December 2nd, 2013 at 8:51 PM ^
December 2nd, 2013 at 8:55 PM ^
Better defender and can actually hit. When I said Infante's role, I mean as a utility IF.
December 2nd, 2013 at 9:07 PM ^
Umm...Lombardozzi is not much of a hitter. A .639 career OPS is not exactly George Brett here:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/lombast02.shtml
He's basically Danny Worth, maybe a little bit more.
December 2nd, 2013 at 9:12 PM ^
as a .290-.300 hitter in the MLB. It's his 2nd year in the MLB. He hit over .300 in the minor league. Look at his minor league numbers, it's better than you think. Project as a plus defender with a good bat.
December 2nd, 2013 at 9:45 PM ^
December 2nd, 2013 at 9:04 PM ^
fister is an excellent youngish pitcher. in 2012 he was nails even though he didn't get any runs, this year he was excellent most of the year. salary cap may be the motive ($~7MM/yr in arbitration if he stayed), but they better have an identified target for that pitching slot.
December 2nd, 2013 at 9:13 PM ^
will be the #5 starter in the starting rotation and Porcello replace Fister at #4.
December 3rd, 2013 at 5:26 AM ^
aren't grabbing me, so to speak. i think fister is an excellent big league pitcher. those two are servicable pitchers. not liking this trade so far.
December 2nd, 2013 at 9:04 PM ^
December 2nd, 2013 at 9:10 PM ^
the Tigers went into the off-season in the market for the following: bullpen help (including a closer), a 2nd baseman, a backup catcher, and a speedy, power-hitting left fielder. We got our 2nd baseman, Kinsler, in the Fielder trade, which also seems to have opened the door for Castellanos to be either given a shot at 3rd base or that LF spot---or will DD still try to trade for a LF with more speed and experience?
That leaves, if nothing else, the bullpen and backup catcher issues yet to be resolved. Don't be surprised if one or two of those Nats acquired for Fister are somehow part of a package to address those other needs, Dombrowski seems to often be a chess move or two ahead when it comes to setting up his next deal.
December 2nd, 2013 at 9:20 PM ^
Also need another bat, preferably in LF. We did take about 190 RBI out of the order in Fielder and Peralta, and only made up about 60.
December 2nd, 2013 at 11:36 PM ^
Yes. This is crucial to recognize. I liked the Fielder move, and V-Mar can step into that role for another year or two and serve to protect Miguel. They do need find some more RBIs somewhere, though.
The move seems to make it clear, that they will sign Scherzer. If that's the case, then we're looking at three ultra-high dollar players who the Tigers will want to keep long-term (Verlander, Scherzer, MIguel). Part of the salary gained from Fister may well go to Cabrera's new contract, which the Tigers and Migues were supposedly working on this summer.
December 2nd, 2013 at 9:11 PM ^
Not sure I like this deal. Why are the Tigers so hell bent on having Smyly in the rotation? It takes a quality left hander out the bullpen. Our bullpen was weak enough to begin with.
December 2nd, 2013 at 9:17 PM ^
Because a good pitcher pitching six or seven innings is more valuable than a good pitcher pitching one or two innings. If it's that important to have a lefty in the pen, it's probably also important to have one in the rotation.
Oh, and P.S.: Ian Krol is a lefty. So it puts a quality lefty back in the bullpen anyway.
December 2nd, 2013 at 9:55 PM ^
is he a quality lefty though? i have serious doubts. the tigers traded a solid starter for 2 questionable lefty relievers and a utility guy. not good, imo. i was hopeful that they would package porcello for a good lefty bat then sign a serviceable lefty for the bullpen.
December 2nd, 2013 at 10:04 PM ^
December 2nd, 2013 at 10:07 PM ^
why is he doubting Robbie Ray? He's a lefty who can go up to 96 and has the stuff to be a really good set up man.
December 3rd, 2013 at 10:07 AM ^
According to reports ray avg 93 mph on his fastball but can hit mid 90s. Fister is a proven commodity. All the guys the tigers got in return are not; appear to be role players.
December 3rd, 2013 at 10:30 AM ^
Here's the thing about Robbie Ray: He can be traded for anything. While a bird in the hand is much better, Dombrowski's modus operandi is to stockpile pitching prospects and trade them for what he needs. He does this all the time. Bet you Ray gets traded for something useful before he pitches 10 games with the Tigers.
