Yes, Beat Ohio goes without saying. Actually it should be said everyday now that I think about it.
Anyway this is a new position for Michigan fans. Have we ever had a former Michigan football head coach get fired, and wind up a head coach elsewhere? Moeller went right to the pros, didn't he?
I know some people are irritated by the attention being given to RR during Beat Ohio week, but this is sort of a morbid curiosity type thing. If RR crashes and burns at Arizona, his critics will be validated and vice versa for his apologists.
Bump left to become AD at Iowa. Gary Moeller coached the Lions for a handful of games. That's the closest I can come up with. Schembechler, Elliott, Oosterbaan, Crisler, Kipke, Yost; they all ended their coaching days in Ann Arbor.
Moeller (assistant) went off to become HC at Illinois for a time; but that gets us into a very long list of assistants and players who went off to become head coaches.
I'm not sure what school Lloyd Carr was working for after he retired as Head Coach.
Cracks me up to read people's comments about how we need to focus on Ohio [State]. As if it matters what we read and write this week.
And yeah, I suppose that Coach Rodriguez might continue to be a proxy argument for many of us. It is a two-way street of course. If people want to continue to bash him, then there will be people who will defend him. It is really the haters who need to get over Rodriguez, not his supporters.
I find myself caring less in the wake of his hiring at Arizona, but only because I know how hard it will be to use Arizona's success to shame Rodriguez's local media critics. The sad thing is that while Rodriguez is gone, we still have the Free Press as a daily feature of our football program.
Oh thank god. For a second there I thought you were going to make a whole post without mentioning the Free Press.
We prefer to be referred to as RR Defenders, because that makes us sound more righteous. No link to the logo and costume; they are still being designed.
I like the "Beat Ohio" meme. Is it always on MGoBlog or is it just new to Michigan football this year? I feel like in past years it was still Beat Ohio State, or Beat OSU, or Go Blue Beat OSU.
So no "THIS IS ARIZONA, FERGODSAKES" yet?
Think a big miss for him at the presser was his "Why not Arizona? Why not here?" segment. He went on for a bit talking about this and makes you wonder what exactly his opinion/thought of Arizona football is.
"Who says this isn't an elite job?!"
"we've had some pretty good teams here!"
Don't be too enthusiastic Reverend....
he must know its osu week; he just got in a "hold hands and sing kumbaya" joke
-He said that all former players are welcome back with open arms.
-The Territorial Cup (rivalry with ASU) will be emphasized everyday.
-Thinks Arizona should be a Top 10 team every year and a power out west.
-Also said that he will live Arizona Football.
found it very interesting how much he talked the importance of the ASU rivalry. Another point he learned from his time here, knowing what's important to the school and your fans.
Rita made AD Greg Byrne the magic Nacho Dip. Stuff's like liquid cocaine.
As an Arizona student, I am thrilled about this hire. A reason to buy season tickets next year. It'll be just like four years ago. I'm excited to see them get trampled and then ultimately attain the vindication that we (not to mention RR+staff) were all denied. It's like missing the end of a movie and going home to see it on your television.
I'd be excited, too. I think good times are ahead for Arizona football.
If you guys get a staff that includes Rodriguez, Casteel and Calvin Magee, you are going to have some very big fun with your football program. I might suggest that you just got the Lute Olson of football, but given Coach Olson's later uneven personal history, that might be inappropriate adulation for Coach Rodriguez.
Arizona is a really lucky football program right now.
Rich Rod got anything to work with?
or hand holding yet? Seriously though.....good luck to Rich Rod. I would imagine he would LOVE the opportunity to play us in Pasadena someday.
Who else is buying an arizona hat?
If I'm wearing a hat, it's a Michigan hat.
I don't always wear hats, but when I do, I prefer Michigan hats.
You can tell he's learned from his time here. He said he was going to learn as much as he can about the traditions there from former players, etc. He said he plans to get out and meet the fans. He stressed how they will continue to recruit the key areas for AZ and focus on them.
The opening made me wince as he spoke of his son being in the Top 5 QB class of 2017, who was a decomit from WVU then a decomit from Michigan but he's a commit of AZ and "don't worry he won't decomit". Thought this was a very odd way of opening his presser.
He's still a little bitter as he continually talks about everyone (fans, admin, etc) pulling in the same direction and all supporting. But did like the little shout out to Michigan and the players, he definitely didn't want to talk about Michigan but said that we're good and will be good for a long time.
One point of the presser was the stressing of RichRod being a leader of compliance, a move to help calm the minds of the fans.
He did say this will be his last coaching stop, which I'm sure is alot of PR but he touched on that a few times and was interesting.
Good luck RichRod, best to you and your fam.
He's justified about being a little bitter about not everyone pulling in the same direction.
Does Demar Dorsey to Arizona make too much sense?
someone tagged this post as funny, but i bet it's a real possibility.
That would be hilarious, I personally think (i.e. guess) that if Demar doesn't walk on at UM (doubtful) that he ends up at Tennessee
"I think the huddle the biggest waste of time in football." HALOL
Can anyone honestly disagree with him? What does a huddle buy you other than burning time so that you don't get to the line too quickly when you are trying to run clock?
It could've helped keep his 110th ranked defense off the field last year.
because it's such a good time-waster?
You do realize that you can run the play clock down without a huddle, right?
time for your defense to rest.
Not sure if serious, but it is much more tiring for a defense on the field facing a no huddle.
Look it's simple math if they run more plays they'll score more points. A hurry up spread will never have the best statistical defense because they play more plays. If Oregon played Arizona they would run the amount of plays equivalent to a regular 5 qtr game. More plays more points. Old school offensive and defensive numbers are skewed when you play uptempo.
