OT: Questions for Mgolawyers
Sorry mods, I wouldn't post this, but this it's the offseason and I'm stressed out.
I'm nearing my second deposit for law school (the moment of truth) and have a few questions for you who have gone through the law school process. 1) If you could go into any area of law, knowing what you know now, what would it be? 2) What if you had a lot of debt (like 175+k worth)? 3) What's the most important thing you didn't realize until after the fact about applying/attending law school?
It goes without saying, but the LSAT is massively important. And, personally, I was scoring mid-to-high 170's the two weeks before the actual test, taking 6 practice tests in that time, and scored high 160's on the real test, and I don't really think I "choked." A lot of it has to do with the questions you receive on the test. It was the difference between (I think) schollies to M Law and paying full price (although I may be mistaken and overly confident in the idea that a higher LSAT in the mid-170's would've gotten me a nice schollie)
From my experience at Michigan (Ross '06) much of the advice above applies for an MBA, but there are some significant differences. First, networking matters even more at a top MBA program. We used to joke that b-school is a $100K job placement service, and if you want, you can skate through as no one washes out of b-school. At many schools (including Ross) you won't even know your class ranking, as the idea is to reduce destructive competition and prepare students for a teamwork focused business career. You have to work the alumni and club network from day one, particularly when aiming for banking, management consulting, and consumer goods jobs. First year Ggrades still matter for these traditional MBA channels, but much less than Law, it seems, and school reputation matters even more for the big jobs. You will not see McKinsey or Goldman Sachs at MSU or OSU, and many won't consider part-timers.
If considering an MBA, I would recommend following a traditional track to IB, consulting, or CPG, even if you don't plan on making a long term career of it. Having a "name" on your resume will open doors for the rest of your career, no matter what you decide to do. Any corporate frecruiter will respect a few years on wall street, or at Procter & Gamble, or BCG. Plus, you will probably learn more in a year than you do in 2 at b-school.
I am in my 20th year of practice. I went to law school only because I knew I was not ready to settle into a job after completing college. That said, I would not change a thing. My career started as a peon at a 450 lawyer firm, which meant big salary and little lawyering. I left after two years and now am now the the CEO of a 20 lawyer firm. I have had hinring/firing responsibilities for 12 years. A few observations:
1) you do not need to choose a practice area before or even during law school; 2) few lawyers end up practicing at one firm or even the same area of law for their entire career; 3) your pedigree may get you in the door, but your ability and effort will determine your success -- e.g., I have worked with some Ivy leaguers who I would not trust to get a warm cup of coffee, and others who are tremendous lawyers (FWIW, my experience has been that class rank comparisons are a better predictor of success than comparing schools attended); 4) a legal career is a marathon, not a sprint.
Best of luck.
you hiring?
I advise you to get a really fast car with no top.
1) If you could go into any area of law, knowing what you know now, what would it be?
If you have a science background go into Patent Law. Despite the sluggish economy, I see many job openings for Patent Lawyers.
2) What if you had a lot of debt (like 175+k worth)?
If you already have that much debt law school will tack on another 100 grand.
3) What's the most important thing you didn't realize until after the fact about applying/attending law school?
Don't do it unless you want to be a lawyer. A classmate of mine told me that he wasn't even sure he if ever wanted to practice, don't do it if you are sure.
Other than that, entering law school now would be a good time as the economy sucks and should be better by the tme you finish in three years.
What if you don't want to be a practicing attorney but would like to do work that would be much easier to get with a JD (like policy)?
IME you shouldn't go to law school unless you are set on being a lawyer or want the use the degree in the scenario you described.
Either way you are going for the purpose of getting the degree which will help you enter the field you want.
If one is not sure of what they want to do career wise, law school is not the place for them. IME.
1/2) It is hard to predict and sometimes even harder to choose what area of law you want to specialize in. Sometimes you go where the work is and that may not be your preference but you have to pay back your loan$. Patent/intellectual property is lucrative but specialized. For a patent practice you need a science or engineering degree and pass the patent bar if you want to be in patent court. Ambulance chasers can make lots of money but I don’t know who goes into law school with that goal.
Your 1L year is critical. Get good grades so you can have a summer internship. Try to get on law review, participate in moot court, competitions, and work for a law firm even if it is mindless copying. You should go into an area of law that you enjoy and can make $$ practicing. To decide what you like or what makes $, work while in law school and during the summers. I worked for large, medium, small firms and with the feds while in law school. By the time I was 2L I was certified to go to court and was doing simple hearings.
3) If you don’t get into a top 20 school, choose a school that is in a good job market or in an area you want to live. Obviously, go to any school that awards you grants or scholarships.
Many people go to law school expecting that “corporate” large law firm job to bail them out and help pay the bills. First of all it is difficult to get one of those jobs. Second, even after getting it, you work like a slave and you could be fired at any time. If you stay and are invited to be a partner, guess what you have to buy-in to the partnership (at least in my market). So, for my market & the previous firm I was at, it was a $50k+ buy-in (8 yrs ago).
So now what? Conveniently, they offer a loan for it b/c what 5 yr associate has $50k+ lying around?? So let’s add this up: you have the $200k debt ($1500+/mo), maybe a mortgage ($3-5k+/mo), maybe a loan for that new hybrid car ($600/mo), and maybe a wife and kid(s)/daycare($1-2k+/mo), and now add another $50K+ debt. At this point, it is too late, that seemingly simple decision you made to go to law school just X yrs ago has forever changed your life or soul.
But don’t let this sour your choice, it’s not meant to. It's just one example. On a good note, there are tons of other options and luckily I chose another. Talk to other lawyers as advised here.
In a big firm, partnership at year 5 is simply unheard of. At most, you are eligible at year 8 for income partner (i.e., not sharing in the profits), then if you make that, in 2-5 years you can make capital partner (actual ownership).
And, holy crap, if you can't save 50k after 5 years in a big firm, you are doing it wrong. Regardless, most will take the loan because it is on favorable terms.
I graduated two weeks ago today.
Not taking the bar.
No regrets.
Is not taking the bar becoming more common? What kind of work are you looking to find/have you found?
Personally, I don't think going to law school with no intention to become an attorney or at least a member of the bar is a good idea. Now, if you decided while IN law school, that's different. If you don't want the accreditation, get a different degree because I'd think you can likely get the same results for less debt.
I went to MLaw on zero scholarship. I got into better/comparable schools, and schools that were in more appealing areas to me, and I never have second thoughts about not going to those. I frequently have second thoughts about not having gone to the schools that offered me gobs of scholarship dough.
You're likely to feel more trapped by your debt than by your alma mater's lack of prestige. See if you can find a middle ground, with a reasonably good school that offers to take care of at least half of your tuition.
Even in this economy, if you absolutely work your ass off first year, you'll be able to find a job, almost regardless of school.
Also, take a look at bankruptcy law- if you can stomach it, it's one of the very few areas that's in high demand at good firms, and having a preference for it will make you stand out.
The legal market is really tough right now, and the schools are all over full.
I would look seriously at another option.
If you don't mind blood and other people's pain then dental school is best. The dentists I do work for are always at least upper middle class with the shortest work weeks. They also have their girls clean the teeth before they get into them so they seldom get yuck breath in their faces.