The Steelers turned their franchise around through the draft and no pick was more important than Mean Joe Greene. Hopefully for Lions fans Suh will have a similiar effect.
to play football, not to play trumpet
The Steelers turned their franchise around through the draft and no pick was more important than Mean Joe Greene. Hopefully for Lions fans Suh will have a similiar effect.
respect to the steelers, but 10-19 for 133 and 2 picks is not indicative of a qb who won a game but a great team effort. big ben (or big rape by some!) is a good qb, but great/difference maker, I have trouble with that.
You didn't watch the game then. He made two runs to keep drives going and made two throws on the run that iced the game. Funny nick name you gave him too.
as long as Big Ben is their QB I wont be rooting for them.
You are probably an Eagle fan.
Or he finds what Ben did deserving more punishment than <1/2 a season. Speaking of the Eagles, their QB committed a crime on animals and served two years in prison - and by all accounts has completely changed because of that experience. Roethlisberger has been accused of multiple crimes against women and yet to serve a day.
I agree that the Steelers are a classy franchise, but I just can't bring myself to want success for their QB. And that goes along with not wanting success for that team.
That is the difference between accused and convicted. I think he made some pretty poor choices and was not very well liked by business owners in Pittsburgh. Since then he has been humbled and seems to be getting his shit together. His father even made the comment it was nice having his son back again. I understand why you wouldn't root for him but I believe Ben is a man on the path to redemption.
It's always good to see somebody learn to act right. But (even as a dog lover) I have a much easier time rooting for Vick than him - even though Vick is the ex-con.
I won't root for either. In fact, I root against them.
winning football games.
We can always look up to college athletics as a bastion of integrity and transparency, unlike the rotten, money-grubbing pros.
Is that what they're called? The Philadelphia Eagle?
God forbid you ever make a mistake
He raped 2 woman and is a scumbag
And wasn't found guilty in either case. To me, but apparently not to most, that has to count for something
In the second case, he wasn't found guilty mainly because the victim didn't want to be a target of the national media. The DA held a press conference where he pretty much called Roethlisberger a scumbag but said he wouldn't be able to convict him so he had to let him walk.
This. There are lots of stories about the shit he pulled in college too.
Don't get me wrong. From the rape accusations to the motorcycle incident to the college fiascos, he hasn't created a very good image for himself, and I can understand why people wouldn't want to root for him. But, he hasn't been found guilty, let alone charged with anything. I have a little more faith in our judicial system than this
Exactly. This is the problem I have with how a lot of people treat this situation: he's done enough dirtbag things to legitimately dislike him for the things that he's actually done without resorting to just making things up and distorting the truth.
He hasn't been charged, but I still don't have to like him. I also feel like a lot of people are cutting him slack because they think since he wasn't charged, he didn't do anything wrong. This isn't the Duke Lacrosse case.
Yes, may initial comment was purely emotional. I have no problem with someone not rooting with Ben on the ground sof the image he's created. I do have a problem with people that have no knowledge outside of the what they hear from the media calling him a rapist
Roomates brother's partied with him. Heard he is a super douche and full of himself.
The same could be said about the majority of elite athletes, and not just in modern times.
You might want to revisit what was actually said in that press conference...
We are not condoning Mr. Roethlisberger’s actions that night, but we do not prosecute morals, we prosecute crimes
Q: You say something did happen, but you just can’t prove it. Would that be accurate?
A: I can’t prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, a crime. If I did, I would do so, and I’m admitting to you I can’t. Something may have happened, but that’s not a conviction.
Q: Did her wish not to prosecute have any bearing on your decision here today?
A: Yes it made it easier
Right. Obviously that's true. I was taking issue with the portion of your comment where you said that "he wasn't found guilty mainly because the victim didn't want to be a target of the national media." That's just false. He wasn't found guilty mainly because there was no probable cause to even arrest him, let alone prosecute him or convict him. Her desire not to press charges was a secondary consideration.
You're right - I think I just remembered what I wanted to remember, and was kind of ticked off by the whole story when it happened last summer.
I'm glad to know I'll be forgiven of sexual assault. Well at least the kind of assault that is not proven, twice...
... in the value of patience. 42 years. 3 coaches. They don't panic when they hit a down cycle, they just stick with the program, have a philosophy on offense and defense, and go find the guys who fit the philosophy. That is how football programs, pro or college, should be run.
