Are you crazy?
to play football, not to play trumpet
Are you crazy?
That's why I said "I don't know." It's all there, in the literature...
Agreed on Babcock. Also Semin is not a defenseman so he can't replace Nick or Rafalski.
Nash is completely out of the question if you ask me. We would need I trade for him and unless Detroit is going to give up on Franzen, Filpulla, and Kindl or Smith then Columbus wouldn't trade...especially to a team in the division.
I see Detroit going after Parise, Suter, possibly Weber, Semin, Jackman, Wideman, and Gaustad. They obviously won't get them all but those are the players I see them inquiring about.
IMO I see Detroit landing Suter and Parise both. I feel very confident about it for some reason.
Semin can fill any hole.
That's what AllWeNeedisHoke said
Exactly. My pipe dream has babs taking over for Red.
Babs might be hanging around till his kid is in college. He's said before he wants his kid to go to/play hockey at college rather than the juniors.
There is a lot about this all over the interwebs.
Parise and Suter, hopefully added.
Stuart, gone to Sharks.
Hudler, bye bye.
Hello Smith, Nyquist. Possibly Tatar, this leading to either emmerton or mursak possibly being traded to clear room.
I would love to see u.f.a. D from wisconsin who won't sign with the ducks heavily pursued. Think another Smith or better in skill. Name is Schultz.
Just a tidbit on Stuart. From my understanding, he's only gone if he's going to play for the Sharks. Some other West Coast teams might be able to lure him, but that move is just so he can be near his family. However, from what I've read and heard, he's only likely to move if the Sharks come calling.
Wings WILL NOT PURSUE.
He's a rfa.
Signing him would cost the wings like 3 first round draft picks. Don't have the table available, but it would kill the draft for years, due to cba.
I think it's 4 1 rd picks although for Weber if you knew you could get him it would almost be worth it.
1. It depends on what your definition of "physical skater" is. Rick Nash is a big guy, but he's also a prolific goal scorer on a horrible team. Traditionally, your "checking lines" are your third and fourth lines, with the top six forwards out there to put the puck in the net. I don't think anyone argues that our defense is physical enough, they just can't handle the puck in their own zone sometimes *coughKindlcough*. I don't think they need to seek out a checking forward for the sake of having a checking forward.
2. The names on everyone's short list are Ryan Suter and Zach Parise. With the Devils' (and to a lesser extent, the Preds') deep run in the playoffs, luring those guys away will be harder than we thought. As far as Suter goes, he's apparently in extension talks with Nashville, who really wants to lock him down before the start of free agency. If he doesn't sign an extension before the free agency period, expect the Wings to throw an exorbitant contract offer at him. Parise is more of an enigma, just because his team is still playing. He won't touch on his contract or free agency until the off-season. I will say that he has played good, but not great, hockey for the Devils during the playoffs. Get Rick Nash out of your head, though. He's still under contract, so the Jackets are trying to trade him. In order to pick him up, you'd probably have to ship two or three starting players and a few draft picks, and nobody is worth that much.
3. Suter is your best/flashiest bet to step into the lineup. There is also a young defenseman in L.A. whose name escapes me that might be worth kicking the tires on. Even if you only sign one off-season defenseman (and assuming Stuart leaves like everyone thinks he will), you'll still have Kronwall/Ericsson/Kindl/Quincey/Smith. With Suter in there, that's not a bad blue line at all.
4. He's not going anywhere, and nor should he.
5. Honestly, you're just butthurt. You don't fire a coach when he gets you to the playoffs every season. Look what happened to the Pistons after they fired Larry Brown when he took them to four straight conference finals.
6. Look for one of Hudler, Franzen, Filppula, and Abdelkader to get shipped in a mid-to-high-level trade. If they sign more than one defenseman, you could see Ericsson, Kindl, or Smith get moved as well. I'd love to see them ship Zetterberg for two or three players, but his contract makes that somewhat prohibitive.
Puck daddy reported that Suter was offered a massive package last week by Nashville, but he has yet to sign. Honesty I think that is a sign he wants to test free agency.
Larry Brown was only with the Pistons for two seasons. The Pistons went to 6 straight ECF with 3 different coaches. And Larry Brown had to be let go because he's a nutcase.
