No but the character Robert Quarrels on the TV show Justified is a U of M B-school alum, as it turns out. His "U of M! Go Blue!" line cracked me up. :P
OT: Question for Ross School of Business Grads...
I did my undergrad in LSA and took as many classes as possible in the B-School. I ended up doing MBA elsewhere, but the pain of group projects prepares you for the real world. If you can learn how to deal with that one inevitable jerk or the girl who won't hang up her phone long enough to participate, you will be fine when you get your first/second/third job. Ross is an amazing school and will prepare you for success. If she is willing to put for the effort, the admission process will be the toughest portion. The classes aren't easy, but she would be at a different school if she couldn't handle Michigan.
Having a cold blooded killer as a classmate might help you in the business world?
MOAR GROUP PROJECTS. No but seriously you will spend all of your time in group projects.
and the curving of grades can be a bitch. Relatively easy to get B's in most things, but a ton of work to get A's
I would say the hardest part about Ross is getting through the admissions process. If you are not a preadmit, you will need around a 3.7 during your freshman year to get in. But once you get in the curve is very generous, especially since they changed ACC 271/272 from a B- curve to a B+ (I think, possibly A- though) curve.
Since everything is graded on a curve, people are fairly competitve with each other. So getting a A+ (top 5% of each class) or A (next top 15% of each class), you will have to put in the work. But getting at least a B is fairly easy. Most people will either get a B+ or A-.
The one thing I hated the most is when after a group project, some classes ask you to grade your groupmates. And due to the competitve nature of some people in there, they will automatically grade some people lower. Assholes.
One word of advice when it comes to group projects to the OP. Unlike conventional wisdom, I preferred to work with friends on group projects. Pretty much everyone in Ross (but sadly not quite all) is very smart so you will not have a slacker in the group. Working with friends tended to be easier for me, since when your randomly assigned, almost everyone will try to be the "leader" and there will be some headbumping at first. But working with friends you care more about getting quality work done instead of someone thinking their idea is the best and to go with it.
All core classes are now curved to a B+ median and all electives an A- median. So most people will get a B, B+, or A-.
Wish it would have been like that when I went there. When I was in B-school the classes were curved and the median grade was a B-. You had to work your tail off just to get a 3.0.
Easy to get a B, takes more work to get an A and be in that top 15%. You have a bunch of smart people that have no life and take up a certain amount of that, so the average person is competeing to be in that 10-15% range.
(Note i had said A, not A-)
The key to group projects and Ross in general is Business Stilts.
BBA or MBA?
My boyfriend is in Ross and the college of engineering, and would definitely agree about the group projects aspect. Not only will you work in groups in almost every class, but expect to give presentations frequently as well. There are no classes on Fridays, but a lot of people use the free time to schedule group meetings.
Is your girlfriend applying as a preadmit or is she already a student at Michigan?
she is in Cali going to school out there right now.
I'd like to speak with her, but don't want to release my e-mail on a public board. Best advice is to go to the main web page for the MBA program and look for getting hooked up with an admissions ambassador. That's the best first step.
I think there are websites out there that will give you a temporary email address for this kind of thing. I don't know them though, but I bet google would show something.
email@example.com thats mine i just made. send me a message there and ill hook you guys up to chat. im sure she would like that as well.
To add to that a lot of case studies. There is an interesting dynamic where you work closely with other students but also compete since all classes are graded on the curve which I heard has gotten harder.
When you first start you don't have a lot of choice in the classes you take. That changes the first semester or second semester of Junior year.
Definitely make use of the Career Center and mentoring programs early so that you make the best use of your electives. Also conduct informational interviews with alumni in fields in which you are interested. There is a great contact list which can't be used for commercial or spamming purposes but can be used to arrange for information interviews. Definitely do these early again to get a feel for which part of business you want to pursue and they can help you in many other ways as well. They help with research for actual interviews for internships and jobs and send a signal you are interested in the field or job.
There are many good resources for different disciplines (Tozzi Center for Finance).
Have fun with it as many people that you work with are awesome and can turn into great friends in addition to study/group partners.
If that is her main goal to get out of college, Ross will do it for you!
she cant have enough people read them and edit them.
