OT: Roger Clemens Indicted
Perjury charges from his testimony in front of congress. Pretty much it will be proven either Clemens is clean (never used PEDs) or that MacNamee is right and Clemens used - and then lied about it to congress.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5476761
Formerly (and other baseball fans) I'd love to hear your take on this. I don't know how I feel about the general feeling on steroids. I feel like people who admitted wrongdoing (think Pettite) were given complete reprieve and Standing Ovations, while people who deny it (Bonds, Clemens), especially those who are assholes in general (bonds, clemens) are made villains.
Thoughts?
August 19th, 2010 at 1:49 PM ^
He very transparently commited a felony because he is too big a douche to have bad things said about him. Clemens deserves this.
August 19th, 2010 at 1:55 PM ^
The only thing he stood to lose by telling Congress the truth was his untarnished image. He chose instead to lie for the sake of perepetuating an already known to be false lie.
He deserves the punishment meted out. He's a scumbag.
August 19th, 2010 at 1:49 PM ^
I don't know how I feel about the general feeling on steroids.
I don't know how to tell you how to feel about a feeling. I want to think that I can try to make you feel a feeling about a feeling, but I can't want to not try too hard enough that you won't not be able to do it on your own.
August 19th, 2010 at 1:58 PM ^
I dont do that whole words thing good
August 19th, 2010 at 2:03 PM ^
Right back at ya, Ben.
A Jeep saved my life once. Be(e)n itching for another one ever since.
August 19th, 2010 at 2:10 PM ^
that was originally designed as a military vehicle. I've been rear ended twice (once in my current jeep, once in the old one). The one it looked like someone hit it with a sledgehammer (and did about $4k worth of damage to the Dodge Ram that hit me) and the other time the guy hit me straight on from the back, couldn't find where he hit me (Spare tire) and broke his bumper on my jeep. My jeep was recently demoted (promoted?) to Toy status, i bought a real car... it's a lot of fun to have on the side when I don't have to drive it daily/highway/pay for gas all the time
August 19th, 2010 at 3:59 PM ^
I keep hearing rumors they are going to bring the clean diesel JK to the US market (currently only sold in Europe), but then they don't. That would get us more like 25 - 30 mpg, and up the towing capacity to 7000 lbs. Not to mention hauling diesel in jerry cans is safer than gasoline.
August 19th, 2010 at 2:35 PM ^
You mean, you don't do them "well".
;)
August 19th, 2010 at 2:40 PM ^
(best i found quickly on google images)
August 19th, 2010 at 1:50 PM ^
About damn time.
August 19th, 2010 at 1:51 PM ^
But perjury is very hard to prove and if he gets off on the perjury charge people will take it as a vindication on the steroids/hgh use, so this might turn out to be the best thing that could have happened for him. Personally, I hope he goes down.
August 19th, 2010 at 1:51 PM ^
Were there Thin Mints and Tagalongs at the deposition?
August 19th, 2010 at 1:52 PM ^
and i hate lieing under oath ...
but more than that i hate when the government sticks its head into sports
August 19th, 2010 at 3:30 PM ^
if the sports would police themselves, the feds wouldn't need to step in. They may be sports, but they are also very large businesses.
Kick out the cheaters you know about, actually test to catch the ones you don't, no one will have a problem. But Major League sports make too much money from the "product" that they won't do anything that hurts the "brand," just like any other business would.
August 19th, 2010 at 6:25 PM ^
but this is not the place, we talk sports here ...
so i will just say our gov't has more important issues than trying to figure out if a has been baseball player juiced
August 19th, 2010 at 1:55 PM ^
This is very petty behavior on the part of an individual prosecutor who wants to see his name in the paper. There is no real proof here that Clemens did steroids or hgh. The "evidence" is tainted at best and manufactured at worst.
Is Clemens a pompous ass? Yes. Should a Grand Jury waste its time on him over whose word to accept? No.
August 19th, 2010 at 2:16 PM ^
Isn't one of the main purposes of a trial to bring all the evidence out into the sunlight so people can examine it? Unlike you, some of us haven't seen the evidence yet.
August 19th, 2010 at 1:56 PM ^
hate someone who has golden pipes like this?
August 19th, 2010 at 1:57 PM ^
Ask Alex Rodriguez and Mark Maguire whether admitting to steroid use had effects, as both will probably miss out on the hall of fame for that. For Pettite, I think he is full of BS that he only used for a brief time, but he was smart enough not to lie to people about taking it and taking the moral high ground.
Being a baseball fan, I kinda like the fact that people who were caught using are getting busted, as it allows people who haven't been associated with steroids and have been doing things the right way and have flew under the radar to be celebrated. Ken Griffey Jr., Frank Thomas, and Jim Tomme (sp) will all be first ballett HOF as there stats are great, yet clean
August 19th, 2010 at 2:05 PM ^
How do we know who did or did not do steroids? Do we give players the benefit of the doubt?