Just a waste of time. I fully agree that there's no useful purpose for it at all.
Did you watch the end of the Iowa game ??? IIRC we burned up about 20-30 seconds at a time we could have used them.
Did you watch the 9 games Michigan won this year?
Settle down there, guy. It's going to be OK. Take a breath.
There are times foregoing the huddle is a good thing. Numerous teams do well without it.
And numerous teams do not.
With one of the worst defenses in college football, there is something to be said for slowing down the game. And, with a QB who is interception happy (late last year, in particular), it may have made sense to slow it down a bit.
I agree, however, that there are times when no-huddle makes sense. The problem with RR is that he seems to think that everything is black or white - no middle. The huddle "is the biggest waste of time." Or "I will only run a spread option, even though my QB is Nick Sheridan" or "I will continue to run a 3-3-5 even though my DC doesn't know how to run it and it is not working."
Did you watch the previous 2 teams to play in the national title game?
I agree w/ him, just thought it was funny he came out and said it.
That was a little surreal to watch, honestly
I've spoken with him directly (albeit very brief) and he's certainly still hurt by the Michigan situation and he told me it's a love/hate thing in watching them. He wants to see them do well, yet, he feels like this year he could've had the same success with this team.
He was calling our game so I just told him good luck with the broadcast, told him not all Michigan fans are like what you see and hear (and he said "you know, I get that more now than you'd believe...so many people go out of their way to say. Sorry Coach, we wish you the best, we're not all bad!")
It was literally a 90 second convo, but I came away feeling:
#1 He truly does love those guys and loved Michigan
#2 He's still very bitter and feels he got the "raw deal"
#3 He thinks he'd have 9, 10, 11 wins with this team
#4 He still doesn't "get it"
#5 He'll never "get it"
#6 He's had these conversations more than he's wanted to
#7 His ego is hurt because people see him as a "loser" or "failure" rather than a great coach
#8 People think he didn't care about the guys, and that eats him up more than anything
Personally I disagree that this team would be as good as it is now...you can't outscore everyone in the Big Ten and that offense never proved it could work in November. Weather, tougher teams, ball control always hurt that offense. Van Bergan talked about how ball control hurt the defense too. And you had teams that played keepaway, like we did with Nebraska...and ran the ball 50 times in a row *cough* Wisconsin *cough*. Denard could've been awesome, but what's he going to do with 5 possession, feeling like he's gotta put up 35 points or they lose?
I do think he loves the players...not so much Michigan, but I think he cares about this team. I also think that he's going to have trouble getting over his 3 years at Michigan.
Wow, you hit hard in your 90-second introductions. I'm lucky if I get through the weather in the first 90 seconds that I meet someone.
Kind of my job...not to speed interview. But I just went to check and see if they needed anything. That took 5 seconds, and then I had to introduce myself and I did so by saying I was a Michigan fan. So we chatted for like I said a couple minutes and he went back inside the booth.
You just get the feeling he truly believes he had something special coming this year. I'd have to agree to disagree because I never saw that offense do anything vs. a real defense.
I've seen him in interview talk about how proud and how well they played vs. Illinois. That tells me he just doesn't get it. 3 OTs vs. ILLI-FREAKING-NOIS!?! 60-something points?! At home!? No way. I was proud of THIS YEARS team for how they went down there and handled business.
Talk about Malzahn all you want. He had the best player in college football and a QB who was big enough to withstand the hits of the SEC. Same with Tebow. Denard can't be compared to either of those guys.
However, if you put Denard out in the Pac-12 in November on Rich Rod's Arizona team, I'm sure you get something that'll look like Oregon. Those leagues, climates, style of play, everything is different. Stanford, Cal, Washington and USC may play like the B1G, everyone else...not so much. Other than Washington, who isn't that good...you're not going to have to go deal with weather in those games for the most part. Other than USC, you're not going to have to deal with a physical OSU, Wisky, MSU, PSU, Nebraska (now Michigan) style defense. It's different. Period.
Anyway, back to the story...like I said, part of me feels bad for the guy. Part of me wishes he'd just get over himself and realize that he could've done something to help his cause. Hiring a defensive coordinator and letting him do his thing with HIS staff would've been start. Learning the B1G. Having a smoother transition so you don't dig yourself into such a whole. If Michigan goes 6-6, 7-5, 8-4...Rich Rod might still be here.
All in all, I wish him the best...I'm just not worried about him. Because as much as I wanted to agree that he got the raw deal...the fact that he doesn't believe he did anything bothers me just as much to the point where I'm like "f-it...Rich who?"
Someone get Chip Kelly on the phone! His offense doesn't work in November! Gus Malzahn, too! And the littany of other coaches running the offense that manages to work, score points, and WIN in November!
Different conferences, different climates, different D Coordinators
Malzahn isn't even a HC. Auburn isn't even that good without Cam (who is amazing, btw).
Right, its all Cam Newton.
Not replacing something like 15 starters between offense and defense. (the most of any team in FBS)
No spread team has ever won the national championshp. Good call.
how does your defensive coordinator effect your offensive success in November? Oregon/WVU/Florida/Auburn never played a game in cold weather? Are you telling me the B1G defenses are just that superior to everyone else in college football that this is the only conference in the country that the spread doesn't work?
I appreciate healthy skepticism but this is getting ridiculous. Because RR failed the spread doesn't work in the B1G, that's law. Ok...
but I guess we'll see when Meyer and Co. come to town in Columbus.