Your sophomore year is by far the most important in regards to GPA. You'll begin internship recruiting with only 2 semesters of credits taken into account in your GPA, so your sophomore year classes will be extremely competitive.
I graduated full-time MBA in 08 and was on the admissions committee, so I know a thing or two about MBA full-time admissions, but not BBA.
I was in the B-school but switched out of it after a year. It wasn't anything against the b-school but I switched my major and was not able to pull off both. My experience was you get out what you put in. I had friends who went through and are working at Goldman Sachs now, where others haven' found a job yet. I'm only a year out, so take it for what it is worth.
I am in my last two classes at Ross and will finally walk April 27th. I am an Evening MBA student, but this advice would be no different for a full time applicant.
If she hasn't worked for at least three years, I highly recommend she gets some job experience first. The big question in interviews is why Ross? And why do you want an MBA? Without work experience and a decent GMAT score, she likely won't even get an interview.
In summary, applying to Ross is similar to applying for a job. Get your resume in order and have a story to tell (why you are capable, why you want to be there, and why you think you are a personality fit for Ross). As you can see from the other posts, the school is big on teamwork and "action based learning". I recommend she researches the school including classes and clubs that pertain to her areas of professional interest.
As you can see from the length of this reply, I have senioritis and Spring fever bad right now. Best of luck!
It's been a while since my MBA, and things may have changed, but I had a wonderful experience. I learned a lot from both the classes as well as my peers. As someone who now interviews newly minted MBAs for my firm, I can say that Ross remains in the top tier of schools - although there are fewer 'lucky sperm club' peers to network with (e.g., people born on third base who sometimes act like they hit a triple).
Group work is a big part of the program, but I think it is in every business school. Overall, while challenging, the content was far easier than my Michigan engineering undergrad - no differential equations or laplace transformations in B-school.
I highly recommend capitalizing on the international opportunities available through the school. I had the opportunity to do student consulting projects in Israel / UK / France (for IMAP) as well as Poland (summer with William Davidson Institute) and we organized an independent study course which took us to Cuba for spring break (with Sec State Powell's approval - I just dated myself).
I agree with the previous poster about having clean essays and resume. I would also suggest having a good point of view on what she intends to do with her MBA (a little altruism never hurts).
Good luck to her
I'm a MBA from '99, also went through the joint Industrial Engineering program. If she is looking into Ross for grad school, I would be happy to speak to her. If it is for undergrad, I really don't know that I could help.
I actively recruit there and am still involved with the school, so I'm fairly current on what's going on.
I am interested in Ross as well. I am 24, married (no children yet) and needing to go a different direction (long story) in my life. I am seriously willing to do whatever it takes but am not sure:
1. How to go about it/where to start
2. What can I do to help finance it
3. What can I do to prepare myself for it.
My wife is ready and willing to support me in this. I believe I have the work ethic and motivation to do it. Any advice to this end would be appreciated as well.
Again...not trying to hijacked a thread...just really hoping for some solid advice on a related topic (my apologies to the OP)
to already have a strong background in your working career prior to applying.
You'll need 3-5 years working experience in a substancial position (either a high-profile position in a small company or a respected position at a blue chip).
If you want to get in through the low end of the spectrum (3 years or so), your background needs to be top consulting/banking type of background for you to have a shot at a top business school.
Agree, and really if you don't have at least four years of full-time post-undergraduate working experience, I don't think you'll get as much from the experience. But then again I had ten years before I went to Ross, so I could just be being age-ist.
Either way make sure your resume is solid if you want to apply for B-school. And have a solid reason for going. Don;t look like you're running away from soemthing, look like you're running to something. Always keep it positive.
for going. Maybe take the time and audit some classes, if not at Ross than somewhere local, to really make sure that business school is what's right for you. I don't know how much thought you've given to to where you want to end up career-wise so I don't want to presume anything. Lets just say that 80k is a lot to spend to figure out that you actually wanted a masters in engineering.
Reach out to people you know, do some information interviews to get an idea of the field/position you'd like to go in. Honestly, I think that business degrees are great for rounding out your skill set in just about any field and with the right plan they pay for themselves, but it doesn't hurt to do your due diligence. Good luck!
