OT: Running through First Base vs Head First Kamakazi Lunge
Back in the day, I used to lunge head first into first base on close plays. I've always held that a head first kamikaze lunge was faster than running through.
Note that I didn't say "sliding". Genuine (head first) sliding into first base to gain an advantage is for sissies, and I'm more than willing to admit is slower than running through the bag.
ESPN Sports Science did a careful high motion study of running through versus diving and overlaid an instance of each technique for a comparison.
https://youtu.be/5JQMqoPR6lM?t=1m10s
ESPN's conclusion? Running through is faster than head first sliding.
But for all their effort, ESPN missed the obvious. The head first slide instance initially pulls ahead of the run-through instance. So...this isn't rocket science...the head first "slider" should arrive at first base while the technique is ahead.runner (at 1:19) in the video.
Now this shouldn't really be called "sliding" into first base because no sliding takes place until after the runner has reached first base. There is an injury risk downside in that the kamikaze lunge landing is going to be more violent than the slide, as the runner will be using some angular momentum to throw his top half downward while keeping his feet on the ground driving forward.
Dogmatic proponents of the run-through technique often counter with the argument "You never see sprinters dive, do you?" So much for that one. Last night, Shaunae Miller stole* the gold from Allyson Felix by diving.
http://www.vox.com/2016/8/15/12495316/allyson-felix-shaunae-miller-400-…
Did this change anyone's opinion about diving into first base?
I think critics of Harold Reynold's opinion such as this sarcastic writer owe Reynolds an apology.
http://mlb.nbcsports.com/2014/04/11/harold-reynolds-diving-head-first-i…
*stole in the non-pejorative sense
August 16th, 2016 at 7:01 PM ^
Man can run faster than he can fly.
August 16th, 2016 at 7:02 PM ^
I usually just hit it out of the park and walk the bases.
August 16th, 2016 at 8:21 PM ^
This guy fucks, amirite? This guy fucks!
August 16th, 2016 at 8:50 PM ^
Erry tine...
August 17th, 2016 at 1:36 AM ^
The great-souled man walks slowly.
"Other traits generally attributed to the great-souled man are a slow gait, a deep voice, and a deliberate utterance; to speak in shrill tones and walk fast denotes an excitable and nervous temperament, which does not belong to one who cares for few things and thinks nothing great."
August 16th, 2016 at 7:06 PM ^
I actually wonder if we will see people begin to lunge for the line in major sprint events. At the very least, the physics of it will get tested out--does it cost too much to put oneself in a lunging position, etc.
I don't think it's sustainable in baseball because over time you will get injured. But in big-time sprinting a runner may only enter a handful of important events a year. If it can gain a fraction of a second...
Well, if it gains time, people will start doing it. Once Olympic berths and medals start changing regularly, it will be something many or most do. At least, in close finishes. Unless they change the rules.
August 16th, 2016 at 7:14 PM ^
And I agree that it should be saved in baseball for the playoffs or playoff-determining games.
I think track-and-field should either embrace it and allow runners to place a single lane mat after the finish line or outlaw it so that runners don't have to throw themselves onto the track.
August 16th, 2016 at 7:44 PM ^
Why? If you choose to dive for the line that's your choice... Land on the track. Why should they have a mat to break their fall? An outfielder laying out for a fly ball does it knowing that he's hitting the turf/ground. It's all part of the risk/reward calculation
August 16th, 2016 at 11:11 PM ^
Lunging is currently an oddity, a rarity. However, if it can be demonstrated that a properly timed lunge can provide an advantage, runners will begin training to do it, and it will become common. Just as soccer-style kicking in football, the Fosbury flop, and so on. And, if that happens, I can see the logic. Because if lunging becomes a regular occurrence, that means that runners need to use a technique to win that is inherently dangerous, and that is a situation that needs to be addressed in the rules.
I'm skeptical that this is actually faster, since I suspect that the leg motion required to launch the torso forward will break the running stride in such a way to decelerate the runner and remove any benefit. But who knows? If something like that emerges, safety precautions will have to be incorporated.
August 16th, 2016 at 8:33 PM ^
I did it once in HS track. 4x400 and we dropped the baton between runners 2 and 3. I was the anchor leg and managed to make up a pretty big gap. We still lost by less than a second and I got a concussion. I didn't really mean to dive but we hadn't lost a 4x400 race that year and I really wanted the win, it just happened. Woke up to smelling salts and scrapes all over my body / face and my teammates surrounding me yelling that it was awesome. My first words were 'did we win?
Nothing you can do about someone who really wants to win and they think a lunge can get it done. Its probably not the smartest thing to do though.
August 16th, 2016 at 10:43 PM ^
Yeah, but did you win?
August 16th, 2016 at 11:02 PM ^
Drop the baton was a DQ where I ran track.
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August 17th, 2016 at 2:55 AM ^
that will not only make it safer to dive across the finish line, but will also make it more fun and rewarding for the athletes and more entertaining for the fans:
http://www.gifbin.com/bin/012016/giy-on-slip-39-n-slide-hits-table-with…
August 17th, 2016 at 10:28 AM ^
I don't know why people are upset about the finish, its not something new. Olympians have been leaning and diving for the line forever. Miller didn't actually "dive" she overleaned and fell. Literally thousands of races have been won by an extreem lean at the end and often falling through the line. Look at the finish of every spring or hurdle race and you eill see the same thing. I won at least three races in college where my hips were behind the other runner and my lean got my shoulders ahead. However, it doesn't translate into baseball because the base is on the ground. Allison Felix's foot crossed the line (hitting the base if there had been one) before Millers shoulder crossed with the dive.