Just like our program used to have.
Pittsburgh = Ann Arbor East.
Pittsburgh is a class act that puts the team above any individual. They may be the only organization that would consider shopping their under-30 year old 2-about-to-be-3 time Super Bowl winning quarterback because of headlines in the news. Gotta respect em.
Pittsburgh = Ann Arbor East.
Oh my god no.
They're an ideal franchise. Except for their talented but scummy QB.
I'm still rooting for the Packers! Go Pack Go!
Classy franchise however i don't say the same about their fans
Uh, might I point out that Rothlesberger hasn't even been charged, what alone convicted of any crime? And it's not like anyone tried to cover it up, either. If that DA down in GA had even a shred of physical evidence, he would have brought the circus to town. All I'm seeing with this and "copycat complaints" are flimsy accusations by people with a lot to gain financially and not a shred of proof to back anything up.
Until the legal system takes care of him, or until it becomes obvious that Rothlesberger is recieving special treatment due to his celebrity status, I'll judge him for what he does on the field.
I thought the cops who arrested him were fired for giving him special treatment
Slight problem... he was never arrested.
He wasn't even taken into custody? I was pretty confident that heads rolled because of the way the police coddled him. If not I stand corrected.
MILLEDGEVILLE, Ga. -- A prosecutor said Friday he completed investigating allegations that Pittsburgh Steelers quarterback Ben Roethlisberger sexually assaulted a college student.
Roethlisberger's attorney, Edward T.M. Garland, said his client hasn't been arrested or indicted.
But he didn't have the burden of proof. The NFL, which doesn't have to adhere to the same standards suspended him. And there wasn't a big appeal by Ben decrying it as an injustice (as an innocent man would). He didn't put up a big defense because he didn't want people looking into either case more closely. Not the actions of a man wrongly accused (twice).
He didn't put up a big defense because his actions, though not criminal, were still in poor taste. It was in his best interest to take his lumps and step away from the spot light. Look I am not going to change your perception of him but Ben was acting like a drunken idiot for some time. He is not a rapist. If you took time to look at these cases this we would agree on.
The fact that many of you feel this way is also his own doing but he really has turned things around. He even recently got engaged. So hopefully my team's QB will be staying out of bars and off motorcycles in the future.
But he didn't have the burden of proof.
Uhh.... what? How did the DA not have the burden of proof? I'm guessing that you meant to say that he couldn't satisfy the burden of proof?
And there wasn't a big appeal by Ben decrying it as an injustice (as an innocent man would). He didn't put up a big defense because he didn't want people looking into either case more closely.
Please, just stop. He didn't appeal it because it wasn't going to change and appealing it was only going to draw more attention to the suspension aspect, which would have driven the NFL to take the hard line of enforcing the full length of the suspension, instead of the deal worked out behind the scenes to keep it at four games. Given the conduct code violation that he was suspended for (seriously, look it up, it didn't have anything to do with the NFL thinking anything happened contrary to what the police determined), his suspension wasn't going to be rescinded or reduced, so what sense would it have made to do anything other than make the suspension as short as possible?
And if he was innocent of any wrong doing, he would have appealed, because that's what innocent people do. Not everyone lives by the backroom deal standards that lawyers do to get off the guilty more lightly. If he hadn't done anything wrong, more spotlight would highlight his innocence, not dirty details. And while the NFL Player's union isn't the strongest, I'd say they have enough pull to keep a guy who did nothing wrong from being suspended for a quarter of the season.
You act like I said somewhere he was suspended for raping someone. There are a lot of levels of misconduct below that...obviously one that was crossed. That he's a rapist is almost assuredly overstating it. That he's a douchebag probably isn't.
If he hadn't done anything wrong, more spotlight would highlight his innocence, not dirty details.
Actually, this thread is almost perfect proof to use to counter your point. Just read the unknowledgeable stuff that has been posted in this thread as fact. There was literally nothing that was going to be done that could make him look "more innocent", primarly because this is 100% true:
That he's a rapist is almost assuredly overstating it. That he's a douchebag probably isn't.
