landing spot. will be interesting to see how he does.
OT: Tigers trade Doug Fister to Nats (Lombardozzi, Krol, Ray)
Tigers very active this offseason.
Hopefully they got something good and this wasn't a salary dump.
Don't forget, even a salary dump is something. I've heard rumors we go get BOTH Joe Nathan and Brian Wilson. This could free up the money to do so and turn our bullpen from a weakness to a decided strength.
I'm not sure I really want Brian Wilson. Baseball-wise it'd be a solid pickup.... I just think sometimes "being colorful" is a euphemism for "attention whore" and when you wear a Spandex bodysuit to the ESPY's, you're creeping toward being the latter.
He does his job. Who gives a shit what he wears?
I don't like buying closers. They are up and down by nature. All star one year , cut the next.
Dude could have a tea party out there on the mound and I could care less as long as he closes.
Looks like we're going all-in for Scherzer, though, which is good. Also, big vote-of-confidence for Porcello.
Obviously, we need to see what we get in return, but I tend to like this. Fister was not as dominant this year and he may be trending down. With 3 of the most dominant pitchers, Smyly, and Porcello, I still think they have one of the best rotations in the game, especially if Porcello keeps moving forward. Buy low and sell high.
Huh. Guess this puts Smyly in the rotation. Fister's a really solid pitcher and I'll be sorry to see him go, but if Smyly and Porcello pitch like they did for most of last year, they'll be fine.
Best and worst random tweet: "If the Tigers traded Fister for late-inning relief help, I am going to take Dombrowski for a ride in a shiny red Porsche Carrera."
Ouch. Too soon.
Per this CBS article here - LINK .
Mike Axisa writes:
"Washington has been looking to bolster its rotation behind Stephen Strasburg, Jordan Zimmermann and Gio Gonzalez this offseason while Detroit was shopping a starter in an effort to free up cash and a rotation spot for Drew Smyly. Matt Swartz of MLB Trade Rumors projected Fister to earn $6.9 million in his second trip through arbitration."
It is a developing story, so they ask people to "stay tuned", if you will.
I'll wait to see what the return is, but getting rid of a consistent innings eater and a #3 starter doesn't sit well with me. That said Dombrowski has earned the benefit of the doubt, and probably made a financial decision he feels comfortable with.
He might be a #3 or even #2 starter on another team, but he was the #4 starter for the Tigers.
Any word on who is coming back?
I'm hearing Storen along wih Lombardozzi and Ray. Storen has had success as a closer -- until game five of the 2012 NLDS. Lombardozzi is a good utility player. Ray is a longshot to ever have more than a cup of coffee in the majors.
Edit: didn't read enough posts before posting myself.
I say we offer castellanos, crawford, Porcello, Perez to the marlins for Stanton ! Get it done !
And then we'd be down to 4 starters. Great idea.
Well I would have preferable done that and not this trade but getting Stanton would be worth finding a servicable 5th starter.
Back up a minute here. Who is this Crawford that you're sending to Miami?
I'm assuming Jonathon Crawford the tigers top draft pick/pitching prospect from last year.
Oh. Okay. I'd forgotten about him. If they drafted him last year, he's got to be a PTBNL. And I'm not sure that's enough to pry Stanton from Miami.
I'm not sure that's enough either but it's got to be close. That's a pretty decen tpackage there. If they needed someone else such as Rondon throw him in also. I think Stanton has the potential to be a perenial all-star and top 10 hitter, and his low side is still pretty good.
He's already a top-ten hitter. He doesn't get anything to hit now because he's essentially surrounded by a lineup full of Alex Avilas and Don Kellys. They're going to want the sun, moon, and half of Jupiter for him.
I seem to recall them trading away a decent hitter to the tigers for less than half the solar system. Sure we had to take Willis too, but we still came out of it okay.
Yeah, but I think they're fresh out of lefties that can't hit the strike zone that they can force us to take.
