OT - Reshaping Ivy League Basketball

Submitted by sadeto on

Interesting article in the NY Times about the increasing competitiveness of Ivy League basketball in programs other than Princeton and Penn: 

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/07/sports/ncaabasketball/harvard-and-yal…

Why is Tommy Amaker having such (relative) success in the Ivy League, so quickly? Lower overall level of competition? The increased level of talent available to Harvard (and others) since they expanded their tuition waiver policy for low-income families? Is he a very good coach, but not quite at a level needed for success in the B1G? All of the above? 

PeteM

March 7th, 2014 at 10:16 AM ^

I think Tommy's always been a solid recruiter -- he brought in Horton, both Harrises, Deshawn and Epke Udoh when he was here.  None were Trey Burke, but they were better than average B10 players.

My impression is that by Ivy League standards he is an elite recruiter.  I went to a Harvard-Cornell game in Cambridge a couple of years ago (a fun experience, more like a big high school game environment than the B10, if anyone reading this gets out there), and a couple of his guys just looked phyiscally dominant.  I understand thathe has a top 100 player coming in this year, and competes for players against major conferences.

I'm happy for Tommy.  Beilein is clearly a huge improvement, but Tommy came here at a tough time and left the program better than he found it.

Hugh White

March 7th, 2014 at 4:41 PM ^

Amaker is indeed a decent recruiter.

Through good fortune, Amaker was also given a boost by the Jeremly Lin phenomenon.  When Amaker arrived on campus, Lin was already there, and his 30-point showing against UCONN helped several recruits on the fence feel like there was a program on the rise that they could fit into.

A few years later when Linsanity exploded, Amaker could use Lin as an example for recruits: it is at least possible to sign at Harvard, and end up finding a role in the NBA. That possibility, even if it is a small one, helped Amaker land a Top-100 recruit in this year's Freshman class (Zena Edosomwan). 

readyourguard

March 7th, 2014 at 10:31 AM ^

I was thinking about this just yesterday.  Obviously, Amaker knows basketball - he's been around it his entire life.  He's a likeable guy and seems to be very polished. However, that doesn't necessarily translate to success at the highest level.  There are countless examples of former players who failed at the D1 level, only to thrive at the next step down.  Coaches at the major conference/D1 level are the best of the best (at least those that have been on the job for more than 3 or 4 years).  Amaker probably isn't on that level, but he's capable of holding his own at a place like Harvard.  Good for him.  I wish guys like him would embrace the school they're at, continue to succeed, and stay there their entire career. 

sadeto

March 7th, 2014 at 11:35 AM ^

Right, now they officially call it FCS, though the Ivies don't participate in the FC for some reason. 

That's probably the source of the confusion, because they are off in their own little world in football, nobody realizes they participate in D1 in basketball and hockey. Maybe other sports too. 

WolvinLA2

March 7th, 2014 at 6:37 PM ^

Most schools that are division 1, are so in all sports.  There are some exceptions, but not many.  Some sports don't have D2 (like hockey) so a lot of the D2 schools, like Ferris State, play D1 hockey.  But typically you are in one division for all sports.  

FCS is still D1.  Football is the only sport who split D1 into two subdivision, but they are all considered D1 schools.  The poster above who said "they are not D1, they are 1-AA" in wrong.  Not because 1-AA no longer exists, but because what it became, FCS, is still D1.

cheesheadwolverine

March 7th, 2014 at 10:38 AM ^

I'm a grad student at Harvard and vaguely follow Harvard basketball.  My understanding is that around the time Amaker was hired the administration started to relax their admissions standards for basketball players.  They are still around the same as the rest of the Ivy League, but they used to be higher.  It might be worth noting the hockey program has really gone downhill in the same period perhaps becase the university has used more marginal admits on basketball rather than hockey.  Also I think you are right to finger the increase in financial aid since the Ivy League doesn't do athletic scholarships.

There is a lot more talent (more accurately AAU/other opportunities for talent development) than there was 30 years ago, so all of mid-major college basketball is getting more competitive.  There used to only be enough talent to fill Penn/Princeton with legit D-I players.