Don't forget about Ian White. He still has one more year. With Suter, you could leave Kindl or Smith in Grand Rapids. With the late addition of Qunicey last season, I don't know that the blue line really needs much more than a top 2 guy like Suter would be. With that, your point about trading a D-man in point 6 makes a little more sense... especially if by some chance Stuart doesn't sign in SJ. If things all work in the Wings favor and we have Suter/White, Kronwall/Stuart, Ericsson/Quincey, that would be just fine with me. I would think Ericsson and Kindl would be on the block before Smith though imo.
And I agree with all your points following. White's existence makes either Ericsson or Kindl expendable. Personally, I'd love to see Kindl go because he seems to be good for at least one boneheaded turnover per game, but I know a lot of people think that Big E has jumped the shark.
A realistic defense looks like Suter/White, Kronwall/Quincey, Ericsson/Kindl/Smith. I'm all right with that.
Quinceys also terrible. E, kindl, and Quincey are turnover machines.
Interesting question about Babcock. I thought that his greatest strength from '07 through '09 was his ability to get extremely hard work and discipline out of a team that was already good enough to win lots of games just on sheer talent. The past few years, that hasn't happened. The decline actually started somewhat in the '08-'09 regular season. I think that the team is tough enough, but they don't look hungry. The Wings are also finally suffering the inevitable consequences of trading away first rounders and drafting at the bottom every year for almost two decades.
To be honest, I want d-men like Ryan Suter and Jack Johnson (even though he's under contract). Big, physical, have booming slapshots to replace a pretty good one in Nick.
I also think we could get a good forward in exchange for Franzen. He's worn out his welcome.
Jimmy still have time to prove himself. Let's put more pieces in place in front of him.
I think that you might be overreacting with Franzen. He's injury prone, but also the most timely goal scorer the franchise has ever had.
One clutch goal shouldn't protect you. Only consistent play should be considered. Even when he is healthy he will disappear for weeks.
Franzen hasn't shown up for 3 straight postseasons now and has been very streaky in the regular season as well. He should definitely be trade bait for any team willing to take his contract
He had six goals in 12 games in 2010.
He had two in 8 games at least partially injured last year.
He didn't show up this one year (but at least he had one goal, something that you can't say about Datsyuk in that shitfest 2006 series against Edmonton). I think that's the sample size that you are talking about. Not enough to draw a long term trend, unless you think that his health issues are a big factor (which they very well might be).
He had six goals in 12 games in 2010
I hate when people try to say this. Yes, he did have 6 goals in 12 games. BUT, 4 of those goals came in Game 4 against the Sharks when we were down 3 games. That's 2 goals in 11 games, which is horrible for a guy making 5 million a year. I'll give you part of the injury year, but it's still 3 straight postseasons that's he has been virtually invisible. We've tried to run/ran goaltenders out of town for not performing after a couple postseasons, yet we're giving Franzen a free pass. I'm not saying we ship him out to the first buyer, but definitely float him around, and see what's out there
I think you just responded to overreactions with an overstatement. To get something good, you have to give up something good. If trading Franzen plus prospects nets us a better player, I'm all for it. He is inconsistent and not a franchise player, but still very good when he is on. If he's The Mule, why can't we ride him? If we're going to trade for a guy like Nash, Franzen is probably the guy we're going to have to give up and that's fine with me.
They lost too many battles on the boards. They were always second to puck on dump ins on the defense to avoid hits
Untouchable players should be:
Everyone else should be on the table.
Why Franzen? Honestly his play has been disappointing to say the least especially in the playoffs when he will disappear for stretches.
Agreed. He's actually tops on my list of guys to move.
Bertuzzi should be on the untouchable list. Hes been very consistent.
Bertuzzi is valuable on his shootout ability alone. In this day and age, a guy who is good at the shootout can literally be the difference in a few points in the standings.
Re: point #1 - I think this has less to do with big, physical teams that hit and more with the parity that now exists in the league thanks to the salary cap. Gone are the days of the 2002 Wings who could just steamroll people. Seriously, go look up that roster.
when I have shitty days, or when I'm watching the Tigers. I remember what it was like to just own everyone.
...but our salary payroll was actually only $64.7M. The new cap is estimated to be $70M. Just to put things in perspective
True, but that was also a decade ago. How did our payroll compare to the rest of the league that year?
Ship franzen out trade hudlers rights. Hell send them both to Nashville for webers rights.
Weber isn't going anywhere. Nashville will give him 11 mil a year before they let him go.
I disagree with a few of your points but overall enjoyed your post. A few comments:
1. I don't like it when people try to "model" the team after whoever is in the finals for a given year. When the wings won, people said you need two-way centers and puck possession. When the Pens won, people said you need two scoring superstars. And so on. There are many different styles that win. Don't copy the last guy and think you will magically wind up in the finals.
