I have been watching, although not too closely the media circus surrounding the impending NBA free agent bonanza. However, I have not heard the Pistons as candidates for even some of the less heralded choices, such as Carlos Boozer, Amare Stoudemire, or Paul Pierce. Has there been any hints as to what they might try to do during the offseason? What is their cap space? I thought their strategy all along was to position themselves to pick up at least somebody in this free agent class? They are getting to be almost as unwatchable as the Lions.
OT: Pistons Next Move
have much cap space due to Ben Gordon and Charlie Villaneuva signing last off-season which proved to be a bad move by Joe D. The Pistons are saddled with 3 bad contracts(both plus Rip) and they can't trade them away for assets or cap space. The only player that is tradeable is Tayshaun Prince(expiring contract, I believe) and Joe D is in love with him for some reason.
The only thing that the Pistons can do is MLE(Mid-level exception) to the FA vets. Otherwise, we're going to see the same team plus Monroe and possbiliy White) next year.
joe d really screwed the pooch over the past two years.
- trading chauncey
- offering rip an awful contract
- offering ben gordon a huge contract
- offering CV a huge contract
now we have a team that has no defenders, a bunch of shooters, no distributors, no serious post presence. its a fucking disaster.
At the time it didn't seem that bad because the perception was that it was to free up space for this free agent class. Too bad he signed gordon and charlie v instead or this summer would have been way more fun.
Unfortunately, few who make them. This is what happens when you try to change your whole philosophy overnight.
Yeah when I said shooters, I meant players who love to take shots. I didn't mean to imply that they actually made them on a regular basis.
God this team reminds me of a crappy version of Isaiah's knicks. Sooooooooooooooo sad.
You sir have stumbled precisely on the problem. We're like those knicks teams, except we have less talent. I would say that our team has a better attitude.
The Billups deal was a good one. Billups was old, beginning to decline, and had a giant contract. Joe D unloaded him for an expiring contract. That was great. That he went on to waste the cap space on Gordon does not change the fact that it was a sensible move to make. The Pistons were spinning their wheels with Billups at that point. They needed a shakeup. It's just that the ensuing shakeup didn't work out.
I agree on the Rip and Gordon moves - those were awful. Villanueva was reasonable, though. He's not making huge money. He's getting the mid-level exception. The Pistons are getting decent production for what they're paying him. It's Gordon who's the cap-killer.
Fire Joe D.
He traded Chauncey to free up space for this summer and then blew his load on Charlie no hair and chucker Ben Gordon. Awful.
He traded away Okur for nothing.
He kept Hamilton.
Oh yea and that Darko thing...
Our only move is to fire Joe D. He gotlucky taking a chance on Chauncey and Ben Wallace and it did work, but since then he has done nothing right. Literally nothing. It is a shame because I think G Monroe will be an above average player. This team is shit and will be shit for a long time.
Okur wasn't traded. The pistons did not have enough cap space to match the Jazz's offer which I believe was somewhere around 60 mill over 5 years.
It was either keep Okur or keep Rasheed. At the time, it seemed a no-brainer, Rasheed was the extra oomph the Pistons needed to get over the top in 2004, so why not re-sign him? His attitude was fantastic and he was still a very good player.
Or, maybe it was Mike James who put them over the top. Damn it, they should have re-signed him!!
that I'm not sure even exists anymore, that you couldn't go over the cap to sign your second round picks like you could you other players. And you couldn't sign him, THEN go over the cap with Rasheed. So they had to sign Sheed first, which didn't give them the cap room for what Okur was commanding. It was just a bad rule that really hurt our frontcourt. Darko wouldn't have hurt as much if we had Memo to take his place. Probably cost us another championship, but really, for the short term, they had to sign Wallace. That one I don't blame Joe for.
Drew Sharpe (I know he's an idiot) suggested that Chris Paul is on the market, and the Pistons are interested. I don't know if it's true but it would be awesome.