Finally I think Amaker is a pretty good coach.  He had success at Seton Hall, and his recruiting at UM was quite good considering the hole we were in from sanctions/Ellerbe.

jmblue

March 7th, 2014 at 3:09 PM ^

At Seton Hall, Amaker went 15-15, 15-15, 22-10 and 16-15.  He basically parlayed one good season into the Michigan job.  Altogether, in his 10 years at high-D1 schools, he had two winning conference seasons.  At the time we fired him, I don't think anyone (other than Jay Bilas - *drumroll*) could have predicted that he'd turn his next school into a conference powerhouse.  

 

 

Mlaw2010

March 7th, 2014 at 10:53 AM ^

It's a combination of a few things.  Harvard relaxed its admission standards for basketball players when Amaker got there.  He has thus been able to bring in sevearl athletes that are not "Harvard caliber."  Additionally, the Ivy League has recently adopted a rule that allows its schools to offer grants that cover all of a student athlete's costs.  They're not scholarships, but they're scholarships.  Previously, the amount of a student athlete's grant was need-based. 

There are also several stories of Amaker walking a very fine line when it comes to recruiting violations.  There have been numerous reports of "bumping" and a story about a prospective assistant coach "randomly" showed up to a playground where a prospect was playing.  The coach played some pickup with the kid, talked to him about Harvard, and Amaker hired the assistant soon after that interaction.

Also, don't forget about the academic scandal that hit Harvard last year.

Amaker's done a good job there, but I'm not so sure it's entirely above board.

PeteM

March 7th, 2014 at 12:30 PM ^

I don't know much about the reports regarding meeting up with recruits improperly (I do remember a NY Times article about it but don't know what became of it), but as I recall nothing really came of it.

From what I understand the academic scandal wasn't a "basketball" scandal.  Half the students in a 279 person class were accused of improperly cooperating.  A few of those students were players.

If Tommy were dirty I don't think he'd of survived in Michigan in the early/mid 2000s.  We were too much in the NCAA spotlight.

Section 1

March 7th, 2014 at 11:09 AM ^

...showing us what collegiate athletics ought to be.  Real student-athletes.

But seeing the tensions with Amaker (whom I always liked) and Harvard and the Ivy League, competitively, demonstrates just how hard it is to maintain a world of student-athleticism when the pressure is to cut corners on academics and study time.

I say for the umpteenth time: if you are ever at an event where David Brandon is speaking (alumni groups, U of M Club meetings, Victors Club functons) ask him what he is doing, this year, in connection with other AD's, to reduce costs and spending on athletics.  It's a question that could well be put to all of higher education, but that's for another forum.  I'd like to hear an entire speech from Brandon on the subject of the future of Michigan's Athletic Department budget.  Will the budget always continue to expand?  If so, where is the money going to come from?

Section 1

March 7th, 2014 at 12:51 PM ^

...than all of licensing.  And (this is amazing to me) bigger than all of television contract revenues.

The University of Michigan Athletic Department owes more, in other words, to season ticket holders, Victors Club members and loyal alumni-donors, than any revenue source you named.

We are owed an explanation; what do we get, for our ever-increasing prices for tickets and seat licenses?  I don't see anything.  Sure, we compete with the Ohio States and the Alabamas and the Notre Dames.  And they are all spending more.  It is an arms race.  To what end?  I could not possibly care less about the NFL, or producing NFL-ready players.  All I want is the traditional spectacle of college football.

I'd rather not participate in anything that looks like NFL Jr.  A tv contract is meaningless to me, as a season-ticket holder.  Merchandising is a silly sidelight.  TV and merchandising might interest me, if it meant holding down ticket prices and PSD's.  But it doesn't seem to work that way.  I'm paying for an arms race with other schools, to produce a "product" I'm not so sure I even like all that much.

 

sadeto

March 7th, 2014 at 1:27 PM ^

That is amazing to me, too. I'm not a season-ticket holder (I live in NY), so the impact on me is limited to whatever indirect cost I pay to the Big Ten Network. The UConn game last September was the first game I was able to go to in 20 years. Can't wait to see what it's like to visit Rutgers.

But I hear you and agree with the arms race analogy. As I said, it's not going to burst any time soon. Not as long as there are lot of relatively wealthy and dedicated alumnae who want to see UM win. 

 

hirschmo

March 7th, 2014 at 11:34 AM ^

I'm a senior at Harvard, and lifelong Michigan fan so it's been great to see what Amaker has done with the program.