2. I think the Wings need a premier scorer so for me it's Parise first, then Semin as a fall back. Others might work but those are top 2 targets for me. I would let Huds walk unless he wants to come back without any pay increase. Nash is very unlikely to be realistic for the Wings and I would rather sign guys than trade assets.
3. Agree that the Wings need a #1 or #2 Dman. Too bad the pickings are slim outside of Suter, maybe Schultz (FA from Wisc), Wideman or Carle. Really it's Suter or bust for Plan A.
4. I am fine with Howard. He's maybe not top 5 but I think he is top 15 and perfectly fine to win you a cup if you otherwise have a very good team. And he's relatively cheap for a top 15 goalie.
5. I like Babs and think he is a very good coach. His message may be old right now but I don't see any replacement I like near as much.
6. I would let Huds go, might not sign Quincey if Suter was signed (otherwise you have to I think). Mule I would trade IF I could get back equal value but that's unlikely so I would probably stick with him.
My optimal plan would be to sign Suter, Parise (or Semin) and 1 other borderline 2nd/3rd line forward. Plus a relatively cheap backup goalie.
Bingo. Great post. I think im pretty much with you 100%. I do think Barrett Jackman could be a good pick up to replace Stuart tho.
Franzen was our leading scorer despite being lazy. I don't get why everyone wants to ship him out. I Especially don't get why people suggest trading him for Semin who is just as lazy and not as big of a scoring threat.
No need to trade for Semin. He's a UFA and Washington has said they're not bringing him back
Semin is a gamble and has flaws but he's probably MORE of a goal scorer than Mule, not less of one. He scored 40 goals, Franzen has never done that. Plus Semin is a righty shot, something this team needs.
If C-bus would trade Nash for Franzen, Filpulla, and Kindl i'd pull the trigger. The Wings haven't had a power forward like Nash since Shanahan IMO. I like Franzen, but he isn't as good as Nash. I think Nash would be a very good fit on this team. I believe Filpulla would easily be replaced by one of the young guys, and I'd rather see the team hold on to Hudler, then Filpulla. Hudler showed me way more then Fil did during these playoffs. Hudler got into the dirty areas, while Fil was easily pushed to the outside. He needs space, and his space was easily defended during the playoffs. Fil looked like a different player during the Worlds, but he had way more space.
Weber is not going to happen since he is a RFA. Parise and Suter are very much in play, as long as they don't sign with their current clubs. Holland has said that he will trade for negotiating rights to players they want. Knuble wants to be in Detroit next year, but does Detroit want Knuble? I wouldn't mind seeing him back in the D again. I was hoping he'd be someone they picked up the last time he was available.
Jimmy Howard is fine. He was a Vezina canidate up until he got hurt. IMO Howard is better then Ozzie, and Ozzie was one of my favorites. They need a capable backup. Everyone thought Conklin was going to be that guy last year, but he was far from it. Joey Mac is on a one way next year, so he'll be an option, but his back problems are a big question mark. I don't know who they'll look at there.
"I'd rather see the team hold on to Hudler, then Filpulla."
This I don't understand at all. Filppula had a bad playoffs this year, but so did everyone. He still had as many points as hudler, and half the giveaways, never got pushed down like someone's 10 year old brother, and can skate. Last year Fil outscored Hudler by triple or more in the playoffs and was one of our better players. In a year where the whole team was bad, I will give him a pass until next year before I give up on him.
And we can't do anything with him but sign him. He is UFA, so he can go wherever he wants, we can't include him in a trade. Maybe we can sign him and trade him for Mason Raymond whom Vancouver has been rumored to be moving... yes i know, never going to happen.
Hudler is the exact opposite of everythign the wings need. (my opinion of course.)
Fil is Detroit's second best puck handler and a good skater with a good shot. He's not got the shot hudler has, but at least he will shoot it. And he's not a cancer in the locker room.
Hudler is reported to have a terrible attitude.
Fils and Hudlers stats are pretty comparable acutally. Fil has 20 more points and has played in 32 more games then Hudler. Hudler has 12 goals and 19 assists in 60 games while Fil has 10 and 27 in 61 games ( not included is the 09-10 season). And i seen Fil get pushed around a lot this playoff year. I'm not saying the wings should throw a ton of money at Hudler because they shouldn't, but I don't htink they should let a 25 goal scorer just walk away. As the person who said Hudler has a bad attitude, this is the first i've ever heard of that, and I follow hockey just as much as I do M football. I'd rather see them re-sign Hudler then sign Semin.