Could he have been more public, and maybe come off bad, but clarify his innocence, to help stem off some of the misconceptions shown here? I think so. He might be proven without a doubt to be a douchebag, rather than assumed, but he also could have the idea in people's minds that yes, I may have acted like a drunken juggalo, but hey, I'm not someone who is a criminal. But you may be right, this might be a path of less resistance that when the wins inevitably came, he could recover from more easily. I obviously don't care if people think I'm a dick. I would care if they thought I was a criminal. But then I'm not a mini-corporation to be managed either.
Haha. Mini-corporation. I like that one.
Yeah, from everything I've read/heard, his attitude (and the attitude of the Steelers) was to get the actual story behind him as much as possible, and fighting it would have just dragged it out (and publicly).
Actually, I've had a bird's eye view of the situation. Prof. John Burkoff of Pitt Law, who is a luminary in the field of Criminal Law, especially in PA (and who has no opinion on the Steelers), told me that the only reason Big Ben wasn't exonerated`(note, I don't say vindicated) earlier than he was was because the officials didn't want to seem like he was being treated preferentially. It is probable he treated this woman shabbily, but the matter never went into the realm of feasible charges. There was no evidence beyond the circumstantial to sustain any allegation. That's really the final word on the criminal side of the matter. The question of his morals, before and after his chastisment, are a matter of speculative opinion.
Thank you for sharing this. I've heard the same thing. This situation is actually a great example of how lawyers will almost certainly view this situation differently from laypersons. Your distinction is 100% right on the money (i.e. distinguishing between moral culpability legal culpability).
Get ready to be crucified
You weren't slammed for defending him, you were slammed for giving the Lantau defense given for everyone who does something wrong - "hope you are without sin". I'll take a wold guess and say the vast majority of posters here haven't been accused of sexual assault multiple times. And for sure the sense that if someone tried to "scam" you once, not to put yourself in that position again.
Yeah I screwed up on that one. It was purely an emotional response. I have no issue with someone not rooting for Ben. I do take issue with calling him a rapist
Anyway, it's ok to defend Ben from an innocent until proven guilty aspect, as others are, and creating disagreement, but not getting slammed for it. The "Pryor Defense" rarely works. But at least you're man enoughto see it.
I was about to go check Google for the definition of a Lantau defense.
But yea, I agree with what you've been posting above. Just because a prosecutor can't satisfy the burden of proof requirements in a courtroom doesn't mean that we as individuals need to hold the same standard when it comes to liking someone or condoning their (repeated) behavior.
The OP wrote: "Lions fans can take note that positivity from the ground up goes quite a long way."
With all respect to the OP, Lions fans should remember that the team is still owned by the Ford family. WCF and Billy are micromanagers of the worst sort and are held in high contempt by probably all competent GM and coach candidates in the NFL. Unless they've turned over a new leaf, they'll have only second-rate buffoons in those positions. Either that, or they'll effectively turn decent people into second-rate buffoons.
Who drafted receivers three consecutive years? Most people would say Millen but they'd be wrong. It was the Fords working through puppet Millen.
@#$% the Fords.
Crotchety old folks.
Their professional successes are making people forget they are shitty individuals. And for the record, a lot of quarterbacks could go to three Super Bowls with that team. I love QBs (was one) but the Steelers are a prime example of the NFL being a QB league. I think Ben posted a 35 passer rating and people are talking about how he has taken his team to 3 Super Bowls by 28...laughable
He isn't flashy but when the game is on the line he makes plays. It doesn't hurt having the defense we have but the Steelers have had that for some time now. Ben makes 3 plays a game that no other QB in the league could make and in two weeks he may have 3 rings. Not too shabby.
He'd be lucky to break the top 5 of QBs in the League right now. You act like the number 1 defense is just a nice compliment to his wonder.
He'd be lucky to break the top 5 of QBs in the League right now.
I've read some funny stuff, but this, right here? This is funny!
But seriously, to answer the first point you were addressing... he's (more or less) right. You're free to think he's over-rated, but he's one of the very few players in the game that is able to make some of the plays that he makes. And very often those plays are the difference in the game, especially in big games.
Brady, Manning, Brees, Rodgers. Anyone taking BR over one of those guys right now is still wearing their black and gold jerseys. And I don't think there's any play he could make that they couldn't. And only one of them hasa defense anywhere near what Ben has had. That makes him top 5 at best. If you want to go through all the rest of the QBs and see if people couldn't make arguments of their superiority, be my guest. But take off the inflatable Steelers helmet first.