August 19th, 2010 at 2:20 PM ^
We will never know who did and didn't use. So make up your own rules about whether to give players the benefit of the doubt or not. But, for those players for whom it can be proven, they should not be let off the hook simply because we cannot prove it against everyone. A bunch of players cheated and some got away with it and some got caught. This happens every day to "regular" people and baseball players making millions of dollars should not get a pass.
August 19th, 2010 at 3:24 PM ^
Certain players scream steroids...Pudge Rodriguez, A-Rod, etc...(players who posted incredible numbers that don't agree with their age or career numbers) and these players have been implicated in one of the many leaks. Players like Griffey, who doesn't have the body of a steroid user, or the out of place stats, seem clearly immune to the steroids label, and are to be trusted. We the fans don't know who did steroids, but people in those clubhouses definetly know who do/did them on their team, as well as other teams. When those people say certain players are clean, I think it is safe for us fans to believe they are clean. For people who do steroids, look at who Jose conseco fingered, as most he did finger have been found guilty
August 19th, 2010 at 2:06 PM ^
When he was referring to the steroids issue. He said those that use steroids are directly stealing from me. They are making my numbers inflated and making theirs look fantastic while cheating. They are taking money from him with higher contracts and causing him to get lower yearly salary because of it.
Anyone found cheating or that directly admits it should be forced to pay a penalty and distributed around the league to other players that didn't cheat.
August 19th, 2010 at 2:12 PM ^
The real loser is baseball and many fans. Between the drugs and free agency (who will the damned Yankees buy this week) has largely caused me to lose my love for a sport that used to represent something special. Clemens is a small piece of the problem - perjury gets them every time, almost.
August 19th, 2010 at 2:46 PM ^
I'm not certain I can rule any player out of having used steriods ever. I'd bet that a HOF'er or two has used it, even the ones we've all loved. I don't have to like Roger's public persona, but I'm sure he's not a total scum bag. I've seen him around his family during his time with the Astros, and while coaching a game against his son (Koby) some years back.
I have no beef with him. If he lied under oath, it is what it is. Plenty of better people have probably done the same thing with half the villany people here attribute to Roger.
As to hould he be a HOF'er? I think so. I don't doubt that at any point in his career, up to half the batters he faced might have been on some sort of now banned substance. So if he was on something, it's just a level playing field of the day. Now that things are screened more effectively, look at the way pitching is coming back. When was the last time we saw this many no-hitters/perfect games in a season? No one can tell me that isn't at least one small by-product of medical screening.
Public persona isn't enough for me to damn someone. The bigger picture is more important. You didn't see me jumping for joy that USC was "busted" either for the same reason. It was good for the NCAA to actually enforce the rules, just like it was good for them to enforce the rules at Michigan. I feel not better or worse for USC than Michigan, Roger Clemens than David Eckstein than Alex Rodriguez than Justin Verlander. Testing has been good for baseball, and I consider the last era tainted in nearly every corner, but that shouldn't exclude anyone from the Hall.
August 19th, 2010 at 3:45 PM ^
If it can be proven that a player cheated, his records should be stricken and he should not be in the HOF. You cannot tell me that if you were a HOF player (say Hank Aaron) that you would think it was right that several players who admitted to cheating in a way that clearly improved their ability to hit surpassed you and took your records and were admitted to the HOF.
For players we just suspect, it is a different story. In this country, we generally assume people are innocent until proven guilty and baseball is not important enough in my mind to warrant a change in that fundamental principal. But if you admitted cheating or it is proven you cheated, then you cheated. You did not play the game within the rules. It is like a penalty in football. The play does not count. And neither should these players' accomplishments because they are artificial.
Maybe some of them would have accomplished enough to get into the HOF without cheating and maybe they wouldn't. But we will never know and it is their fault we will never know. I am far more concerned with respecting and honoring the accomplishments of Hank Aaron than those of steroid-enhanced Mark McGuire.
August 19th, 2010 at 4:38 PM ^
I personally think all confirmed steroid users should have their individual awards stripped (cy youngs, MVPs etc.) olympics style, and their team's records asterisked. Look at the best pitcher of that era IMO, Greg Maddux, he's the case and point that you didn't need 'roids to be one of the best. Baseball needs to acknowledge what happen and learn from it while not forgetting it. By letting records, awards, championships that have been tainted with cheaters go unmarked, you are giving them a free pass.
It's only a matter of time before Bond's home run record is struck from the record books, and god forbid A-Rod hits his #756 in a place other than new york, or else all hell will break loose (especially in ATL).
August 19th, 2010 at 8:04 PM ^
+1 for recognizing Greg Maddux as the best pitcher of the era.
August 19th, 2010 at 3:22 PM ^
who uses steroids in baseball (or any sport). If they come forward and admit it before being caught I give them a little respect back. If they admit it after they are caught, I feel they've at least done the right thing by admitting it. If they lie about and get caught in the lie I lose all respect for them. If they arrogantly lie about and act like a-holes (Bonds, Clements) I consider them dead.
August 19th, 2010 at 3:24 PM ^
Just want to know when we are going to make it a crime for congress to lie to us????
August 19th, 2010 at 3:36 PM ^
--my two favorite players most of my post-little league life were Roger Clemons and Barry Bonds.
damnit