And like I said, I'd love to see Nash in a Wings uni. Whether thats siging hudler then trading him and franzen or fil or whatever. IMO if they lose Franzen in a deal to get Nash, and Fil or Hudler or both are packaged with them. I think they can replace Hudler and Fil pretty easily.
Lets play a little bit. Lets say the trade Franzen, Fil, and Hudler for Nash. Sign Parise and pick up Knuble or maybe Ryan Smyth. Would everyone be happy. They have the cash to do that, and hae enough to sign suter.
And I have read it repeatedly on kuklaskorner.com and wingingitinmotown.com
1. You can be physical without throwing a bunch of bone crushing checks. And you can win too, see Wings 4 cups. That said, the Wings were missing a lot of speed and physical play with Cleary, Helm, and Eaves all out of the lineup and a guy like Hudler getting pushed around like a mini mite. I do think the wings will look to add a larger 3-4th line grinder agitator that can skate.
2-3. List starts and ends with Parise and Suter. Thats the dream. If that can't or doesn't happen the Wings will get creative and maybe look to next years class of UFRs.
4. Best bargain in hockey and the reason we can have Hank, Pav, and still be talking about 2 more max(ish) deals. You can win it all with a goalie like him.
5. No coach is 100% safe, but he is close.
6. Deals very rarely work out Veterans for Veterans. You need to get one thing and give another, something both teams think they need. Wings might need a Nash type, but can we give up what columbus needs? That would be young not yet big contract guys like Nyquist, Smith, Kindl, Tatar. They are not going to take guys like Z or Franzen. Huds is not worth a used puck bag and he is an UFA anyway. So I just don't see a trade happening unless we ship out some extra pieces for late round picks, and as of right now we don't have a lot of extra pieces.
Keep your eye on Jason Garrison of the Panthers, the Wisco kid not signed by the Ducks AND the Western Kid., an undrafted FA.
The Western kid went back to school.
Schultz is the kid the ducks can't sign.
Didn't know Dekyper went back, thanks. We will just have to sign him next year. ;-)
1. They do need to get some more physical skaters I believe. IMO they just need someone who is talented enough to stay in the lineup night in and night out. He doesn't have to be a 30 goal scorer, but a guy who will throw his body around and sometimes defend some of our superstars when need be.
2. It would be very nice to get Ryan Suter or Matt Carle. I liked the move last year to get White I think he will turn out to be a Rafalski type, as in being a solid defenseman, but somewhat underrated. I am not sure if there is too much left out there after Suter so maybe a trade to someone, but that is pretty unlikely I feel like and would probably have us on the losing side of a deal.
3. Again Suter would be the leading candidate, but getting him away from Nashville is not going to be easy. Kronwall needs to become the new anchor on the blue line and I think he will. Smith would also be a nice addition next year as well. I honestly think Brendan Smith is better than Ericsson, Kindl, and Quincey and his ceiling is higher than any of those guys at this point.
4. I think Jimmy is good enough to get us a Cup. I would however entertain the idea of dealing Jimmy if we could get someone else like Cory Schneider through a trade or something along those lines, but I don't think Jimmy is a must sell.
5. I don't think Babcock is the reason for our recent poor playoff performances. I think that he is doing a decent job for now especially with all the untimely injuries we have had the last few seasons. The only way I would think about bailing on Babcock was if it was apparent that the players were no longer playing for him and I don't think that is the case right now.
6. I would be able to part with just about anyone at this point besides: Datsyuk, Kronwall, Zetterberg, White, Helm, Eaves, Smith, and Nyquist. I would even possibly entertain ideas for Zetterberg if the deal was good enough. Franzen I think needs to get dealt, you could get rid of Abdelkader, Hudler, Cleary, and/or Filpula, and Ericcson is worthless I hated the deal we signed with him, but most likely if we didn't sign him he would've went somewhere else and played great knowing our luck.
99% of Red Wings fans are miserable failures at life, as evidenced by their same tired argument of "needing to get tougher" and all sorts of ridiculous roster ideas in the wake of a playoff exit.
