OT: Two OU Students in SAE Fraternity Expelled
Just saw in the Chicago Trib that (LINK) two fraternity students were expelled for their role in the racist chant at OU. Those of you who are interested have already been following the story. University of Oklahoma president Boren indicated that this was not the end of sanctions.
I still am waiting to see what happens with the Michigan Sammie episode at Treetops in January. I know the amount of estimated damages has quadrupled, and is yet to reach a final determination. I also am curious what the University will do regarding individual students.
Both the racist chants at OU and the property destruction by UofM fraternity students, have caused me to reflect on my time in a fraternity at Michigan. Especially being a house with roots in the south (albeit founded after the Civil War.) Did my fraternity have racist chants or wanton destruction of property?
As for racism, I know that we had guys in the house who were Jewish, Asian, and Indian. I don't remember any African-American men, but there were no stipulations against them. We didn't have any race specific fraternity songs or chants. As far as property destruction goes, most damage was internal (trashed house after parties.) I had other problems with the fraternity rituals, but none regarding race. I'm curious about the experience of others who were in fraternities, whether at Michigan or elsewhere. Was there anything which upon reflection, you regret, in terms of going along with something that was just wrong?
This was my experience too. Haha in fact, we had a large number of Indian brothers at one point. When new friends learned what house I was in I routinely got asked, "How'd you end up in the Indian fraternity?"
"Just a song"? Are you fucking kidding me?
I suggest you try that argument with someone black and see how far it gets you. Also, I do not recall any rap songs discussing lynching people as an alternative to having them join your social club...
Its cleary not racist because the violence isn't racially motivated. Furthermore, the lyric is most likely written by another black person. The only black person I ever saw who was racist against other blacks was blind, didn't know he was black, and also a fictional character in a Chappelle show skit.
Let me explain how it works to you. When members of an oppressed minority want to disarm or reclaim a very hurtful word, they often transform it into a term of endearment. It transforms the word into a different context.
However, when the word is used by members of the same social class that used it to hurt/oppress, the word cannot be interpreted in the new context of solidarity, it remains in the old context of oppression. If this is too hard to understand for you I suggest hanging out at the Rivals/Scout board. I really hope you don't/didn't attend my beloved University of Michigan. I can tolerate different viewpoints but not plain stupidity.
SHOCKER!!!! /s
No, its not about ignorance. Ignorance means you were never had a chance to learn how something works. If you don't know why using the n-word in a rap song vs. a lynching song by white people is not the same thing, you either have some form of autism or you are stupid. Its really not hard to understand, at all, unless you have a disability that prevents you from understanding simple social rules.
Upvoted for Clayton Bigsby reference!
I think you answered the question yourself. It's all about context. These white people were not only using the word with a hard-r, but in the context of segregation and lynching. Most people agree that this is a very bad thing and not acceptable in society. In a rap song, the term (without the hard r) is used in the context of a person I have a beef with, or even as a term of endearment as you put it. Although many would agree that the term shouldn't be used in any form, I think those many would also agree that the context is much different.
Perhaps you have not been the subject of real racism, (except of course being upset that you and Donald Sterling, as white people, can't use the n word, while black people seemingly can) but its very shitty to be subjected to such treatment.
Because Black people using the N-word in a rap is equally bad as White people using it in a song about exclusion and lynching...
I don't like hearing the word in music either, but you may want to go into the dictionary and look up the word "context." After that, I suggest reading about American history.
So basically, you're out of your element, Donny, so shut the fuck up.
March 11th, 2015 at 12:26 AM ^
What an arrogant fuck you are. It's not easy when you're the smartest guy in the room, is it. Doin' your beloved school proud.
This came up in the thread yesterday.
No matter how horrible the song was, and it was, expelling someone for having an opinion is a dangerous precedent to set.
Yep.
I'm not sure if the group "BAMN" still exists at Michigan, but that group is about as racist as it gets. Expelling students for racist beliefs is a very dangerous precedent.
And they're still just as crazy as ever.
They were not among themselves. There was a bus full of some sorority, clearly there were people there that were not singing and were not part of the fraternity. They were not "among themselves."