It all depends on what kind of O-line you put in front of him. Ben has never had an offensive line that could match up with the ones Manning and Brady are accustomed to having. If you patch together what the Steelers have right now and put Manning or Brady back there...Well, you saw what the Jets D did to them the last two weeks with their O-lines
But without going over a decade of offensive lines throughout the NFL, I'm not sure his lines have been really inferior to Brady's. Lord knows they've had better run games than the Pats. With Manning I'll give you that. They've made it a priority to protect their investment there. One of many reasons why he never misses a game.
But without going over a decade of offensive lines throughout the NFL, I'm not sure his lines have been really inferior to Brady's.
They have. The funny thing is that their worst offensive lines (and the ones most decimanted by injury) have been in the years they have gone to the Super Bowl. I mean, seriously, their starting center in the Super Bowl is going to Doug Legursky. Undrafted. From Marshall. They were done to exactly zero available extra offensive linemen at the end of the Baltimore game. This is where his unique skill set is accentuated, in my opinion (and in the opinion of a lot of others). When the line is weak, he is flushed from the pocket more frequently, and that's when he does a lot more damage. He really isn't a particularly good pocket quarterback, but once you get him out of the pocket, he's incredibly good.
We're not talking about just this year, where even though the Pats line was missing starters (one right before the playoffs) the Steelers were killed far worse. But also the one's that were blocking for Bettis et al. and every year the Pats (and other teams) went to the Super Bowl. Frankly, the Steelers only gave the second best injury complaint in THIS Super Bowl. Now GB has had injury problems this year. At least Pitt got to keep their Running Back for more than one game this season.
We're not talking about just this year, where even though the Pats line was missing starters (one right before the playoffs) the Steelers were killed far worse. But also the one's that were blocking for Bettis et al. and every year the Pats (and other teams) went to the Super Bowl.
Yes, I know we are. This is one that I can guarantee that you are wrong about. Every time the Steelers have gone to the Super Bowl their offensive line has been considered a team weakness. Seriously, I don't know why you're even arguing this point. You're not a Steelers fan, so I wouldn't expect you to really know what you're talking about on this (i.e. no one would expect you to know this; you don't follow the team that closely). The offensive line on the Super Bowl team that was blocking for Bettis, for example, was, uh... not so good. They had two outstanding players in Faneca and Hartings (both had Pro Bowl seasons), but the rest was a mash unit all season long, but especially in the playoffs. I promise that I'm not trying to come across as condescending in this post (or any of the others), but it's obvious that you're arguing this from the standpoint of "Pittsburgh had a good running game in 2005-2006, so they had to have had a good offensive line that was completely healthy", which just isn't true.
I am sure thats a personnel situation that Peyton Manning could overcome
I've been saying this too - so right about espn highlights missing this. It is nice that they now have a center to carry on that great tradition that had been missing since Hartings retired. I hope Pouncey can play in 2 weeks. I haven't heard anything about his injury.
Ben has never had an offensive line that could match up with the ones Manning and Brady are accustomed to having.
No kidding. People that don't follow the Steelers beyond ESPN highlights would never actually know this, though. Seriously, just look at the offensive line that started this game tonight.
i.e. a top RB and a deep thread, that Brady doesn't have. That's why the Jets could just key on Brady and the intermediate routes which was the Pats bread and butter all year. If you gave Brady those two guys, NE is in the super bowl. And Ben had the worst game of a super bowl winning QB, even Dilfer had a better day than him.
But he's still a top-5 QB, probably fifth, behind Rodgers and ahead of Rivers.
Brady, Manning, Brees, Rodgers. Anyone taking BR over one of those guys right now is still wearing their black and gold jerseys.
I suppose what type of game you're talking about. If you're talking about a regular season game, I would agree. If you're talking about a playoff game, it'd be Brady then Roethlisberger, and most every so called "expert" I've ever heard comment on it over the last couple of years orders it exactly the same way. We can agree to disagree, I guess.
And I don't think there's any play he could make that they couldn't.
The only QBs that can consistently escape pressure like Roethlisberger are Rodgers and Vick. Roethlisberger's ability to finish those runs pretty easily puts him above both of them. Granted, Rodgers has shown a propensity to try to finish runs the way that Roethlisberger does, but has taken a beating doing it.
But take off the inflatable Steelers helmet first.
Just because someone disagrees with you and happens to be a fan of the team the player plays for doesn't mean that they are biased.