To your points:
1. Your defense effects the offense a lot and vice versa. If you have to go 80 yards on every drive you have a much lower percent chance at scoring (i.e. D stops for field position, 3 and outs make the opposing defense tired, having the other team play keep away limits offensive rythm, etc)
2. Oregon/WVU/Florida/Auburn: have played games in bad weather, but I doubt they play as many poor weather games as most Big Ten teams do.
*Weather.com and the NCDC
3. I'm not saying this is a conference where the spread doesnt work, but I am saying that Big Ten defenses are typically more stingy than Big East and Pac 12 defenses. SEC is a great conference with great defenses, but I believe its easier to run an offense in better conditions and in warmer weather.
4. I didn't say anything about RR failing means the spread doenst work in the Big Ten...so nice try
4. to be fair to you, I didn't think you meant to say that. I'm just tired of the awful arguments that it can't work in the B1G. Are the circumstances different than in other conferences, sure. But for anyone to assert out and out that it can't work is one of the dumbest things I've ever read and its perpetuated, a lot.
under what train of logic does the relative success of "run fast holding the ball" and "be a pocket statue who either throws deep or hands off to a slow but big guy" depend on the temperature?
If anything, it's passing that gets affected most by bad weather. RR's spread (and Chip Kelly's spread) are all about the run game.
Hey, I'm with you and appreciate the response.
If I had to put a stand on something it would be this: when the weather got worse, our offense did not move the ball very well. I love RR's offense, but I was always more confortable with a Wisconsin style offense in the cold, wind, and rain/snow.
Our stingy B1G defenses have done so well against the spread in non-conference games.
Me: I think the spread can be adapted to the B1G, and B1G defenses can adapt to the spread. Rich never got a chance to get his offense fully installed, and yes that is in a big part because he totally blew it on defense.
The meme that "ha ha, bring it Ohio, the spread won't work in the B1G" is bravado or naivety at best. It's a matter of finding and recruiting the right athletes (i.e, big and fast), and building a strong defense to go along with it. Rich Rodriguez didn't do the former in time, and didn't do the latter at all. Urban Meyer has done both and won two national championships.
that destroys the field, the whole climate deal is ridiculous.
The most important factors in a system are talent and experience. This was the first year since 2007 that Michigan could say they have both across the board. That's why it was somewhat pathetic listening to everyone say "Oh man, I really hope we even get 7 wins this year, then I'll be happy." This team was always better than that.
To be fair, I'm pretty certain that the point he was getting at was that the offense that RR runs, historically, has substantial difficulty in cold weather and against stronger than average defenses (although, really, most offenses would). The bigger problem for him, which is now pretty much rectified by going to Arizona, is that his offense really has struggled in cold weather situations. No idea why, and maybe it's just coincidence, but a number of instances stand out in my mind, both at WVU and Michigan.
You remember 1 game against Pitt when Pat White broke his hand and the last few years when we played OSU with a JV team.
WV lit up Georgia and Oklahoma in bowl games. Mich moved the ball well in bad weather games with RR here, but didn't score as well because ya know freshmen, horrid defense etc...
You know who doesn't move the ball well against good defenses in bad weather? Pretty much everyone.
"You remember 1 game against Pitt when Pat White broke his hand and the last few years when we played OSU with a JV team."
Thanks for trying to tell me what I remember, but you're wrong. I watched a lot of WVU games during RR's tenure there (lived in Pittsburgh; friends at WVU; actually liked RR before he came to Michigan (and still do); etc.). I'm completely comfortable in saying that I watched way more than you did.
"WV lit up Georgia and Oklahoma in bowl games."
Two problems with this: (1) both games were indoors and (2) Rodriguez was not the coach of WVU for the Oklahoma Fiesta Bowl game.
"Mich moved the ball well in bad weather games with RR here."
Maybe you missed last year's Purdue game?
stop being ridiculous. "like the purdue game last year?" in that case the pro set never works in bad weather because of purdue '95.
I was being sarcastic in that comment. Apparently that didn't come through...
Let's go a different direction with this one: name me one game where Michigan, under Rodriguez, moved the ball well in poor weather conditions. Shouldn't be hard, since you're apparently going to defend Ziff72's claim that "Mich moved the ball well in bad weather games with RR here." Just one will do.
I did not pick up on the sarcasm, my bad.
I was just making the point that any offense will struggle in bad weather...to use Purdue last year as the reason this offense sucks in November is pretty weak sauce.
we were blessed with pretty good weather all November last year.
We're both supporters of the spread system, RR did a lot wrong at M but running the spread system had nothing to do with it.
Correlation does not equal causation. Please explain precisely why the RR running spread would be less effective than a pro-set offense in poor weather.
Or to put it more directly, if it's cold, wet, and windy, would you rather have Chad Henne or Denard Robinson taking snaps?
We did poorly in November last year. The weather was worse in November. We also played better defenses. Which do you think was the more important factor?
No idea why. I'm not comparing the effectiveness of the spread versus the pro-style offense. My point was about RR's offense versus any other offense, spreads included. Maybe it's a coaching thing, I have no idea; just an observation, but for what ever reason, his teams always seemed to be impacted by adverse weather conditions more than other teams.
In my opinion, the Denard versus Henne question is actually a tough one.
ND 08 With Threet and Mcguffie at the controls in a rain storm we went up and down the field. Turnovers killed us.
The point stands that people who don't like the spread bring up big games where a defense stuffed them never admitting the fact that a traditional offense or any offense would probably struggle.