I hope they get some bullpen helps return. They need different arms back there. You can't go into the season with the same relievers as last season. I'll miss Fister. he was solid, but not dominate. He always seemed to have a bad in Inge early in the game. M
Don Kelly got re- signed....so its World Series or bust now!
damn that Inge!
I really hope Dave knows what he's doing because this is turning out to be a big shakeup to the team.
The Furbush-Fister trade is going to be hard to top. Best I could find on the Nats 40 man roster was Brown-FIster or possibly Hairston-Fister.
trade. This only makes sense if that happens. Losing Scherzer and Fister knocks the Tigers back to mediocrity.
You cannot say if this is a horrible trade until we learn what is done with the money that was going to Fister.
Fister is a guy who has a huge blinking neon light above him that says "Career on decline." He's still, obviously, a plus pitcher. However, the gap between him and Porcello is no longer that big. For the sake of argument, let's say they're even. You shouldn't be paying that salary to your #4/5 starter. Give Smyly a run, free up $$$ to resign Scherzer as well as get some 'pen help.
Also, don't overlook the fact that Lombardozzi is a significant upgrade over Hernan Perez as the bench infielder.
And a passable insurance policy at third base.
Porcello's ERA last year was 4.32. That was his best year since 2009 and the 2nd best season of his career. To compare, that would have ranked as the WORST season of Doug Fister's career. Porcello isn't even in the same league as Doug Fister.
Porcello's season needs to be evaluated without the 9-run disaster he gave up against LA in April. Without that outlier his ERA is 3.87. That and a 1.28 WHIP is awfully solid, especially for a still-improving 24-year-old pitcher. Easy to forget he's still at an age where a lot of guys are just barely making their debuts.
went from a 1 bean pitcher to a 4-5 bean pitcher--Fister is still worth 15 +. Let's not pretend otherwise. The trade may be good, depending on what we get and what it allows the Tigers to do, but not because Fister and Porcello are a push.
I didn't say they were.
i would have traded porcello two years ago when teams still may have thought he had huge upside. i've never been a big fan and i definitely like fister and smyly over him.
he seems to have slipped a bit each of the last two seasons, not seeming to be nearly as consistant from one start to the next. Porcello has had that same problem ever since the start of his career, but more and more seems to be overcoming that. As I see it, these are two pitchers that are somewhat similar in what they bring, both relying somewhat more on ground balls than the other Tiger starters, but pitchers that seem to be trending in opposite directions at this point in their careers.
With Porcello being more of a sinkerball pitcher and abandoning his ineffective slider, I'm actually kind of excited that he's about to reach his full potential real soon, especially with the upgrade defensively that the Tigers have undergone in the infield. Don't be surprised to see about 15-18 wins annually out of Porcello in the immediate future.
I'm now hearing that the ?Tigers are getting Ian Krol, rather than Storen, along with Lombardozzi and Ray. Not at all impressed with the return, but we won't know if I'm right for a couple of years.
count me as very disappointed.
count me as very disappointed.
he has more than earned my trust. His track record with regards to trades have been stellar. Remember when fans were upset when they traded away Granderson? What about Cameron Maybin/Andrew Miller? What about getting Fister in return? Dombrowski knows what he's doing.
It appears that Robbie Ray and Steve Lombardozzi are the two main players that Dombrowski wanted. Lombardozzi fills Infante's spot. Ray could fill in the bullpen with his power arm as a lefty.
Kinsler already fills Infante's role though. If anything Lombardozzi replaces Santiago, which itself is just a meh acquisition.
Better defender and can actually hit. When I said Infante's role, I mean as a utility IF.
Umm...Lombardozzi is not much of a hitter. A .639 career OPS is not exactly George Brett here:
He's basically Danny Worth, maybe a little bit more.
as a .290-.300 hitter in the MLB. It's his 2nd year in the MLB. He hit over .300 in the minor league. Look at his minor league numbers, it's better than you think. Project as a plus defender with a good bat.