The Red Wings are fine, the farm system is awesome, and no - they're never going to get as tough as you like. They play hockey, and they're one of the best at it. Sometimes you win, sometimes you dont. The job Holland, Babock and co. have done since the lockout has been remarkable - just look at the roster in 06 compared to now. The parts are constantly shifting, but the priorities remain the same and the results always show the Wings at the top of the league.
Now let's get back to talking about Alexander Semin as a possible replacement for Nick Lidstrom. What a tremendous idea.
I agree with you that the franchise has done a great job of staying in top form despite changes from the lockout and other variables. I'm sure if baseball got a salary cap I don't know if I see teams like the Yankees or Red Sox being contenders after a cap was put in place, but since the salary cap the Wing's have won a Cup, President's trophy, and continually made the playoffs every year you are right we are clearly in great hands. This offseason is potentially the biggest change the Wing's have seen in over a decade however. In my opinion it may have some worried, but really maybe the question we should be asking is what next? This team has always found a way to adapt, but this is a change of scenery for fans young and old and it may be the most uncomfortable most fans have been in a long time.
The truth is a lot of the success we see from other teams is a direct by-product of nits they picked from our philosophy.
I'm very excited to see what the young guys coming up in our organization will do. If guys like Suter and Parise are out there, go after them - but I'd rather not spend 2 or 3 million on a guy whose only advantage over our current crop on the farm is their NHL experience. Detroit is brimming with talent in Grand Rapids and the minors. Given time, this 20 year dynasty we've seen could be extended to 40. Holland knows that, and I'm excited to see what happens.
And let's be honest, the Stanley Cup Finalists are nothing to emulate - the Kings were in the bottom 5 of the league in scoring all year long and scraped into the playoffs. Funny shit happens in a best-of-7 series. That's all you can take from that.
You are definitely right by saying they aren't the teams to emulate. The King's are loaded with talent, but their first half coach was the reason for a poor start and Daryl Sutter has them playing at their full potential. We run an entirely different system than the Kings or Devils. We are puck possession, we dominate the flow of play and pummel the other goalie with quality shots, while not giving up many good scoring chances. The difference IMO from years past is that we did not get the quality scoring chances we needed and the D played horrible down the stretch.
Suter I feel is more a "must have" if you will, more so than Parise. In the last two years we have lost arguably our top 2 Dmen. If we could land Suter we would possibly be in a better situation than the last two years. Suter along with White and Kronwall are still all fairly young and have good NHL experience. Parise is a different story however, he would definitely help us out with depth problems and goal scoring, but it would be a different system for him at first. IMO he is a Helm type player, but more smooth. He is a known goal scorer, but he flies around at 100 MPH and even kills penalties. They would both be huge gets and I also am hoping that guys in like Nyquist and Smith become more household names.
i agree with a lot of what you said, but not the farm system. Or maybe it's just the lack of high draft picks that is catching up with them. Regardless, the Wings are pretty much devoid of young, high end talent. Were this not true, they wouldn't be forced to give ice time to banged up, ineffective veterans like they do nowadays. People are fond of pointing out how the Red Wings like their players "over ripe", but a lot of that philosophy has its roots from the pre-salary cap days when the team always had more star power. Even so, Zetterberg and Datsyuk were easily recognizable as impact players in their early 20s, and Franzen was only four years removed from the draft the year he had 13 playoff goals. I'm not sensing a wave of new blood ready to replace the guys like Homer and Lidstrom. I feel like I'm seeing something akin to the Colorado Avalanche in the last couple of pre-lockout years.
Possibly Mrazek and pulkinen?
Tatar definitely looks top 6 as well.
This is devoid of talent?
hockeysfuture.com and redwingscentral.com
Maybe they can contribute some day, but compare those guys to where Ilya Kovalchuk and Anze Kopitar were when they were the same age (the leading scorers on the two teams in the finals now). If they were legitimate high level talent, then they would have or should have been playing this year when the team was loaded with injuries and looking like utter dogshit. In years past, when the Wings had healthy first ballot hall of famers playing on the second lines, that wasn't the case. Now, we've got guys like Todd Bertuzzi and and a not 100% Dan Cleary.
That's your angle? Well I'm sorry, but you're not gonna find Anze Kopitar or Ilya Kovalchuk in our farm system. Or any farm system, save for them team lucky enough to pick 1st overall.
And newsflash: Hall-of-Famers on your second line don't exist anymore. This is 2012, not 2002 - you'll be lucky to have one on your whole roster.