1) Remember, the law doesn't apply here. Its the rules of the University, just like rape accusations (a whole othe rtopic)
2). It could be argued that creating a hostile environment is akin to shouting fire in a public place. Maybe you're right, technically, if the video hadn't got out and they were being horrible people on their own time. But the video did get out, and that kind of racism is not simply an "opinion" but has been proven, throughout the history of this country, to be very dangerous for minorities. Hence the imperfect fire analogy.
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March 11th, 2015 at 12:55 AM ^
Sorry gbdub, the constitution was burned further up the thread.
Knowing full well you are part of an orginazation that supports this racism at other chapters you are no better than those at the other chapters.
Not to mention that every big organization has members that do bad things. If everyone else disassociated themselves from a group when something terrible came to light, there would be no fraternities, alumni associations, political parties, organized religion, veteran organizations or pretty much any other large group you care to name.
March 11th, 2015 at 12:37 AM ^
Give it up guys, you can't just pretend that the associative law of racism doesn't exist!
There is another OU video going around that shows the Sammie house mom singing the N (not Nebraska) word over and over. She claims it was a misunderstanding and she is not a racist and has friends of color.
Not sure if attitudes have changed much, but they are more out in the open. I found the many houses in the UM Greek system pretty elitist and with more than their share of racism. Just my experience. Hopefully it has improved.
I would've thought that Paula Dean had enough money to retire after her whole racist incident, but I guess she burned through it if she had to go work as a cook/house mom for a bunch of OU dudes.
Zoltan, I think you mean the SAE house mom, not the Sammie house mom. It would be too ironic for her to be at Sammie: their history, according to Wikipedia, is a Jewish only Fraternity from their founding in New York in 1909 until they became "open" in 1953. LINK: Sigma Alpha Mu. SAE, on the other hand, was founded in 1856 at Alabama, and their heritage as a fraternity from the deep south would explain (but not excuse) this kind of racism.
Sammie is definitely a Jewish house. My best man, who is not Jewish, was a Sammie at UVa and that was a great house. The southern angle is a whole different animal, especially when you get to rural areas.
When I crossed in 2007 there were several white members joining at the same time. 8 years later there are hundreds more. A good organization's criteria works from the inside out.
If it were me, I'd expell every single piece of shit in that fraternity. Just letting this go on without speaking up is enough to no longer be at the school IMO.
the appeal of fraternities. Grown men paddling each other just isn't my thing I guess.
As for the topic at hand, I'm not fond of the idea of expelling a student for something they said, no matter how awful it was. It would have been better to get these guys some help and maybe influence their thinking in a more positive way.
Throwing them out is just going to serve to reinforce their already backward way of thinking. They'll be blaming the N*****S for getting them thrown out of school for the rest of their lives.
your joke detector.
Seriously though, I don't know much about frats other than what I saw at parties. Which wasn't anything remarkable or unique for people in their late teens and early 20's.
same concerns about most groups. Which is why I describe myself as a "Cafeteria Catholic".
The only thing I'm a member of is MGoBlog. And Facebook.
What about the girl in the video? Shouldn't she be suspended for not stopping them?
Let's dispense with the "was I a racist and didn't know it" navel gazing. Were you singing racist chants? Were you framing a black man between making floats and picking out blazers for your [seasonal] formal? Spreading pre-WWII era anti-semtic pamphlets on the way to the future Mrs. Kass' sorority house?
No? You're probably OK. All of us have probably done some things that are based on race, and that we regret. And when I say all I'm including people other than white people. Tying that type of sentiment to all frat activities is the definition of taking a current event way past its relevancy cycle. You're pushing an issue because you like to be on record as being against racism. This is a good thing, but you probably commented in the other thread(s) on this issue. Pushing it past justifiable outrage into the realm of tenuous connection weakens the issue. "I'm white and I breathed air today, was I racist?" isn't a good starting point for moving forward on things that need to change. Rather, keep pointing at the SAE chanters at OU and make sure they're expelled. Raise your fist of power if it's glossed over. Maybe call some of your old frat buddies, if they went to Michigan I'd say chances are very good they're outraged as well.