December 2nd, 2013 at 10:15 PM ^
Phil Coke is a "serviceable" lefty, which is to say, he doesn't implode sometimes. I'll bet you can't find one that matches Krol's 3.95 ERA and comes as cheaply. Krol tailed off some in September but that's to be expected in one's first major-league season. He's 22. I don't know what else you'd want, because "serviceable" is a euphemism for a journeyman who sometimes has a good season and sometimes doesn't. Show me a relief pitcher who isn't a risk to fall apart and I'll show you a future starter or Mariano Rivera. Krol's as good as any and better than quite a few.
December 3rd, 2013 at 10:12 AM ^
you can find lefties like him on the free agent list. i disagree trading a proven #3 starter for the bit parts they got back.
December 3rd, 2013 at 10:29 AM ^
No, you can't. Every reliever on the FA list is 27 or older. Last year's cheapest reliever went for $1.5 million. That was lefty Oliver Perez, with a career ERA of over 4.50 and a WHIP close to 1.50. Krol goes for roughly league minimum and he is younger than the whole free-agent market and better than most.
Go to the free agent list and tell me which lefty you'd rather have.
December 2nd, 2013 at 9:15 PM ^
December 2nd, 2013 at 9:34 PM ^
We can't hoard it forever, man. And it's much easier to trade that pitching for other pieces we need, instead of doing it the other way around.
December 2nd, 2013 at 9:39 PM ^
I've always liked Fister so I'm torn, but he has a ceiling and I think we've seen it. If they think Smyly or Porcello can step in and this frees up space for Sherzer, it makes sense. Plus, maybe they'll get a couple of nice pieces back. Dombrowski has been making the right calls recently, so I'll give him my vote.
December 2nd, 2013 at 9:41 PM ^
Krol was excellent after his call up last year but faded toward the end of the season. He should be a solid LR.
Ray is suppose to be a very promising prospect. There's been a lot of buzz about him over the last year. I suspect he'll be the big win of the haul for Detroit.
December 2nd, 2013 at 10:23 PM ^
December 2nd, 2013 at 10:35 PM ^
December 3rd, 2013 at 9:56 AM ^
he would be a 3B because of defensive liability. Much easier to hide it at corner OF as opposed to 3B. There is a reason why they moved him to LF
December 2nd, 2013 at 11:14 PM ^
I love this trade. I'm not even sure what the Tigers were thinking, honestly. Fister is a solid top 25 pitcher, if not better, and his move to the NL, plus a team with great fielding, will do wonders. Lombardozzi is a mediocre bench hitter, at best. The prospects are decent, not great, but the Nats are in win-now mode.
Here's some solid analysis of the trade: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/nationals-steal-doug-fister-from-tigers/
December 2nd, 2013 at 11:31 PM ^
I'm not quite sure what I think about this trade at this point. Seems to me it did two things:
In the near term...
- Further reduced payroll, making it easier to extend Scherzer and/or Cabrera. I'd be fine with that happening.
- Upgraded our utility man position. Basically, Lombardozzi is a better version of Ramon Santiago.
- Potentially bolstered the 'pen with Krol - might have to wait and see.
In the long term...
- Krol and Lombardozzi also fall under this - they're both young and likely haven't reached their peaks yet, so we could see some good baseball from them yet. If they pan out, we'll have a solid lefty arm in the 'pen, and a legit utility man (or even an everyday 2b, should DD trade Kinsler or something).
- Robbie Ray. This guy looks intriguing. Biggest potential downside with him is the walks at this point - thought that's fairly common with young guys, and he's trending in the right direction right now. If he can continue to reduce the walks and keep his K rate, he could be good.
December 3rd, 2013 at 2:33 AM ^
The more I think about this trade, the more I hate it.
You give up a proven, cheap, #3 starter for basically a bunch of unproven stuff? .This is the OPPOSITE of all the moves DD has made to make the Tigers so good.
Fister was good and not crazy expensive. The odds of the players DD got back contributing at the level that Fister contributed is almost zero. And heaven help the Tigers if any of their rotation gets hurt.
I think this was a really dumb move, unless there was some reason the TIgers believe Ray or Krol is going to be an All-Star. I think Lombardozzi is pretty much junk.
December 3rd, 2013 at 6:56 AM ^
A: Heaven help any team if any one of their starters goes down. That cannot be part of your argument.
B: You can't look at the move in isolation when it is so obvious that there are subsequent moves to come.
C: "A bunch of unproven stuff" is a little too negative. Lombardozzi is an excellent fielder who hit .260 in his rookie year without getting everyday ABs. He's like a Don Kelly that can actually hit. He's only 25. He will provide immediate value and could be a big time player down the road. Calling him "pretty much junk" is really extreme. Have you seen him play? Have you done any research?