His successes first and foremost come

From recruiting. Amaker is able to sell kids and their parents on playing competitive D1 basketball while getting a world class education (the Michigan of the east, as a shirt I wear reads). Our squad now plays almost solely 3 star players with offers to places such as Oregon, cal, vandy, northwestern, etc. He recently had signed a couple of 4 stars as well.



The results are both funny at times, and satisfying as a Michigan fan. Amaker runs a Princeton offense so he can limit possessions and hopefully get his team good shots. The strategy is crucial when trying to pull off huge upsets (like last year's first round tourney win vs New Mexico) as it gives teams with higher talent levels fewer opportunities to score in a slower game.



As a home fan, and one who roots for Ivy League titles, this strategy and Amaker's coaching style can be excruciating at times. With 3 and even 4 star talent on the court, our squad can look like the Monstars (space Jam reference) against a lot of lesser the Ivy League opponents. Yet Amaker's Princeton offense is sooo slow paced, and our team packs it in so much on defense, that games are usually won 59-52. Not exactly fun to watch.



I do really like Amaker for a number of reasons: 1. He is exceptionally nice towards students at the school (even sent over an appetizer when a a couple friends and I told him we were big fans of the team and loud as hell in the student section). 2. He didn't recruit spike (took another pg named Siani Chambers who is also very good...but no one is spike). 3. I only have to watch his Princeton offense at home games as away games aren't televised. 4. We landed probably the perfect hire at the time...all hail Coach B.



Go blue

Hugh White

March 7th, 2014 at 4:54 PM ^

While Amaker's Crimson does indeed play a ball-control game, I am not sure that "games are usually won 59-52" is a fair characterization.  This year's Crimson has outscored opponents by 13.5 ppg, and won nine games by 20 points, five games by 30 and one game by 40.  Its last outing was 80-47 over Columbia. 

http://gocrimson.com/sports/mbkb/2013-14/releases/20140306axp89g

 

Regarding away games not being televised, you're in luck -- NBC-Soprts has Harvard at Yale at 7:30 tonight.

 

MGlobules

March 7th, 2014 at 1:31 PM ^

a pretty good coach. I am the biggest Coach Beilein homer in the world--think he is a future hall-of-famer. But if Tommy had been given a new arena (etcetera) here, the team would have continued to get more wins. He entered in a tough spot and brought the school to a better place. 

A lot of the people who ragged on Tommy were also ragging on Jordan Morgan and other players not long ago. Hell, Trey Burke caught plenty of hell from near-sigted people, too, even going into the second half of last season. It's fascinating to think--for example--about the fact that both Amaker and Beilein are fairly mild-mannered guys; people got down on both for that reason. . . but screamers also tend to be burnt-out cases before long. 

SDCran

March 7th, 2014 at 2:34 PM ^

I think he is a solid D1 coach. He recruited pretty well at Michigan for the first few years and the last one ( a couple of brutal years toward the end). I always thought he suffered from some exceptionally bad luck. LA was always hurt, Chris Hunter had a number of injuries, Horton was out one B1G season. I think it was the Ba game, they went I to to MSU missing 3-4 starters one year ( and I am pretty sure MSU fans count that as a win)

Hugh White

March 7th, 2014 at 4:20 PM ^

My recommendation is that you stop wondering about Harvard basketball and watch them on National Television tonight.  NBC-Sports Network is carrying the Harvard-Yale Game tonight at 7:30 Eastern, and the Crimson, having already clinched a share of the Conference championship, will be playing for the outright, and a ticket to dance.

I think what you see on NBC-Sports tonight, with level-of-competition filters presumed, will feel strangely familiar.  They have a Cousey-finalist at point, a pair of Centers who tag-team responsibility for glass and rejections, and a Canadian Three-Point Specialist who went 6 of 8 from deep in his last outing, in an 80-47 drubbing to clinch a share of the conference. 

Yes, I said Canadian Three-Point Specialist.  (But he really is just a shooter.)    

 

Princetonwolverine

March 7th, 2014 at 9:42 PM ^

Harvard beat Yale 70-58 and won their 4th straight Ivy League title. They are the 1st team in the NCAA tournament. Hope we don't face them