I suspect his average will go up 20-30 points with regular at bats. He'll be a solid everyday guy at some point in his career. He won't make all star teams, but like Kovacs and all white receivers, he's a gritty, blue collar kind of player. Not showing off but not falling behind.
will be the #5 starter in the starting rotation and Porcello replace Fister at #4.
I always like the acquisition of some youth. Two of them have proven themselves to be pretty decent players who have high ceilings.
the Tigers went into the off-season in the market for the following: bullpen help (including a closer), a 2nd baseman, a backup catcher, and a speedy, power-hitting left fielder. We got our 2nd baseman, Kinsler, in the Fielder trade, which also seems to have opened the door for Castellanos to be either given a shot at 3rd base or that LF spot---or will DD still try to trade for a LF with more speed and experience?
That leaves, if nothing else, the bullpen and backup catcher issues yet to be resolved. Don't be surprised if one or two of those Nats acquired for Fister are somehow part of a package to address those other needs, Dombrowski seems to often be a chess move or two ahead when it comes to setting up his next deal.
Also need another bat, preferably in LF. We did take about 190 RBI out of the order in Fielder and Peralta, and only made up about 60.
Yes. This is crucial to recognize. I liked the Fielder move, and V-Mar can step into that role for another year or two and serve to protect Miguel. They do need find some more RBIs somewhere, though.
The move seems to make it clear, that they will sign Scherzer. If that's the case, then we're looking at three ultra-high dollar players who the Tigers will want to keep long-term (Verlander, Scherzer, MIguel). Part of the salary gained from Fister may well go to Cabrera's new contract, which the Tigers and Migues were supposedly working on this summer.
Not sure I like this deal. Why are the Tigers so hell bent on having Smyly in the rotation? It takes a quality left hander out the bullpen. Our bullpen was weak enough to begin with.
Because a good pitcher pitching six or seven innings is more valuable than a good pitcher pitching one or two innings. If it's that important to have a lefty in the pen, it's probably also important to have one in the rotation.
Oh, and P.S.: Ian Krol is a lefty. So it puts a quality lefty back in the bullpen anyway.
is he a quality lefty though? i have serious doubts. the tigers traded a solid starter for 2 questionable lefty relievers and a utility guy. not good, imo. i was hopeful that they would package porcello for a good lefty bat then sign a serviceable lefty for the bullpen.
Why are you doubtful of Krol? Scouting reports? Stats?
why is he doubting Robbie Ray? He's a lefty who can go up to 96 and has the stuff to be a really good set up man.
According to reports ray avg 93 mph on his fastball but can hit mid 90s. Fister is a proven commodity. All the guys the tigers got in return are not; appear to be role players.
Here's the thing about Robbie Ray: He can be traded for anything. While a bird in the hand is much better, Dombrowski's modus operandi is to stockpile pitching prospects and trade them for what he needs. He does this all the time. Bet you Ray gets traded for something useful before he pitches 10 games with the Tigers.
Phil Coke is a "serviceable" lefty, which is to say, he doesn't implode sometimes. I'll bet you can't find one that matches Krol's 3.95 ERA and comes as cheaply. Krol tailed off some in September but that's to be expected in one's first major-league season. He's 22. I don't know what else you'd want, because "serviceable" is a euphemism for a journeyman who sometimes has a good season and sometimes doesn't. Show me a relief pitcher who isn't a risk to fall apart and I'll show you a future starter or Mariano Rivera. Krol's as good as any and better than quite a few.
you can find lefties like him on the free agent list. i disagree trading a proven #3 starter for the bit parts they got back.
No, you can't. Every reliever on the FA list is 27 or older. Last year's cheapest reliever went for $1.5 million. That was lefty Oliver Perez, with a career ERA of over 4.50 and a WHIP close to 1.50. Krol goes for roughly league minimum and he is younger than the whole free-agent market and better than most.
Go to the free agent list and tell me which lefty you'd rather have.
c'mon man... boooo. I hate when we trade away our good pitching.