August 16th, 2016 at 7:16 PM ^
I thought this was going to be a thread about the olympics. Did anyone else see the Bahamian woman do a face plant to win her race? Never seen that before, maybe I just don't watch enough running.
August 16th, 2016 at 7:24 PM ^
used a dive to capture a bronze in the men's 400M in 2008, and the USA's Natasha Hastings used a dive to qualify for the very same women's 400M in this years trials.
August 16th, 2016 at 7:17 PM ^
I mean there is a reason people dive for catches...and most of the time its not for show.
August 16th, 2016 at 7:36 PM ^
That's so the player can extend to catch a ball. It's not any faster. This is something totally different.
And in regards to the OP, I've seen some pretty gnarly injuries due to the head first slide, including a dangling finger, so unless it's the World Series it's probably not worth the risk, even if were a bit faster.
August 16th, 2016 at 9:31 PM ^
Broken or strained wrists when diving for a ball.
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August 16th, 2016 at 7:30 PM ^
In sprinting you just have to cross the line at any height. In baseball you still have to land and touch the base. I don't really know if it's any faster, but it's still pretty dumb if you want to actually play a lot and not sit on the DL.
August 16th, 2016 at 7:30 PM ^
I think there could be a place for a lunge in a sprint where crossing a line with your torso first is the goal. I don't know how well it would work in baseball since you have to get down to touch the base. Getting all the way to the ground takes time. But I do think it would be an interesting study.
August 16th, 2016 at 7:42 PM ^
Enough said.
Only slide head first if the 1B man comes off the bag to accept the throw.
August 16th, 2016 at 8:13 PM ^
Sliding in that scenario might carry a bit less risk and could even be a hair faster, but would negate a major reward. If the 1st baseman is pulled off the bag by the throw, the chances for an overthrow (and thus a chance to reach 2nd) are high, but it's a lot harder to get up from a slide into first and break for 2nd than it is to turn from an upright running position and get there.
August 16th, 2016 at 9:34 PM ^
You're not worried about being faster. The 1B man is off the bag, out of position to touch the bag. His only play is to tag you. Head first slide allows the runner to avoid the tag.
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August 17th, 2016 at 8:43 AM ^
never slide head first - go feet first, unless your doing a swing slide into home
August 16th, 2016 at 7:50 PM ^
There's very little scientific about it
SLOW MOTION, BIG NUMBERS, MORE SLOW MOTION, NUMBERS OUT OF CONTEXT "HER ARM SPINS AT 1,500 RADIANS PER SECOND", PHYSICS, VELOCITY, MOMENTUM, PHYVELTUM!!!, "This has been ESPN Sports Science"
August 16th, 2016 at 9:43 PM ^
You might like this:
August 16th, 2016 at 11:16 PM ^
The title was cropped in my browser. So, that was not what I expected at all.
Outstanding.
August 17th, 2016 at 9:05 AM ^
That is awesome, and should become part of the archery competition immediately!
August 17th, 2016 at 9:09 AM ^
Science!!!!
August 16th, 2016 at 7:50 PM ^
The one that makes this damn football season get here the faster has my vote.
August 16th, 2016 at 8:43 PM ^
Signed in to upvote, LOL
August 16th, 2016 at 8:04 PM ^
Miller is a terrible case study because she and Felix were not in the same position moving at the same velocity when she dove/fell. No way to tell if falling was faster than continuing to run at that point.
August 16th, 2016 at 9:36 PM ^
I don't think you can say that gold was stolen, pejoratively or not, when the woman who won it lead the whole race
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August 16th, 2016 at 9:04 PM ^
You shouldn't slide into first because you can run through the base, so there's no need to stop your momentum. This is in contrast to the other bases where you slide to stop your momentum or avoid a tag. A good baserunner might accelerate or stretch their foot as they get closer to that last step. Your foot is much closer to the ground and you have to touch the base, so it's not really analogous to getting your hand over the base, where diving might be faster. Also, the run through provides the added pressure that a misplayed ball means an extra base.
I do feel like this calls for the willy mays Hayes slide where he stops short of the base.
August 16th, 2016 at 9:11 PM ^
Yup. You know how miserable Bo was as Michigan's coach. That's why he kept discipline internal.
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August 16th, 2016 at 9:12 PM ^
Whoops, wrong thread. Mobile App hiccup.
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August 16th, 2016 at 9:37 PM ^
Are you thinking of the time Bo spent with the Tigers? He wasn't a player.
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August 16th, 2016 at 9:13 PM ^
Crossing a line and touching a base are two different things. It doesn't matter when your nose or whatever crosses the plane of the base but when you touch it. In sprinting your nose breaking the plane counts as finishing.
August 16th, 2016 at 9:20 PM ^
It's your torso which counts in track.
August 16th, 2016 at 9:25 PM ^
It's the torso, not the nose. The torso determines the official time.
To account for big noses, I guess.
August 16th, 2016 at 9:40 PM ^
You should get your foot there before your head. Just sayin.
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August 16th, 2016 at 10:08 PM ^
Diving into first is about as smart as sliding head first into home. If it's to beat out a two out single with no one on then it's not worth the risk. If it's to ensure the winning run gets home then by all means, do what's necessary.
August 16th, 2016 at 10:13 PM ^
If one could get from point A to point B faster by sliding, people would do it in the 100-yard dash. It's slower, and puts the runner at risk for an injury. Therefore, it is stupid to slide into 1st base.
August 16th, 2016 at 10:32 PM ^
it would be very painful to slide for 100 yards, or 100 meters.
But the question is more about diving and hitting the goal line (or first base) before doing any sliding.
August 16th, 2016 at 10:20 PM ^
Fuck Harold Reynolds.