OT: Tigers Open Thread
Taking on the Indians in game 3. Verlander vs. Masterson.
For all of you trolling Leyland-haters, feel free to stay out of this thread. Nobody cares about what you have to say. Now, if you want to have reasoned discourse, then feel free to add your thoughts. Just stay away from name-calling, all caps, and lots of exclamation points.
Go Tigers!
Ouch. That DP hurt.
I feel a crooked number for the Tigers this half inning.
Alright, now would be a good time for a rally. Got the leadoff man aboard, top of the order now. Please don't ground into a double play...
Why would Berry go up there and do anything other than bunt? Let's go Dirks!!
Why would Dirks be asked to bunt? Even if successful, they'd just walk Cabby.
And then Prince would have guys on base, followed by Young. Both of whom are hitting over .300 with RISP.
Arggg! Are you f-ing kidding me. Get the bunt down!
But even in the majors, managers have a huge affect on players tweaking their game. There is a reason Granderson blew up when he left for NY. Their coaches had him slightly change his swing and all of a sudden, he cut his strike outs etc.
The fact that our pitching coach is a man who was fired as our bullpen coach 3 times is awful. The fact that max and rick look like worst pitchers today then when they got here is just unacceptable long term coaching. It is the managers job to help players improve over long periods of time.
Just on the telecast today, Mario and Rod quoted Leyland saying something to the effect that OBP doesn't matter as much as RBIs. While yes, this has been a maddening issue the last week. The reason Leyland is not a good manager is that he ignores all modern baseball knowledge. OBP>RBIs.
Leyland's record is .500 on the spot. Yes, he has the most wins of any active manager, he also has the same number of losses. Furthermore, over the last 6 seasons, we have had either the best or very close to the best team in a weak divsion on paper. He should not be rewarded for making the playoffs twice in that span. 2 out of 6 is not good.
In the end, Leyland is not the only problem. However, he is not a good manager and the team needs a spark. At this point, there really is no reason not to try a change.
You've said all of this before (or at least, if it wasn't you, someone else said the exact same things). How are Scherzer and Porcello worse now than they were when they started with the Tigers? I'd like to see some numbers to back that up.
And you can't be serious about Granderson. His last three years with the Tigers, his K rate was under 20%. He's in his third year with the Yankees right now, know what his K rates have been? 22% (2010), 24.5% (2011), and he's striking out 26% so far this season. You wanna know why it feels like he's doing better in NY? You think his new coaches told him something magical to fix his game? You're right. Here's what they told him: "swing up, kid. You get the ball in the air, it's probably going to be a home run."
Do some research before making ridiculous claims.
lol no kidding. I don't think anybody was surprised when Granderson's power numbers jumped after he became a Yankee. It's bound to happen for any lefthanded bat.
So it wasn't me saying it before, though just because others have said it does not mean it is not true. It is not like I am a huge Leyland basher or writing in all caps. I find it funny that what I actually said makes Leyland a bad manager (the third and fourth paragraph) has not been responded to at all. In the end, coaches are hired to win. Whether it is their fault or not, they are fired if they do not do so.
I have not seen anyone actually say Leyland is a good manager and justify it with stats. Seriously, do you guys actually think firing him would make the team worse? I am not saying it would cure this team, just that it is getting to the point where it is worth a try.
I didn't respond to that because that topic was heavily discussed in a previous thread, and I thought you were involved in that. I negged you for making unfounded claims. I'm not going to go into everything that was brought up in the previous thread, but here's the link to it (go about halfway down the page; also, the point about Porcello regressing was brought up and shot down, as well). Basically, looking at a manager's win % doesn't tell you much. Connie Mack, the winningest manager of all time, had a losing record for his career. Plus, Leyland was the head coach for some pretty awful teams; teams that no manager could have won with. Sometimes that's just the hand you're dealt.
Do you think firing Leyland would make the team play worse?
If no, why not try it. The team needs a lift, it is time to try something different.
Do you think firing Leyland would make the team play worse?