Be prepared to be treated like a cornbread eater.
If that's your standard of "doing something other QB's can't do makes him elite" you'd have to downgrade him for all the plays the other QBs could make/do better than Ben. Probably mostly to do with throwing, accuracy, and reading defenses...things you want QBs to do primary. And thus more valuable.
Be prepared to be treated like a cornbread eater.
Obviously. It was being sarcastic. It didn't translate.
As for the rest, obviously you have to take the whole package. That's more or less my point. You can't downgrade Roethlisberger on the basis of accuracy and reading defenses (if those are even real deficiencies - I've never seen those discussed anywhere regarding his game) without also downgrading the others based upon the things that Roethlisberger does very well. What makes Roethlisberger unquestionably elite is his ability to perform at a high level when he's pushed from the pocket. It's actually going to be a great comparison, because that is Rodgers' best attribute, as well. The bottom line is that he performs when it matters and when everything around him is falling apart, which is something that several of the other "elite" quarterbacks have not shown the ability to do.
This is your best comment of the night on the subject. It's tough to say how Roethlisberger would stack up vs Brady / Manning / Brees / Rodgers / Rivers given an equal set of WRs and offensive lineman. All we know about him is that he is extremely good at improvising and coming up with huge plays in tough situations, which we do know is something that some of the above guys haven't shown that they can do (ex, Manning is 9-10 all time in the playoffs). I can't wait for this matchup because, as you say, these quarterbacks actually have a lot in common
Thanks. I'm excited to see this match up, too. Not only do these two teams have two dynamic quarterbacks who can win the game a lot of different ways, but their defenses are both incredibly fun to watch. This really should be a great game.
"Fan" = "Unbiased"....because generally they mean the opposite. Though it's not impossible.
And I wouldn't call them "deficiencies" for him...as much as some of the others are exceptional in those categories, just like he is exceptional in the one's you point out. But to say that he's better at those things (no one else can make them) insinuates that he's some combo of Unitas/Montana/Elway/Marino, and that it puts him above all other current QBs, whereas they make plays he doesn't too, in a different way. I'd say Vick makes plays NO ONE else can make...but it doesn't elevate him to a superior position to any of the guys who have been mentioned.
Yeah, I know what you're saying, and the way you say it, I agree with you, although I think there is somewhat of an argument that Roethlisberger could give Vick a run for his money in terms of scrambling effectiveness (Vick is obviously faster and quicker, but Roethlisberger is stronger and a more accurate thrower on the run - bottom line is that they are both effective scramblers; just different). I think the better way to say it is that Roethlisberger blends his skill set in a way that is more effective, and conducive to the playoff style, than anyone else playing currently, aside from Brady (the Jets-Patriots game, aside).
Disagree. The D totally melted down in the second half and there was Ben, running away from two linebackers to make an across his body 1st down throw with the season on the line. Manning, Brees, Brady and Rivers don't make that play, let alone the 3 huge first down runs on 3rd and long. Ben isn't ever pretty, but he sure is effective playing behind a line with only one pre-season starter still standing.
but he sure is effective playing behind a line with only one pre-season starter still standing.
That is the most amazing part that almost no one is talking about.
I think there's a big difference between the reliability of Roethlisberger's accusers and the reliability of Kobe's accuser. I'd also argue that Shaq's antics in the NBA since he got traded are showing Kobe in a better light than he was painted with when Shaq first got traded.
I think Ben posted a 35 passer rating and people are talking about how he has taken his team to 3 Super Bowls by 28...laughable
I don't see how it's "laughable". This game is a pretty clear indication of the fact that stats aren't always indicative of actual performance. He made several plays in that game, that were absolutely key plays, that almost no other quarterback in the NFL could have made. Those plays hardly show up in the stat line and they certainly don't show up in his passer rating.
That the media will give him too much credit for taking his team to the Super Bowl when the sack-fumble-TD was the play of the game. It will just go by the wayside while Ben gets all the accolades.
Go Pack Go
And, to think, I didnt think I'd even have a thread around here tonight to post this in.