I like when people point to LSU stopping Oregon. Well Oregon put up a lot of points and yards on LSU. Much more than Alabama did. The only 2 teams that evne sniffed a decent offensive performance against LSU were Oregon(run spread) and WV(pass spread)
You minimize probably the most important part: "Turnovers killed us." Sure, they moved the ball well in that game, and several others with similar conditions, but is that not part of his offense struggling in poor weather conditions? I mean, unless I'm missing something, what we started talking about here wasn't whether or not the offense could move the ball, but whether or not the offense has struggled (relatively more than other offenses) in poorer weather conditions. The causes might be different from game to game, but they are problems nonetheless.
Thank you. My sentiments exactly.
For some reason, RR seemed to struggle in poor conditions.
And just so you don't waste your time, because I saw you make this argument in response to someone else, I actually like Rodriguez and the spread option offense. My comments here are only about the offense that Rodriguez runs; not about the spread option in general. I just wanted to be clear about that.
OK, I'll bite. Hey guess what, those offenses have elements of the RR spread & shred, as do about 50 others you could mention. However, none of them run the QB anything even near to what RR's system does.
Pat White-191 carries
Pat White-197 carries
Denard Robinson-235 carries
Show me a Chip Kelly or Gus Malzahn offense with a QB shouldering that load, expecially a particularly undersized one playing in a conference full of NFL talent.
Did I miss something or did a USC team full of freshmen & sophmores on D just beat Chip? Do you think he'll stand a chance when those are juniors & seniors at USC?
Get me Les MIles on the phone so I can ask him if he'd rather face Oregon again or Alabama, he's not escared of their trickety offense.
Yeah Gus Malzhan would never have his QB run that much.
Have you ever heard of a kid named Tebow?
Listen you have no idea what you are talking about. Who would Miles like to face? You have no idea. I don't think he wants any part of Oregon again. They moved the ball much better than Alabama did. Does Alabama have a better team? Maybe. They also have like 20 NFL players to Oregon's 5 so what are you saying?
As for USC. They have been embarrassed by Oregon the last few years with much more experienced teams. They win 1 of 3 on a missed FG and now all of a sudden the spread doesn't work?
Just say you like power football over option football. Both work just fine if you get the right kids. This argument is stupid.
Cam was a freak, you have him on your team you run him as much as allows, Tebow played in RR/Urban Meyer's system and ran a ton. You didnt mention Meyer in you original post.
Point is, I like power football because, all other things equal, its the best. See NFL for supporting data.
Now, I've likened the spread to the winged-T that run in hundreds of high schools across the country because they both do the following things well
1. exploit the inexperience of the defensive players
2. allow lesser/smaller offensive linemen to be effective
3. Are easy to teach players that you're only going to have for a couple years
4. Keep defensive coordinators playing a guessing game
This is all great and admirable stuff, and if Michigan wants to relegate itself to an also ran, not capable of getting top talent then they should run a system that give them a schematic advantage, however if Michigan wants to compete with the perrenial best of the best(USC, OSU, LSU) who have NFL talent on board and run NFL based systems, then Michigan had better get NFL bound players and coach them as such.
Oregon is a flash in the pan at this point, no NC's, a few good years and have yet to beat a quality SEC team(unlike Lloyd who owned their asses).
Was Bo wrong when he ran the option? Lou Holtz? Barry Switzer? I can't believe Tom Osborne was able to overcome that schematic disadvantage against Miami and Florida to win back to back titles. Florida, Oklahoma, Auburn flash in the pans running that sissy spread.
Any coach will tell you an option atack will work at any level beacuse it is simple math.
LSU runs option, Alabama is in the pistol.
Not sure how else to tell you but you are wrong.
Power football is great. I grew up on it and I love it, but to argue against the spread at this point is to say the world is flat. Both schemes work well if taught well.
Pat White had Steve Slaton. Oregon has Lamichael James. We had Vincent Smith.
I think that's your difference right there.
Ask Les Miles if he'd rather play Alabama or last year's Auburn again. Hint: he lost to one of those teams.
Cam Newton had more rushing attempts than both of those players you've listed last year.
I'm sure if you asked RR if he wanted a 6'5 240lb 4.5 40 running manbeast as his QB instead of a 6'0 200lb guy he'd take it.
You're right, it was all USCs defense smothering that gimmicky offense that Chip runs out there. They held them to a paltry 474 yards.
2 Turnovers, blocked punt, miss FG.
Oregon's offensive capabilities had nothing to do with their loss.
Your argument doesn't make sense.
I agree with almost everything that you note.
RR is a guy who really does love his players, and really does feel that he got a raw deal.
On the raw deal thing, I don't see how he can feel that way, given that in his 3 years here, he won 3,5 and 7 games, got blown out by OSU all three years, lost to MSU all three years, only won a handful of B10 games in total over three years, and capped his time with a blowout embarassment (despite having those 16 extra practices and a healthy team) in the Gator.
On an objective basis, setting aside all of the noise, he did not perform up to expectations - not even close - and he was fired for it.
As to the whole "get it" thing, I agree - he just doesn't get it, and he never will. Watching this presser confirmed it. Watching RR say that he will emphasize the ASU rivalry every day, that he will "live ASU football" and that he will learn all of their traditions, to me at least, came off as him saying "I should have said these things at Michigan, so I will say them here, because saying them and playing into the whole rivalry, tradition thing will show that I get it and showing that I get it is important." ASU is not Michigan - I don;t know shit about Arizona, but are they as into their traditions? Is the ASU rivalry a big deal like the OSU rivalry is to us?
Whatever, I am sorry for getting on my soap box, but I just needed to vent. All of the attention being paid to RR during OSU week brought back my "please fire this guy . . . I am so happy he is gone" feelings. Again, sorry.
totally not relevant to Michigan like pervs at PSU instead, or it's Tuesday, what are your drinking.