We can't hoard it forever, man. And it's much easier to trade that pitching for other pieces we need, instead of doing it the other way around.
I've always liked Fister so I'm torn, but he has a ceiling and I think we've seen it. If they think Smyly or Porcello can step in and this frees up space for Sherzer, it makes sense. Plus, maybe they'll get a couple of nice pieces back. Dombrowski has been making the right calls recently, so I'll give him my vote.
As fan of both the Tigers and Nats, I think this is an excellent deal for both sides. The Tigers are getting excellent prospects. Lombardozzi has been a very reliable utility man for the Nats. He's an excellent infielder, solid outfielder, and a solid hitter (not much power though). He's a fan favorite and will be missed in Washington. He was one of my favorites as well and the player I rooted for the most. My family is already bummed he's leaving.
Krol was excellent after his call up last year but faded toward the end of the season. He should be a solid LR.
Ray is suppose to be a very promising prospect. There's been a lot of buzz about him over the last year. I suspect he'll be the big win of the haul for Detroit.
I hope this helps the bullpen.
just said "and the Tigers aren't done, they still hope to add a third baseman so Cabrera can move to first base". Reading between the lines, I take that as the Tigers' brass isn't sold on Castellanos at third base. Interesting...
he would be a 3B because of defensive liability. Much easier to hide it at corner OF as opposed to 3B. There is a reason why they moved him to LF
I love this trade. I'm not even sure what the Tigers were thinking, honestly. Fister is a solid top 25 pitcher, if not better, and his move to the NL, plus a team with great fielding, will do wonders. Lombardozzi is a mediocre bench hitter, at best. The prospects are decent, not great, but the Nats are in win-now mode.
Here's some solid analysis of the trade: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/nationals-steal-doug-fister-from-tigers/
I'm not quite sure what I think about this trade at this point. Seems to me it did two things:
In the near term...
- Further reduced payroll, making it easier to extend Scherzer and/or Cabrera. I'd be fine with that happening.
- Upgraded our utility man position. Basically, Lombardozzi is a better version of Ramon Santiago.
- Potentially bolstered the 'pen with Krol - might have to wait and see.
In the long term...
- Krol and Lombardozzi also fall under this - they're both young and likely haven't reached their peaks yet, so we could see some good baseball from them yet. If they pan out, we'll have a solid lefty arm in the 'pen, and a legit utility man (or even an everyday 2b, should DD trade Kinsler or something).
- Robbie Ray. This guy looks intriguing. Biggest potential downside with him is the walks at this point - thought that's fairly common with young guys, and he's trending in the right direction right now. If he can continue to reduce the walks and keep his K rate, he could be good.
The more I think about this trade, the more I hate it.
You give up a proven, cheap, #3 starter for basically a bunch of unproven stuff? .This is the OPPOSITE of all the moves DD has made to make the Tigers so good.
Fister was good and not crazy expensive. The odds of the players DD got back contributing at the level that Fister contributed is almost zero. And heaven help the Tigers if any of their rotation gets hurt.
I think this was a really dumb move, unless there was some reason the TIgers believe Ray or Krol is going to be an All-Star. I think Lombardozzi is pretty much junk.
A: Heaven help any team if any one of their starters goes down. That cannot be part of your argument.
B: You can't look at the move in isolation when it is so obvious that there are subsequent moves to come.
C: "A bunch of unproven stuff" is a little too negative. Lombardozzi is an excellent fielder who hit .260 in his rookie year without getting everyday ABs. He's like a Don Kelly that can actually hit. He's only 25. He will provide immediate value and could be a big time player down the road. Calling him "pretty much junk" is really extreme. Have you seen him play? Have you done any research?
D: Fister's ERA has risen sharply in each of the last three years. His K's are up significantly, I'll give you. However, the biggest thing is his whip was higher than Rick Porcello's on the year: 1.31 to 1.28.