Thanks to the 3 that responded. Just to be clear I'm considering starting over with undergrad as I don't have much experience working for any top-level organizations. I have thought about this for a while and talked to some people although any and all advice is appreciated. I am not running from anything...just wanting to do more for my future and my family and am really interested in business. Thanks again.
Look into one of the part-time programs (evening if you're in the area or weekend if further out).
I'm on the RSB faculty and think highly of these programs/students.
If she's interested in MBA admissions, have her connect with Ross Ambassadors via the Contact Us link on the admissions website. There are over 200 of us and she'll be able to find people with similar career paths and interests to get in touch with.
BBA...no idea. They seem bright, but they take up too much space in the Winter Garden:)
Speaking of MBA's and Ross, does anyone know if Ross is going to be going to any type of accelerated one year MBA program?
I know it's something they're looking at, but I wouldn't hold my breath. There are one year options, like Masters in Supply Chain Management.
I have a slightly different prespective. I firmly believe that Ross is over-hyped. Ross is an amazing program for finance, accounting, marketing, and certain types of consulting. If you want to do almost anything else, you need a dual degree. However, it is much easier to study something else and then get an MBA later.
The Pre-Admit program is a good opportunity, but I believe it is also over-hyped. Students must go to mandatory seminars, and most of them are worthless. With a busy Freshman year schedule, these are a liability. If you concentrate, you will get the ~3.7 gpa needed to probably be admitted during the regular pre-admit session.
I decided to not enroll in the Business School, opting instead for Industrial and Operations Engineering. There are plenty of programs related to business at Michigan that, in my opinion, are more valuable if you are not set on finance or accounting:
Organizational Studies, Engineering (specifically IOE or Computer Science), School of Information, Econ, Psychology, School of Social work, and I am probably forgetting a few.
I owe my entire career path to Ross and the on-campus recruiting Wall Street does there. Outside of going to Harvard or Penn, I don't think I would have been given the same opportunities.
OP - Good luck to your girlfriend
jmorof - good luck in your future endeavors but I would have to disagree with your assessment of the value of a Ross degree
If you want finance or accounting, the degree is very valuable. If you want something else (like operations, HR, ect), I would highly reccomend looking at another program.
Also, it's a hell of a gateway to the top companies in the world.
I owe my career path to it as well. Growing up in a blue collar coal mining town with permanent double-digit unemployment, it gave me exposure to a world I only read about or caught glimpses of on TV. My career options pre-MBA consisted of retail management at best, and only if I was really, really lucky.
At the B-school, I got to interview with all of the top firms, attend their receptions, meet their executives, etc.
The gateway aspect is not to be understated if you are coming in from the outside. It's all work experience that counts once you are out of the school for a year or so. After that, nobody cares all that much where you got your MBA. It checks the box, but what really counts is what you've done on the job. But the MBA gets you to that jumping off place. In my case, that was a whole different level than I could have gotten otherwise.
I got my BBA at Ross. I don't think getting an undergraduate business degree is a good use of your college education. Recruiters will recruit smart people in any major at top schools, and I've met so many liberal arts majors from Ivies who are hired into the top consulting firms or Ibanks. If you really love finance or accounting, then go for it. But otherwise, an undergrad engineering degree with an MBA will open up so many more doors for you than a BBA and MBA.
Yes, if you have your sights set on an MBA eventually, don't get a BBA. Get something you can build on and compliment with an MBA. The BBA is too redundant.
Hello, fellow IOE.
Couldn't agree more with the above poster (I was a BBA). I'll elaborate further when I get to a computer.
Ross is a great school for certain kinds of people who want to do certain kinds of things. If you want to work on Wall St. (metaphorically, as these jobs obviously exist in LA, Chicago, Dallas, other satellite offices) and grind in investment banking, sales and trading, or other aspects of finance later on like hedge funds and private equity, GO TO ROSS. I say grind because you are treated as a commodity (no shortage of willing people) and a warm body to work however many hours they need you unless you are financial royalty like Leon Black's son. It is not an easy life, but if what you want is a safe track to lots of money and you are willing to sacrifice other aspects of your life (social, comfort, health, happiness) for several years, then go for it.