Seriously, Rich Rod being hired somewhere else is relevant. So is the Urban Meyer developments down in Columbus. While I agree that discussion about Ohio versus other common opponents, and other analyses about The Game is more appropriate for this week, most of that kind of content doesn't get posted in MGoBoard, and this topic drives clicks.
We already did all the Bo reminiscing last week. The pressers have been pretty bland. (With the press asking questions like Hoke was hired yesterday - maybe there is more national press that haven't been around during the season?)
So relax, and don't click on the Rich Rodriguez threads if you would prefer to focus on what to have at tailgates, etc.
So, if RR talks about rivalries, he's just doing it to appease the fanbase and "doesn't get it". If he doesn't talk about rivalries, he doesn't understand what's important to the fanbase and "doesn't get it". Way to set up a no-win scenario there.
Look, if you just don't like the guy that's totally fine. He rubbed you the wrong way. It happens. But say that. Don't couch your personal dislike in the nebulous concept of "getting it" whatever that means.
RR thinks he got a raw deal because he told Mary Sue and Bill Martin going in that things were going to take 3-4 years and would be rough before that time. But he got zero support through the bad times and cut loose after three years. He thought Michigan would be a first-class place where he could expect class treatment and only the best for his players and coaches, but it wasn't - he was sniped at at every step for faults real and imagined, and still got zero support from the AD. He knew he needed a good DC, but Martin was tight with the purse-strings. He had to take the fall for the bad blood with WVU because Mary Sue and Bill Martin put a gag order on him (because they didn't want to risk their own skins). Then, on the way out, DB intentionally fires him too late for him to land a good job and then doesn't give him a Gator Bowl ring, just to rub it in a little more.
In his mind, and I'd say this isn't terribly unrealistic, he probably believes he came in and was exactly who he told everyone he was going to be - and yet he was never backed up by his bosses, depite being vilified for being the coach they hired him to be.
Yeah he lost, and that's what matters most to the average fan, but we all know there was a lot more to it than that, places where he really was treated poorly.
I don't think we would have been 9-2 heading into The Game under Rich Rod, but that's because of the defense, not the offense. When Casteel decided to stay at WVU, it exposed Rodriguez's cluelessness about defense. Even if he fired GERG, there's no way he would have hired a DC of Mattison's caliber and allowed him to do his job without constantly meddling with the scheme. And his position coaches were also part of the problem (especially Gibson, as has been discussed extensively on this site).
But aside from that, I never thought he was anything but a class act and a stand-up guy. I hope he's learned from his mistakes. I'll definitely be rooting for him to succeed at UA.
unfortunately it doesn't sound like he's going to leave the defense alone:
“I like to run the odd front because it gives you versatility, but even the 3-3-5 now has morphed into a 3-4. I’m going to try to hire the best defensive coordinator I can, and if his schemes and philosophy can match some of the parameters I give him, then we’ll do that...I’m not married, so to speak, to a 3-3-5.”
I think you have a great read on his psyche, but your questions about scheme have been beat to death. Haven't Oregon, Florida, Auburn etc. been enough to prove that the spread can work?
1. Spread works
2. It works in bad weather
3. Ball control is a byproduct of good offense/defense not a game strategy.
Also Van Bergen is quoted in Brian's UVF as saying this team had something going that people on the outside could not see and they didn't want that to be ruined regardless of who the coach was. So you may not think RR could have got them to 9-10 wins but the players on the team did.
But the paucity of coaching acumen on the defensive staff tells me that their hopes were based more on blind faith than reality. True believers will hold on even when it is obvious to a blind person that things are not working.
A rational being can see that Rich's program would not have succeeded with the egregious defense that he had. His special teams were also awful. Being bad at two-thirds of the game does not augur well for future success.
perception is reality.
sometimes you have to tell people what they want to hear even if it doesn't have any relationship to anything in reality.
He tried the "say what you believe" approach at Michigan and was vilified for it. Now we're back to Fort Schembechler.
If RR has a problem with honesty, it's too much of it.
with you and Ziff below.
Sadly, too many in the "Michigan Football Family" - ex-players, alums, ex-coaches, admins, columnists, fans - insisted that because THEY didn't read/hear those things that RR was saying to the team, he must not have believed them, or didn't know them, or whatever.
Including a 90 second interaction with our former coach.
That guy doesn't get it, and seemingly, never did, right?
He said the exact same things at the Michigan presser. All coaches say the exact same thing. The only thing he might have learned is to mention the traditions, but I think he said that at the U-M presser.
Personally, I interpret Rodriguez's comments as intended for the press. And that the message can be summed up this way:
I bet no one at Arizona cares what he's saying, they're just thinking: "sweet we got Rich Rodriguez."
Jeebus the NCAA stuff is annoying. It's getting mentioned in every article. Why? When you've got coaches getting canned for lying to the NCAA, covering up illegal benefits, and oh yeah looking the other way when you hear about child rape?
Damn, if the worst thing you have on a coach is that his kids stretched for 20 minutes too long on Mondays (even though they didn't exceed 20 hrs for the week), that coach is a freakin' saint.
The fact that Michigan was tagged with a "major violation" is just proof that the NCAA had a really dumb definition of "major violation" that's since been changed.
Basically, RR's staff was guilty of committing a minor (and apparently inadvertent) accounting error against a Byzantine rule set that most coaches don't understand. The violations provided at best a miniscule competitive advantage (much less than St. Saban Memorial, which continues unabated).