Fister's BAA this year was also .332, over 30 points above his career average, which explains his increased WHIP. Then again, that could easily be attributed to the Tigers pretty terrible infield defense, and therefore wasn't going to change which is maybe why they wanted to trade him. As a groundball pitcher, he has much more value to a team like the Nats that have a pretty great defensive infield (although Zimmerman has been questionable lately). Porcello is a groundball pitcher too though, so I'm not sure that's any better for the Tigers (dumping Prince will help if they can bring in a good 3B and slide Miggy back to first).
And as a Nats fan, I can tell you that Lombardozzi is pretty much garbage. I watch him play a lot, and I view getting rid of him as a good bonus to this trade. FYI, he hit 270 his rookie year, then 260 last year. He has NO power, and his OBP regressed last year (to 278!). He doesn't work counts, which makes him kind of worthless as a pinch hitter. If the Tigers are planning on starting him, maybe he'll improve in an everyday role, but as a utility guy he is pretty bad. And he was supposed to have speed, but that hasn't materialized in the majors either. He could always turn it around though.
As I mentioned earlier, as a Nats fan I'm elated with this trade - so much so that I can't believe it's real. When I saw the headline, I assumed the Nats gave up someone like Rendon or Storen to land Fister. The only way this makes sense to me is if the Tigers know something about Fister that the Nats don't, and he's about to regress badly - crossing my fingers this isn't the case.
Yes I did research. Lobardozzi is, IMO, garbage. In 2 seasons of decent MLB AB's he's put up pathetic numbers. His OBP is crap. I think I have more chance of hitting a home run sitting here at my keyboard that he does.
I will give you that his minor league numbers indicate a decent singles hitter, but they also indicate a guy who doesn't walk too much, so his OBP is always likely going to suck, and unfortunately he seems to be unable to hit MLB pitching. That is a pretty terrible combo.
Sure, he might suddently "get" it. So might a bunch of players. But he's 25--so he's not exactly super young in terms of prospects.
Who knows about the young pitchers. They are more wildcards.
The only way this deal makes any sense to me is if we are moving the young arms on for an established player of some sort.
Lombardozzi is not garbage, but he's not someone you need to trade for. Justin Turner was just nontendered and is probably a better fielder, worse hitter than Lombardozzi, but slightly more versatile. Krol profiles best as a LOOGY and still has control issues. If money weren't an issue, there are a dozen guys out there who profile better -- indeed, one of those guys will likely sign with the Nats before February rolls around. Lack of a reliable lefty was one of Washington's weaknesses last year and while Krol helped, no one viewed him as an answer. I've done more reading on Ray since last night, and am somewhat more positive about him. He was low ranked coming into the 2013 season, but his stock is on the rise. Baseballamerica.com ranked him fifth in Washington's minor league organization; www.baseballhq.com was prepared to release its Washington organization ranking with him as number six before last night's trade. That said, Ray was at best Washington's third best pitching prospect behind Lucas Giolito and AJ Cole and was also considered behind guys like Tanner Roark, Taylor Jordan and Nathan Karns all of whom got starts for Washington last season. I also understand the Tigers coveted Jordan but the Nats refused to include him in the deal.
As for Fister, his sabremetric numbers are off the chart. They are arguably among the ten best in baseball over the last three years. While someone said that he's gotten worse over the past couple of years, the stats belie that sentiment. Yes, his surface numbers are slightly in decline, but that's been due to bad luck. His percentage of balls in play that end in hits was elevated the last two years over typical levels. Looking at his supporting skills, they have been extremely stable, and he would have been in better shape in 2014 with the Tigers' improved infield defense -- Fister is one of the best ground ball pitchers around.
the worse I feel. I think this will probably go down as one of the worst if not the worst Tiger trade of my lifetime. It's just utterly non-sensical. It made the Tigers instantly worse for absolutely no reason.
Trade is a "Bonanza" for Nationals. "Outright robbery"
Fangraphs also calls Fister a top-20 pitcher in the league, which is quite the exaggeration. The Tigers alone have three that are better, and it's not that hard to come up with 17 more.