Just to go with the theme, sometimes it worth not changing your identity. Steelers could have gone all offense with their head coach pick. But, took Tomlin, a bad motherfuckingass in your face defenive guy. Meanwhile. LBJ was president last time a Stiller coach was dismissed for performance reasons. Let The Good Times Roll
There arent too many prestigious positions in the NFL. You know, the type where you're automatically awesome if you play position X for team A
Linebacker for the Pittsburgh Fucking Steelers is one of them
Lamar Woodley, your table is ready. This is every bit as impressive as being a QB for the Pats.
Look, the convo above is valid, for what its worth. A QB value to a specific team
But, let's not lose sight of the true facts as the Steelers win another AFC Championship
The reason the Steelers have been in 8 of the last 16 AFCCG is due to one word: DEFENSE
If that is what you are throwing rock with, you will never, ever fall out of contention
Exactly, jamiemac, no one will ever (validly) argue that the core of the Steelers, and why they are who they are, is the defense. I actually tend to think that shows just how valuable Roethlisberger is to the Steelers. Just think back on all of the pre-Roethlisberger teams that had awesome defenses during the Cowher era that had awesome defenses but were "oh so close, but not quite". It's fairly evident, at this point, stats aside, that Roethlisberger is a large part of the difference that pushed this team back over the hump. At the end of the day, my arguments in this thread aside, I guess I really shouldn't care if people disagree with that because he's won two Super Bowls, is playing for his third, and is second all time (behind only Bart Starr) in playoff winning percentage of quarterbacks who have played more than ten playoff games (he's 10-2).
I totally agree
Staying in contention year after year is because of the defensive program. Elevating that to championship level is having a QB that doesnt crap down his leg when the situation isnt perfect (cough, cough Rocky Top).
and if you think i made this post just to make fun of peyton, well then you know me too well.
Haha. I'm glad you knew what I meant, because upon further review I definitely could have worded it better!
I can't edit it, but the first sentence should have read:
Exactly, jamiemac, no one will ever (validly) argue that the core of the Steelers, and why they are who they are, is not the defense.
I think it was pretty clear that's what I meant, but I wanted to clarify.
All of the teams with top QB's mostly have at least pretty good offenses because of them. They can outscore people, when necessary. But when you absolutely need a stop, because the game isn't going your way offensively, Ben has had consistently better defenses than any of the rest of those QBs. And it was the same under Bradshaw. The reason Pitt has won more than anyone else is they've never gotten away from their mantra that defense wins championships, make sure they field one of the best year in and year out. That's to be admired. And credited as super smart. Though mildly ironic considering the website we're on and the blog's view on the best method to win games in college....
There are 32 teams in the NFL and I wouldnt take one of them in a horse trade show with defensive prospects on the table over the Pittsburgh Steelers
and since they lose a lot a guys through free agency since they're so good at picking them and winning with them early on, its a lot like watching a college team operating. Just an assembly line of great defensive players, all through the April draft, year after year.
Yep, great point. The Steelers are a seller every year in free agency, and it never matters. To the point where it's never even an issue that's talked about anymore. Hell, I don't even know when NFL free agency starts or ends, because it's never mattered as a Steelers fan. The best part is the drafting, though, as you said. Their draft classes are constantly criticized at draft time, but when it matters, the players are developed perfectly. Not only that, but they do better with signing and developing undrafted players than virtually any other team. As a fan it's something that I think we tend to lose sight of sometimes, but when you sit back and really look at it, it really is impressive.
I wonder who they will they will take in this year's fifth round
Probably not a wide receiver.
HEY-O!!!! I WENT THERE, SANTONIO
Haha. Did you Tomlin's post game press conference and his comment about Antonio Brown? His comment, coupled with Ryan's comments about the same play were absolutely priceless. And yeah, I can't wait to see who they end up taking with that pick they got for Holmes. It'll almost guaranteed be someone 99% of people, fans included, have never heard of, but five years from now will be a starter.
To the original point of this thread (i.e. historical context), consider this: the 2010 Steelers gave up 1,004 rushing yards on the entire season.
The Lions gave up about 2000 yards.
ITS THE MIKE TOMLIN GAME MANAGEMENT PLAN THAT HE STOLE FROM KIRK FERENTZ WHO ACTUALLY SWIPED IT TO BEGIN WITH FROM LLOYD CARR DURING A SKI TRIP BUT SINCE HE ADDED A COUPLE OF LEVELS OF COOLNESS AND BAD ASS TO IT NOBODY NOTICED
(also, was Tomlin ever a hot shot coordinator? Hardly a requirement to be a killer head coach)