I'm not saying RR's absolved, but he's hardly a scofflaw, and acting like that should disqualify him as a coach is silly alarmism by the media.
I hope he succeeds in Arizona. I personally love the read option offense(see Oregon for an example). If he can get a good defensive coordinator like Casteel, I see no reason he can't win 8-9 games a season in the Pac 12.
who he gets for his staff. He mentioned a couple of times that he had 3-4 guys that he's had long ties with from WVU and Michigan, then kind of covered it up by saying "if they accept and come".
I believe all those guys found jobs, so do they leave after a year? Does Barwis leave after just opening his gym? Casteel leaving would be very interesting.
Hey Coach Jackson, this is Rich. Just wanted to know, have you ever been to Arizona?
I'll bet Barwis goes with him. An integral part of RR's philosophy is to have the kind of conditioning that will maximize quickness as opposed to size. Barwis specializes in this.
It'd be easy for Barwis to maintain ownership of his gym and keep his name on it while delegating the day-to-day operations to a staff, and go with RR to Arizona.
I would be surprised if this is not what ends up happening.
Not to mention, if I were Barwis I'd be seeing dollar signs. He's got his gym in Michigan, if he can find someone to run it (while still leaving himself available for consultations when needed) 90% of the time and get a job at Arizona, he'd be doing very well for himself.
Good for him, guy is clearly very respected in his profession and he deserves to get paid off his accomplishments (if that is his goal).
As far as I know, the only member of his Michigan defensive staff that got promoted was Jay Hopson, who became a DC briefly and is not currently coaching. The rest are still position coaches so Arizona would be a horizontal move back to a familiar situation.
He seems to be certain he had the right formula here and would have won with his staff and this year's players. I suspect he'll try to put that defensive staff together again, maybe with Hopson as his coordinator, or maybe with Hopson back in his old slot and somebody new brought in to "coordinate".
God help him, whoever he is. I hope anyone contacted for the position puts in a call to Scott Shafer before he accepts.
Also, I know RichRod had a lot to deal with here, but this constantly repeated idea that he was put upon and faced tremendous adversity is wearing me out. I think every chapter of Three and Out contained a quote to the effect of "if they would just leave me alone, I could really make this work." Maybe it's true that RichRod faced more adversity than your average coach at a big time football program (maybe!), but at a certain point, I think that attitude becomes counter productive. Not just in football, but in all jobs. I think that "woe is me" attitude and blame-deflection may have contributed to RichRod's failure here as much as anything else. (Oh, and a defense that was not fundamentally or schematically sound).
And I'm tired of him expressing his frustration that he can't be the one coaching us to 10 wins this year. You know what, if RichRod is still here, we don't have 10 wins. He had 3 years to pick a decent DC and defensive coaching staff. He had 2 years to teach Will Campbell to keep his butt down and not stand up on the DL. He had 3 years to teach J.T. Floyd how to cover. He failed to do that nad failed to hire someone who could. What makes him think he could find the right person for the job in year 4?
I wish the guy all the best. I like his offensive scheme, and I think he's a guy that tries in general to do the right thing. But his constant refrain of not getting a fair shake and wishing he was the one enjoying success in 2011 is really wearing on me.
If I knew, how, I would insert that gif of the guy doing the slow clap. That, sir, was awesome. Well said. Fair and right to the point. If RR is here, we don't have 10 wins - the defense was never going to improve with him at the helm.
Which Three and Out did you read? The one by John U. Bacon?
Maybe you could recommend a Kumon location near him.
1) WE DON'T HAVE 10 WINS YET GOOD LORD DO YOU WANT TO HEX THE WHOLE THING!?!?!
2) Would you rather he not give a damn about how the kids he recruited were doing? Would you rather he say, "yeah that Hoke guy is a way better coach than me". He loved his team and wishes he was there leading them. He thinks he's the best man to lead them. I'd be really worried if he didn't.
1). Yeah, I meant roughly 10 wins - not that we're going to have 10 wins. Because that's for the football gods to decide. (Checks over shoulder, hopes "Beat Ohio" intro and outro appeases football gods).
2). Totally fair. I expect him to want the team to win and to follow what they are doing. And no , I don't expect him to say "Hoke is better, I couldn't have done this." What bothers me is the "I wasn't treated fairly" attitude. If he can't talk about Michigan without making excuses (if I had only had a third opportunity to choose a DC), then I think he ought to just avoid the subject.
Any how, this is turning into more of a rant than I wanted it to be. Sorry for the borderline flaming. I'm going to follow my own advice - if I don't have anything nice to say about RichRod, then I just won't discuss him at all.
That is a hell of a quote about RR from Urban Meyer. Anyone idiot that says RR can't coach (which surprinsly you do see a bit here and a lot on other sites) or that his system doesn't work in the B10, or other such drivel, can just think about the quote and STFU.
Hmmm. Let's weigh the evidence:
In the "anyone idiot (sic) that says RR can't coach or that his system doesn't work in the B10 . . . can STFU" column, we have a quote. A quote by Urban Meyer (the new OSU coach, apparently), who has never coached in the B10, and who got his ass handed to him by stodgy old boring Lloyd Carr.
In the column that believes that RR's offense is not well suited to the B10 or that RR is not a great HC, we have: THE WORST 3 YEARS IN MICHIGAN HISTORY, complete with the worst Michigan defense EVER, GERG, rotating D coordinators, 15 wins in three years, OSU blowouts, a Gator humiliation, team chaos, the worst transition I have ever witnessed (and I have watched cfb for almost 20 years), poor recruiting, 2 straight collapses once we got to the B10 part of the schedule and, wait, a new coach who has taken the identical players and turned them into a top defense AND a balanced, productive offense on the verge of possibly getting 10 wins - gasp, in the first year of a transition.