Ross is NOT a great school if you want to do something creative. If you want to work on products or technology and want to build things that make people's lives easier or do a startup, do not go to Ross. Go do something in science or engineering and audit whatever Ross classes you need. The reason Ross is not good for these kinds of careers is that culturally, it strongly emphasizes jobs like financial services (Wall St.), consulting, and accounting. These are not jobs/fields in which value is derived from creating anything; here value is derived by providing a service and/or speciality. These services do not really change, and that is why there is little innovation in the financial world as opposed to the high tech world. The innovation that exists, such as derivatives, are ultimately very potentially harmful as they are built and used out of greed with little regulation or self control (see CDOs, housing bubble, financial crisis, etc.).
How do I know all this? I graduated as a BBA and worked on Wall St in investment banking. Today I do consulting for a large financial firm. I have lived the "Ross experience", and to be honest I hate my life. I do not consider myself a greedy person, and I would like to build products that help people. My opportunity to do so is quite limited with my degree and career, and often I wish I had finished undergrad engineering instead. Also this is a massive generalization, but most people who went to Ross and are on Wall St. (and who go to Wall St. in general) are not kind, decent people. They become addicted to the next bonus and their own lifestyles and couldn't give a shit about what Joesph Kony is doing or that the income disparity is higher than ever in the United States. These aren't necessarily bad people to begin with; just a really terrible environment to live in.
My advice is to keep your options open and go with some sort of engineering. If you are smart, then you can get any of these Wall St. / consulting jobs anyway; people look very highly upon Michigan's Engin school. However, if you decide you don't want that career path, you have plenty of other options. I would recommend CS. I didn't do this because I wanted to have a good time in college (and did), but I would trade it all in a heartbeat to have a career in which I don't hate going to work everyday (I am quitting soon).
Business concepts are relatively easy to pick up in comparison to science/engineering things. An MBA will hook you up great for any business job you could want, but a different undergrad degree will open up more doors for you.
I want to emphasize jcorqian`s experience speaks to the BBA experience and not the MBA experience - MBAs tend to be broader in their career focuses and many go into other fields including healthcare, tech, and marketing.
If you want to get into the business side of technology for instance, going for a CS/Engineering undergrad and a Ross MBA is a pretty solid plan.
Absolutely agree, the MBA experience is quite different. Obviously candidates come from all different backgrounds and there is a lot more diversity of mindset and ideas. Hope I made it clear I was speaking for the BBA degree.
Also, I don't want to come off too negative on the BBA; it's a great program. The key, however is knowing that you really want to be a finance or consulting guy before you enroll in it. That's hard for a lot of young guys to truly know at 20 or so having never worked in those fields. That's why I would advise engin or something to keep doors open.
Great advice, and also know that going from Business to Engineering can be done. While working full-time I've also been satisfying CS pre-reqs in preparation for going to a Masters program in Computer Science. I also landed a job building tech products despite my BBA, though it does take a LOT of work to get yourself in.
is to give a bit of thought to what area of business she whats to focus on (Finance, Marketing, Strategy, Information Technology, etc.), different schools schools are better at different subjects. From my experience (BBA '09), Ross is very strong in Finance, Strategy and Operations, I think this is reflected in their research output in those subjects as well. To be fair though, I didn't really take much of the other classes.
Another thought is to look around at the demographics of various B-schools. Some schools prefer to take people with a lot of work experience while others seem to prefer a younger crowd.
Graduating from Ross with a BBA this year.. The curve makes it tough to get an A, especially when you slack like I do. I didn't love Ross that much until this year when the recruiting process kicked into gear. The resources from the career center are just awesome, so I have been extremely happy with that. Good luck to her!
I'd recommend spending the extra year to get a real degree and go to law school.
...I think his gf is interested in a real job, not being a lawyer.
My Ross BBA was 15 years ago so I'm sure things have changed since then. Regardless, one enormous benefit is/was Career Services. I felt much better prepared for interviews and that I had better access to good jobs than my friends with Economics degrees. Getting a BBA might be a poor use of resources for some like someone mentioned above. But if none of the other majors are appealing and an MBA might not be a priority down the road then a BBA could be the way to go. I got an MBA from Berkeley and was better prepared for classes than the non-BBAs and could focus on other things because of that but did have to repeat a few things too. Getting into the BBA program is more than just grades. Leadership in clubs, etc is also important.