D: Fister's ERA has risen sharply in each of the last three years. His K's are up significantly, I'll give you. However, the biggest thing is his whip was higher than Rick Porcello's on the year: 1.31 to 1.28.
December 3rd, 2013 at 10:53 AM ^
Fister's BAA this year was also .332, over 30 points above his career average, which explains his increased WHIP. Then again, that could easily be attributed to the Tigers pretty terrible infield defense, and therefore wasn't going to change which is maybe why they wanted to trade him. As a groundball pitcher, he has much more value to a team like the Nats that have a pretty great defensive infield (although Zimmerman has been questionable lately). Porcello is a groundball pitcher too though, so I'm not sure that's any better for the Tigers (dumping Prince will help if they can bring in a good 3B and slide Miggy back to first).
And as a Nats fan, I can tell you that Lombardozzi is pretty much garbage. I watch him play a lot, and I view getting rid of him as a good bonus to this trade. FYI, he hit 270 his rookie year, then 260 last year. He has NO power, and his OBP regressed last year (to 278!). He doesn't work counts, which makes him kind of worthless as a pinch hitter. If the Tigers are planning on starting him, maybe he'll improve in an everyday role, but as a utility guy he is pretty bad. And he was supposed to have speed, but that hasn't materialized in the majors either. He could always turn it around though.
As I mentioned earlier, as a Nats fan I'm elated with this trade - so much so that I can't believe it's real. When I saw the headline, I assumed the Nats gave up someone like Rendon or Storen to land Fister. The only way this makes sense to me is if the Tigers know something about Fister that the Nats don't, and he's about to regress badly - crossing my fingers this isn't the case.
December 3rd, 2013 at 1:02 PM ^
Yes I did research. Lobardozzi is, IMO, garbage. In 2 seasons of decent MLB AB's he's put up pathetic numbers. His OBP is crap. I think I have more chance of hitting a home run sitting here at my keyboard that he does.
I will give you that his minor league numbers indicate a decent singles hitter, but they also indicate a guy who doesn't walk too much, so his OBP is always likely going to suck, and unfortunately he seems to be unable to hit MLB pitching. That is a pretty terrible combo.
Sure, he might suddently "get" it. So might a bunch of players. But he's 25--so he's not exactly super young in terms of prospects.
Who knows about the young pitchers. They are more wildcards.
The only way this deal makes any sense to me is if we are moving the young arms on for an established player of some sort.
December 3rd, 2013 at 2:23 PM ^
Lombardozzi is not garbage, but he's not someone you need to trade for. Justin Turner was just nontendered and is probably a better fielder, worse hitter than Lombardozzi, but slightly more versatile. Krol profiles best as a LOOGY and still has control issues. If money weren't an issue, there are a dozen guys out there who profile better -- indeed, one of those guys will likely sign with the Nats before February rolls around. Lack of a reliable lefty was one of Washington's weaknesses last year and while Krol helped, no one viewed him as an answer. I've done more reading on Ray since last night, and am somewhat more positive about him. He was low ranked coming into the 2013 season, but his stock is on the rise. Baseballamerica.com ranked him fifth in Washington's minor league organization; www.baseballhq.com was prepared to release its Washington organization ranking with him as number six before last night's trade. That said, Ray was at best Washington's third best pitching prospect behind Lucas Giolito and AJ Cole and was also considered behind guys like Tanner Roark, Taylor Jordan and Nathan Karns all of whom got starts for Washington last season. I also understand the Tigers coveted Jordan but the Nats refused to include him in the deal.
As for Fister, his sabremetric numbers are off the chart. They are arguably among the ten best in baseball over the last three years. While someone said that he's gotten worse over the past couple of years, the stats belie that sentiment. Yes, his surface numbers are slightly in decline, but that's been due to bad luck. His percentage of balls in play that end in hits was elevated the last two years over typical levels. Looking at his supporting skills, they have been extremely stable, and he would have been in better shape in 2014 with the Tigers' improved infield defense -- Fister is one of the best ground ball pitchers around.
December 3rd, 2013 at 4:37 PM ^
the worse I feel. I think this will probably go down as one of the worst if not the worst Tiger trade of my lifetime. It's just utterly non-sensical. It made the Tigers instantly worse for absolutely no reason.
Fangraphs:
Trade is a "Bonanza" for Nationals. "Outright robbery"
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/nationals-steal-doug-fister-from-tigers/
December 3rd, 2013 at 8:23 PM ^
Fangraphs also calls Fister a top-20 pitcher in the league, which is quite the exaggeration. The Tigers alone have three that are better, and it's not that hard to come up with 17 more.