But, yeah, you do have that quote.
not just a different opinion, but wrong. That's first. Second, Urban Meyer knows more than you about who can coach. Period. There is no other "column." He is right because he knows WAY more than you (and I). Your opinion is talk radio quality--just because it is a fact that Michigan did not go well for him, that doesn't obscure the fact that he can coach. There are many other facts that disagree with your opinion, and for the ultimate rejoinder to your opinion, see Urban Meyer and Bob Stoops. Plus his record at WVA. And his offense here. There is no comparison. Sorry again.
--Discrediting Urban Meyer despite earning 2 national champions in his first 4 years of coaching at Florida.
--Using blanket statements about the team's win-loss record rather than specifics regarding why it was Rodriguez's coaching that led to his win-loss record.
--The false statement that the last 3 years were the worse 3 years ever (you meant "worst 3-year period").
--Mentioning how poor of a recruiter Rodriguez is despite that he shouldn't have needed to start many of his recruits in the first few years of his tenure, and that his recruits are performing well under Mattison/Hoke.
--Never refuting the claim that RR's offense is not well suited to the Big Ten.
--WTF does "team chaos" mean? You mean how he brought the team together so Hoke/Mattison don't have to deal with the transfers he did? Or should Rodriguez have done more to prevent Lloyd Carr's direct undermining of him in his first year?
--Here's something that may surprise you: comparing this year to last year, Hoke's record against common opponents is identical to Rodriguez's record. See, I can make statements that are 100% truth and blanket the underlying cause too. Now, I think Hoke will prove this wrong by beating Ohio State this weekend, but part of the reason why he wins is because Ohio State is in turmoil right now, without last year's coach or quarterback.
If you want to continue this stimulating discussion with me, come join me on MLive.*
*I'm not on MLive.
If I remember correctly, Michigan's defenses under Lloyd were torched by spread offenses. Northwestern games come to mind often. How did we do against Oregon in 2007? We gave up 39 points and 624 yards. The game was over by halftime. That's just off the top of my head. As for the Florida game, I seem to remember that it was more that we outscored them than we shut their offense down. Florida scored 30 points for crying out loud.
Urban Meyer?? The guy who tore up the SEC before Saban showed up? The guy who had carte blanche on recruits of his choice in Florida because at the time he coached Miami & FSU were off the map? The guy who brought us TEBOW? Of course he loves him some RR. He copied his damn playbook and had great success with it until Saban & Miles got up to speed with their systems.
My fondest memory of Urban Meyer is watching Lloyd Carr & company beat his ass & give the NFL a free preview of what Tebow would look like facing a real defense.
Fuck Urban Meyer, he's a buckeye wanna be who coached a team of convicts & talked bad about Michigan, his quotes about anybody don't amount to a hill of shit to me.
Unless you can't help it that is. Your post is patently ridiculous and idiotic. You are both factually wrong, and given other posts I've seen from you, ignorant.
Can we stop pretending that Lloyd's last win somehow invalidates everything Urban Meyer did at Florida? Sure, it was a great game and a big win, but a) Michigan should have been in a better bowl (they lost a lot of games that year with banged up starters on offense) and b) Michigan won mostly by being more spread-like.
Urban Meyer can coach. Regardless of anything else you may think about him, dude can coach (so can Saban, who I have no qualms saying is a complete ass).
I think we can beat him, but let's not pretend we'll do that by Lloyd-balling him to death.
Per ESPN: Rodriguez has signed a five-year, $9.55 million contract to coach at Arizona. The university will pay $8.05 million and the rest will come from Nike and IMG.
Didn't know Nike and IMG made deals like this...
Horace Greeley would approve, as do I.
That was great stuff. After reading Three and Out, I agree that RR did get a raw deal from the administration but you're right that he "didn't get it". He couldn't put any of the ingredients together properly to cook up a defense even though the recipe is obvious to any coach...so he would not have achieved the success Brady Hoke has this year. But I was in his corner in spite of taking shit from most of my class of '71 mates so I wish him well.
The same old questions arise whenever you see Rich as a head coach talking about the team. Is he about the program and the players or about what Rich can do to further his genius label leading the program? Huge difference as far as the tone and culture.
That question always spoke to his inability to connect with the players and to get them to really want to win for him.
You obviously didn't read the book.
Huh? What are you even talking about? Jeebus if we're ranking coach egos RR was probably in the bottom half of the B1G, let alone the SEC.
By all accounts his players at Michigan - at least the ones willing to work hard - loved the guy and he loved them back.
Hi, I'm Nate Volk, and I irrationally hate Rich Rodriguez. To further my hate of him, I make patently false generalizations in order to continually make him look like a total monster. Oh, and please don't ask me about anything relating to Three & Out, because I didn't read it, mostly because it was purposely slanted in RR's direction and I hate that man with all my being.
#114 in defense. Anything RR does there next year will be an improvement.
I was a Michigan fan. Starting today, I am an Arizona fan.
If you want to know the REAL TRUTH about what happened to the great Rich Rodriguez at Michigan, I highly reccomend reading John U. Bacon's new book, "Three and Out." If you don't have the time, here's a summary (I'll be as brief as possible without leaving important information out):
...It all starts with the coaching search. The first choice of Bill Martin (our former athletic director) and the search committee he assembled was Iowa's Kirk Ferentz. That's who Bo Schembechler said he wanted before he died, and as a result, that's who Lloyd Carr and the rest of the Michigan family wanted (Bo was a very, very powerful man here). So Ferentz was reached out to, he agreed to come, and the papers were ready to be signed. But Mary Sue Coleman (the school president) vetoed the hire. Before she came to Michigan, she was the president at Iowa, and she hated Kirk Ferentz because his players got into so much trouble there. This was the first curveball of the search process; and not including Mary Sue Coleman in the search comittee was the first of many mistakes made by Bill Martin.