I'm not asking for a 50 goal scorer, but we don't even have a Woltec Wolski or Paul Stastny in the minors. And it's not like we haven't needed one. For the past three years, when the Wings have experienced a rash of injuries to their forwards and they have desperately needed some young guys to step up, they haven't. When you consider all of the 21 and under players who have had a substantial impact around the league, it's not unreasonable to conclude that if a 21 year old guy can't replace a slumping old Todd Bertuzzi or an injured Dan Cleary, then he's probably not a future All Star. And it's not a great leap to go from there to saying that with all of the team's best players being 27 or older (and many over 30), the future might not be all that bright.
admittedly ignorant about prospects in the Wings system, how do you know we don't have such players being developed? I and another guy have already directed you towards a plethora of kids who are projected to be top-line players in the NHL - certainly on par with a scrub like Wolski.
My guess is you have not researched this very thoroughly, and are thus banking on the results produced by prodigies like Crosby and Stastny to support your argument. It's weak sauce, dude. By and large, players who are 21 in the NHL are extremely raw and hurt the teams they're playing for - even if they're producing points at a decent clip. This isn't rocket science - playing guys that young doesn't prove anything about your organizational depth, it often just means your desperate.
"playing guys that young doesn't prove anything about your organizational depth, it often just means your desperate."
Yup, and the Red Wings were desperate this year at the end of the season. Teams that suck as bad as the Wings did in February, March, and April throw their talent out on the ice even if it's young and not fully developed. Old broken down guys like Tomas Holmstrom (who was a -9 and scored one even strength goal all year long) don't get minutes on a team that has good young talent. But if you want to believe that the fourth liners and healthy scratches on a team that played like the Columbus Blue Jackets for the last third of the season are truly future All Stars and leaders of a Stanley Cup run (because somebody else said so), be my guest.
Nyquist did play. And looked really, really good. Smith was a little bit disappointing, but seems to be on a similar developmental track to Kronwall, who turned out ok.
but compare those guys to where Ilya Kovalchuk and Anze Kopitar were when they were the same age
Are you kidding me? Kovalchuk was the No. 1 Overall pick in the 2001 Draft, and Kopitar was 11th in the 2005 Draft. Of the guys he just listed, here's where they were picked: 121st, 27th, 51st, 141st, 111th, and 60th. Trying to compare them to a No. 1 pick and a 11th pick is a joke. By that logic, I'm going to criticize Justin Abdelkader for sucking. Just look at how what he's done in his career compared to what Sidney Crosby has done in his career
It's not a joke to compare these guys when they play in the same league against each other. These are the guys that we are facing, along with literally dozens of other young, impact guys who have come into the league recently (Kane, Toews, Couture, Giroux, Versteeg, Hornquist, etc, etc). That's the situation that the Wings face.
I'm questioning the overall level of talent in the organization, not the ability of the organization to make the most out of its lack of first rounders and annual crappy drafting positions. It is not my opinion that the organization is poorly run or underachieving. It is my opinion that the organization's future is not very bright, because the past is catching up with it.
Four of those guys you listed were top 10 overall picks (two of them were top 3). When was the last time we had one of those? Versteeg didn't make a big impact until he was like 23. Same with Hornqvist, neither of whom are superstars. Their production is similar to....wait for it.....Filppula. Giroux is the exception, not the norm. It's not like the Flyers and other teams are regularly producing multiple superstars through their farm system every year. Wings minor league system is just fine. Your argument is flawed because the Wings regularly picked late throughout the 90s and look where we were this past decade. Just stop. 99% of NHL players were not impact guys at the age of 20. Let the kids develop and play a little bit before you just assume that they're not top 2 line quality. The joke isn't in you comparing players in the same league. The joke is in you comparing them to guys in our farm system.
Yup, those guys were Top 10 overall picks, and the teams that they are on benefit from it. That's all that matters. The Wings are competing against them.
The Wings picked late throughout the '90s, but won the '02 Cup thanks in large part to a huge payroll. They made the successful transition from that era to this one, thanks mostly to two guys named Datsyuk and Zetterberg. Everyone who disagrees with me openly acknowledges that there is nothing remotely resembling the caliber of those two guys in the organization. Who or what will make the Red Wings a Cup contender five years from now? If we don't have any immediate stars and we probably won't get any more late round first ballot hall of famers, and we don't have anyone under 27 who has shown themselves to be a top two liner yet, then I don't see why it is so unreasonable to think that maybe the Wings will struggle to win a playoff series for the next few years, and maybe even miss the playoffs.
