glad to see they "did the right thing" by not further appealing their slap on the wrist punishment for the only thing they were actually caught doing. Makes it worse for Kiffin and (now) Tressel. He didn't break the rules nearly as bad as U$C but they have so much proof against him. His lesser cheating could carry a greater penalty.
Steve Fisher didn't break any rules, either, but he did look the other way while the inmates ran the asylum. Michigan's BB program ended up in a ten-year hole. TSIO deserves at least that much.
Who is the college football equivalent of Brian Ellerbee???
John L. Smith
Yes, didn't break the rules nearly as badly as U$C. Looking the other way while players get discounts and not telling on them or yourself is bad, yet it's not as dirty as using the Rivals 100 as a shopping list and buying every kid on the west coast a house and giving their parents jobs. Assembling a NCAA All Star team is way, way worse than playing the thugs you already have (even though they were ineligable.) That's what SMU got the Death Penalty for, buying players over and over again. The major difference between the sleaziest programs ie: U$C, SMU, Miami, FSU, Oklahoma- and Tressel is Tressel got caught. He's still dirty, but he doesn't make me want to puke like that 30 for 30 video about Miami does.
USC took the high ground the same day the Los Angeles chapter of Five Dollar Hookers for Purity was formed.
entities-NCAA is not subject to it. Was a consitiutional lawyer for awhile.