No, I don't. But I also don't think that's a good reason to fire him. What good would it do? That's what I care about. I want this team to win, and if you can show that there is a direct correlation between firing a manager mid-season and teams improving as a result, then I'll be all for it. I just don't see what good that would do. If firing Leyland meant Avila, Peralta, and Boesch would all stop sucking at the plate, I'd be all for that. If it would also cause our pitchers (outside of Verlander and Fister) to pitch more consistently, then let's do it. I'm just not convinced that firing Leyland is going to accomplish any of those things.
Firing Leyland won't cause guys to all of a sudden throw more strikes, stop chasing pitches out of the strike zone, or field their position better. Those are our problems.
"Why not try it?" is a terrible reason to make big-scale changes. We're not talking about tweaking the lineup or starting someone over someone else. You don't fire the manager just for the sake of doing something different. You only do it if you feel that Leyland is unable to get the most out of his players and you have a better alternative to him going forward. It's a freaking long season. We were 7.5 games out of first place when Cleveland swept us when the teams first met last season. Our BP is not fully healthy and we are missing Jackson right now. Not to mention that many in our lineup are well below their career averages at the moment. Starting pitching is doing pretty well despite Porcello/Scherzer inconsistency, but they were that way last year/whole careers. I don't know how much of that you can/can't pin on Leyland, but canning him just for the sake of doing something different is pretty illogical and a recipe for disaster. Especially when the division is weak and it might only take 85 wins to get the title.
Also, to say that OBP > RBI is to try to argue that water is more important to people than food. They're both necessary. Yes, it's obviously very important for people to be on base, but if nobody can drive them in once they are on base, what's the point? And the Tigers aren't having much of a problem with OBP so far. Looking at our lineup today, Boesch is the only one with an OBP under .300 for the season. So yes, I would say RBIs are more important than OBP for the Tigers right now.
I agree Batting Average with Runners in Scoring Postion is huge. RBIs are an outdated stat that means very little.
I agree that RBI mean very little when looking at individual players because RBI is pretty random in that way. But when looking at the full team, I'd take RBI over OBP anyday. Although in the context of a team, RBI is essentially runs scored.
BARISP is not a new stat. And I'm not denying it. Only pointing out the absurdity of trying to say OBP is more important than RBI (or BARISP if you want to use that). Whether you want to say that we need more hits when guys are in scoring position, or you want to say that we need to drive home baserunners, the point is the same.
The Indians announcers are aweful! I can't believe how anemic our hitting is right now. It's got to get better, it's got to get better, it's got to get better!
Out of curiousity what did they say about the balk?
Radio and TV guys are horrendous. Tom Hamilton acts like every routine fly ball is Willie Mays making a basket catch in CF in the WS......
But I will admit to being a total Cleveland hater. My mom's side of the family is from there. When I was a kid, baseball was my favorite sport. I grew up when the Indians were really good and the Tigers were really bad. So naturally, I heard about it all the time. So I have special place in my heart for Cleveland's teams and fans.
I grew up when the Indians were really good and the Tigers were really bad.
I love this statement, b/c one part requires that you be more specific (I grew up when the tigers were really bad) and yet the other part implies that you grew up completely in 1997.
Born in 89. And I don't know that it says I grew up completely in 97. Indians won 5 division titles in the 90s and might have won another if not for the strike shortened season. Went to two WS and an ALCS as well. Meanwhile, the Tigers had only 2 winning seasons in the 90s, both before I could understand what was going on.
Verlander mad.
Verlander just hit 102 on the radar gun with his 115th pitch. Then followed it up with an 83 MPH pitch. Unreal.
But seriously, fire Leyland. I want Francona. This is completely ridiculous now. Team needs something.
I'm so tired of hearing how this team is gonna start hitting. Why should we believe it they've shown no indication that they will ever start hitting. They have been pathetic with runners on base can't make sacrifice bunts, can't get runners home from third with no outs or one out can't manufacture runs. I have no faith in this team, I hope I'm wrong but this team seems to have ben all hype and no substance !!!!
They're 4 games under .500 and 6 games out of first place in a weak division. Relax. There are still 118 games to be played.
Leyland talk aside, this season has just been disapointing thusfar. I was looking forward to a really special summer of Tigers crushing the ball. It's been the opposite of fun to watch, it's downright hard to watch.