Nobody has players that quality in their farm system. Those guys usually don't spend much time in the minors. We have guys that quality on our team and they are signed for the foreseeable future. You're complaining about nothing. We have the superstars. We just need to fill in the blanks around them and that's what the farm system is for. And guess what? We've got some good guys in the farm system. Which you just can't acknowledge.
If we were playing against a team made up entirely of Crosby, Malkin, Kovalchuk, Toews, Kane, Giroux, etc. etc. then I would be worried. But we're not. We don't ever play them all at the same time, and the times we do play against them we have our own superstars Datsyuk and Zetterberg to play against them. Yes, they're both older (but is 31 and 33 really that much older?), but not to the point where these younger players are dominating them
I'm questioning the overall level of talent in the organization
And the way you're doing it is flawed. You're looking at some of the best players in the world, guys who are instant contributors and comparing them to our guys who are playing in the minors. If you want to say the Red Wings team isn't as talented as some of the others in the league as long as they have guys like Homer, Cleary, and Bertuzzi on the roster then fine. But comparing guy's who have spent most of their very very short careers in the minors to NHL All-Stars is stupid. If you really want to compare the levels of talent between organizations you need to look at the whole story. Look at how their prospects are playing compared to our prospects. And when you do, you see that we have quite a few guys who are NHL ready for next year as compared to their peers
The Red Wings obviously don't have the high-draft picks to nurture the blueiest blue-chip prospects, but they have a substantial amount of kids on the farm who project as All-star caliber if things go right with them.
Your point about the Red Wings playing their veterans is irrelevant - the majority of our prospects are under 21 years old and are in no way ready for the NHL. Teams that DO play prospects so young are also the ones you usually see picking at the top of the draft again the next season. And for the record: Datsyuk emerged as a 23 year old after playing in Russia's highest league, Zetterberg emerged as a 22 year old coming out of the Swedish Elite League(the best league outside of the NHL), and Franzen was DRAFTED as a 24 year old before emerging at 26. It's worth noting that 2 of those 3 guys are some of the best forwardsin NHL history, and using them as a barometer to measure our young talent isn't all that fair.
So you're overreaching a bit here - the only guys in our farm system over the age of 22 are Brendan Smith and Gustav Nyquist(I'll exclude Mursak since he's already graduated and seeing regular minutes) - both of whom are(SUPRISE!) ranked as top-notch prospects by every recruiting publication and seem poised to play fulltime next season. Ipso facto - right on schedule.
-weve currently got Calle Jarnkok rewriting the record books Zetterberg penned in the SEL - as a 20 year old!
-Tatar has owned the AHL as a 20-21 year old. Sheahan is making the jump in his year-21. Joakim Anderrson is a bit overaged, but expect him to be manning Detroit's checking line soon.
-Tomas Jurco is currently eviscerating all comers in the QMJHL.
-Ditto defensemen Xavier Oullet and Ryan Sproul(OHL)
-I havent even mentioned Petr Mrazek, who may be our best goalie prospect...ever.
And there's a host of others all doing VERY well in their respective minor league division and they're ALL under 21. The organization is flowing smoothly, folks. I'd recommend following this website for more regular info on your future Wings:
But are they as good as Kovalchuk, Giroux, and Kane? Apparently you don't have a legit farm system unless you have guys like those in the minors.
EDIT: Just looking at the list on the website, when a guy as skilled as Jurco isn't one of your top 5 prospects, you're in decent shape - at the worst. Probably pretty good shape.
Despite the cynicism, I agree. The most outspoken Wings fans seem borderline clueless. I guess that can be said for most fans of most sports. The less knowledge one has, the louder he or she is.
The Wings have been "too old" and "not tough enough" for 10 years now. They are the most decorated franchise in sports in the last 20 years. Let's pump the brakes. Kenny has money, and he knows what to do with it.
Weber: not an option. Howard: not going anywhere. Stuart and Hudler are likely gone. Suter wants to test free agency, and the Wings have something that all the other teams in his price range don't have: success. I cannot imagine Parise wanting to stay in New Jersey, a bankrupt franchise that backed into the Finals. He and Suter can reunite in Detroit and write their own pages in the Red Wings dynasty. They will still need another d-man because I cannot imagine them being comfortable with Kindl, Ericsson and B. Smith logging regular minutes. I'll trust Kenny with that decision, and any decisions he makes for that matter.
Also, Babcock is one of the best hockey coaches in the world. His seat is ice cold.