...The second choice of Bill Martin and the search committee was L.S.U.'s Les Miles. Miles was reached out to, he agreed to come (after finishing his national championship season), and the papers were ready to be signed. But Lloyd Carr vetoed the hire (I guess he had enough influence to do so). Before he died, for reasons that are still debated (I can explain in detail, if requested), Bo Schembechler made Lloyd Carr promise him that Les Miles would never be the head coach at Michigan. This was the second curveball of the search process; and not including Lloyd Carr in the search committee was the second of many mistakes made by Bill Martin.
...The third choice of Bill Martin and the search committee was Rutgers' Greg Schiano. He was reached out to, he agreed to come, and the papers were ready to be signed. But once Greg Schiano learned that his assistants were actually going to have to take a PAY CUT to come to Michigan, he renegged. This was the third curveball of the search process; and not recognizing the value of assistant coaches was the third of many mistakes made by Bill Martin.
...Bill Martin and the search committee had no idea what to do at this point and couldn't agree on a fourth candidate (Jim Harbaugh was never considered as a real candidate, in either search, due to negative remarks he made about the schools academic policies for athletes). So, Lloyd Carr decided to handle things himself. He wanted to hire Mike DeBord (his offensive coordinator), Ron English (his defensive coordinator), or Brady Hoke (his former assistant head coach). But Bill Martin and the search committee agreed that none of these candidates were high-profile enough. So, Lloyd reached out to a high-profile candidate that Bo Schembechler admired - Rich Rodriguez. Lloyd sold the idea to Bill Martin and the search committee, and the papers were signed.
...Then the real trouble began. There were two major problems. I'll start with the simpler problem. Bill Martin (one of the greatest penny-pinchers in the history of college sports) wouldn't give Rich enough money to lure Jeff Kasteel, his long-time defensive coordinator, away from West Virginia. In fact, Bill Martin wouldn't give Rich enough money to lure any of the defensive coordinators he wanted. So, Rich was instead forced to hire a cheap defensive coordinator he didn't want (Scott Shafer), and then another the next season (Greg Robinson). The results clearly speak for themselves. In contrast, Dave Brandon (our new athletic director) gave Brady Hoke $1,000,000 a season to hire Baltimore Ravens defensive coordinator Greg Mattison. Those results also clearly speak for themselves.
...Now the more complicated problem. Lloyd Carr (who became our assistant athletic director after he retired as head coach) wanted Rich to retain all of his assistants when he arrived (...to run the spread option!?!?). Rich interviewed all of Lloyd's assistants and decided to retain only one. This INFURIATED Lloyd and the Michigan football family. Lloyd and his friends wanted Rich out before he ever coached a single game. They wanted a "real Michigan man" to be their head coach. So, they went into full-on sabotage mode (I know it sounds crazy, but trust me, it's very, very true).
...Immediately, funding from alumni clubs dropped drastically. NFL alumni started saying their high schools and "Lloyd Carr's Michigan" in their player introductions. Former players across the board publicly ripped Rich in the media. High school coaches that Lloyd and his friends knew started encouraging their players not to go to Michigan. Former players that were in some way connected to recruits started telling them not to go to Michigan. And worst of all, Lloyd's people in the athletic department repeatedly leaked false information to the press...leading to a two year - recruiting class killing - NCAA investigation (which ultimately concluded that Rich wasn't counting 15 minutes of pre-practice stretch time towards the total number of practice hours). Eventually, Lloyd and his friends got their wish. Rich was fired. Brady Hoke was hired.
...Rich Rodriguez had EVERYTHING going against him here. He was completely sabotaged by those he was working for. And he still managed to put together one of the most prolific offenses in the country. Now that his players have an actual defensive coordinator, they're projected to play in a BCS bowl game.
If we did not have a "real defensive coordinator" from 2008-2010, whose fault is that? I don't understand how people talk about RR like he was our offensive coordinator only. I mean, if you want to think of him as basically a glorified OC, I don't necessarily disagree - but the fact is, he was accountable for the entire program, not just the offense - and he was very bad at many aspects of running it.
He could have done more to fight for Casteel to come join him, and in hindsight should have. However, given that Casteel was Rodriguez's first choice and turned him down because he wouldn't have gotten paid enough, Bill Martin and Michigan are also at fault.
Why is Jeff Casteel apparently the only defensive coordinator in the country that Rich Rodriguez can co-exist with? Why can't he work with another DC? If he really can't do so with anyone else, that's a huge problem.
I cheer for the program, not the coach.
Man I wish Rich Rod luck. He will do well there. But after watching the press conference, I am glad that Hoke is coaching Michigan.
How on earth did Brady Hoke get such a reputation for conducting brilliant press conferences? Brady Hoke may be a good coach, and a good guy. I have no reason to doubt either one. But I cannot think of a single brilliant thing that Brady Hoke has done, or said in a press conference.
On the all-time ranking of coaches who were brilliant in dealing with the press, Brady Hoke must be somewhere around #200. He is relentlessly good at repeating the customary boring, uninformative, noncommittal, coach-speak truisms.
Where does this business of Brady Hoke blowing everybody away with his press conference appearances come from?
Does this mean his son de-committed from Michigan?