I'm surprised Pacioretty isn't a name being thrown around. He scored 65 points last season, he is 23 years old and making 1.75 million. His organization is a mess, new GM, new coach. This is the time to sneak in and grab him now, because he won't be there after the break.
Montreal is prepping for a rebuild. Why would they decide to trade away young, cheap, talent?
He is going to get paid next year. The Habs are not close to being a playoff team so they will deal him instead of letting him walk.
He'll be an RFA in 2013. There's no way they deal him this offseason. That fanbase will look at what Ottawa did last year and scream bloody murder if they settle in for a long term rebuild on the order of 3 or 4 years. In my mind Pacioretty, Subban and Price are all untouchable.
A rebuilding team loves having young players with this much value. They talked about top priorities and Pacioretty has not been mentioned yet. If he has another 60 point season and they're in last place, he's gone.
There are some big names out there that keep getting mentioned that just are not going to come our way:
RICK NASH: He wants out of Columbus, where nothing is going to happen for a long time. Don't blame him--Columbus OH is no place to waste a career. However, he has a mammoth contract and is not an UFA--it will cost a king's ransom to make the deal, and it would probably be, in the long run, too expensive.
SHEA WEBER: He is the franchise in Nashville, and is only a RFA this year (UFA next year). I think Nashville will do anything to keep him--if he goes, what message does this send to your already shakey fan base? I think Weber stays put--this year and next.
SHANE DOAN: This guy has been with the Coyotes since the franchise moved to Phoenix, has a ranch there, and is apparantly happy where he is. I would be surprised if he doesn't finish his career in Phoenix.
Now for the blue-chip possibilities:
RYAN SUTER: The word is Nashville has made him a big offer, but he has not moved on it. My guess he wants to stick his toe in the free agency pond and test the waters, where Ken Holland will be waiting with Mr. I's checkbook. I think he is our best bet to sign.
ZACK PARISE: This deep playoff run of NJ does not help, but the financial instability of the Devils does. There have been longstanding stories about Suter and Parise wanting to play together, so this could be an interesting angle to pursue. The Rangers now have Marian Gaborik with an injury that requites surgery and may keep him out six months, so they are supposedly now in play for Parise's services. To make matters worse, Parise's dad, JP Parise--a former NHL player--has recently said that he thinks the Rangers would be a good fit for Zack. There is, of course, the very real possibility that Parise just resigns with the Devils. Would be the best offensive pick-up, but there is no clear path to signing him as of now.
ALEXANDER SEMIN: He and the Caps are parting company, so he will be available come July 1st. Prolific scorer when he wants to engage, but has a history of being the "lazy Russian" who does not always show up to every game ready to give 100%. Speculation is he could be paired with Datsyuk, who would "educate" him as to the expected Red Wings work ethic. If the Wings wanted to take a chance on him (and if Parise is not available), this could be a real option, and my guess is he is signable.
Agree on Nash, Weber and Doan. I don't get the Nash love. You trade away 3 or 4 valuable pieces for the honor of paying one of highest salaries in the NHL and get production that is suspiciously similar to Jiri Hudler.
If Suter were to sign before Weber, I could see Nashville moving Weber's rights. It all depends on where the salary cap ends up after the new CBA gets hammered out. Nashville has $7MM tied up in Rinne and may not be able to afford all three. In this scenario, though, there are likely to be numerious bidders and I can't see Detroit overpaying to the point that Nashville would keep Weber in the division.
There is the idea that Nash could produce more with having more talent around him. And suspiciously similar to Hudler? This was Nash's first sub-60 point season since 2007 and he had 59 points. Hudler has only gotten to 50 points twice in his career. I can agree that his contract is probably a little too much, but he's not close to Hudler. Nash is a top line guy and his production is actually pretty damn good.
With Weber, would it be possible for the Wings to offer him a large contract (I'm thinking 8mil+) just for the sake of forcing Nashville to match and therefore handicap them financially for the next several years? They are a division rival and IMO the biggest threat to Detroit.
Obviously the key would be guessing a number that would be not too high that Nashville would say "ok, you take him and pay that much"
I bet we'll see something like that. Nothing really serious, since like you said they don't want to risk Nashville going "Eh, whatevs, we'll take your 4 first round picks now", but something to try and drive up the price. Nashville wants him bad though, I don't think Holland would even have to offer up that much before Nasville matched
Will never let Nash go within the division. But Parise is a true goal scorer and something that I think the wings are missing right now.