Joe Dumars has made some nice draft picks in the past and some decent moves, but as of the last few years he has been a mental case. Some of the moves (Charlie V and Ben Gordon, trading Chauncey) didn't seem too terrible at the time, but they have really proven to be terrible. Chauncey is doing great things with Denver, and the two pick ups from last year aren't providing anywhere near the value we should be getting based on their contracts. Hopefully a draft pick like Monroe will turn out, or Dumars is going to get some serious criticism (which he already is/should be receiving). I wouldn't mind having a different guy making decisions. I also enjoyed the decision to get rid of Flip after he refused to stop getting the Pistons to the playoffs.
Gordon is earning entirely too much for a streaky shooter who is just as likely to go 15/20 as he is 0/13... not to mention he's the 6th man. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt since he was hobbled half the season and never seemed to find a real rhythm with the team, but he is still overpaid.
And don't even get met started on Charlie V... terrible defender, predictable offense, seems like he had a lot of potential 2-3 years ago with Milwaukee based on age and upside, but at the end of the day I'd be surprised if he ever gets any better... He's already peaked.
Unfortunately, not many people are going to be stupid enough to pick up either of those contracts in a trade...
The only way this Piston's team is going to make the playoffs is if Rip/Gordon stay healthy and Stuckey has a career year. I think Stuckey has the potential of becoming an all-star point guard if he can improve his range and run smoother transition offense (like Rondo).
who cares its the NBA
Then why even click this thread if its OT and you don't care about it. Those of us who care don't really give a shit if you don't.
We would have been much better off sitting on the 20 mil that went to Ben Gordan and Charlie V. Last year we couldn't have been any worse and if we were, thats a higher pick with tons of cap space.
Charlie V is terrible, I wish we would jus buy him out (never going to happen).
Joe Dumars hasn't had a good draft since he landed Prince and Okur. Jonas Jerebko may turn out pretty decent also. Other than these guys, He's built the rest of the team through acquisition/trades (not a bad thing). However, when you picked up Gordon/ CV, you dumped money where you shouldn't have, and now the Pistons will be paying the price long term. I think whoever the new owners are of the Pistons will end up firing him IME.
I'm really puzzled with the Greg Monroe pick, I realize that Udoh wasn't there, but was he really the best available?
Monroe was the BPA at #7 overall. Udoh was a reach at #6 IMO. Monroe has the talent to dominate but doesn't always do it(not sure if it's the result of Princeton offensive system that G'Town run). He is the best passing big men in the draft, has size to play at both 4/5 position and he can score in variety of ways.
I don't think any of the top tier people (Lebron, Wade, Bosh) were going to come to Detroit no matter what...and Joe D knew that. Trading Chauncey...well, I didn't like it, but frankly, would we be much better with him? Maybe a low level playoff team. Signing Gordon and Charlie V was idiotic...unless they make a Chauncey-like career rebound. We have to dump contracts, especially Rip and Prince (though I hate to see either of them go). We need another low post guy. But frankly, unless we get lucky, I don't see it happening. The draft, and hopefully lucky building from within, is our only hope.
on Charlie and Gordon I think. Both were injury plagued throughout the season but when healthy showed a willingness to play better D than they had at their previous stops (that was the chief concern with them coming in). When Gordon is on, which is most nights, he is one of the top scorers in the league. I'll be shocked if we don't see a major improvement with those two this year if they're healthy.
Ben Gordon will be fine when Joe gets rid of the other 6 players that play the same position. As far as Chucky V, well Joe may as well have lit that money on fire. Joe didn't hold onto the money until this year, because none of the big dogs were going to come to Detroit anyway. It never really has been that big of a draw for top tier free agents regardless of sport has it? I do wish Joe would have held on to some of that money and made a run at David Lee. They could use a few guys with his skill set.
I think there is better than a 50-50 chance that the new owner brings in his/her own GM.
I have heard rumblings (and I'm still holding out hope) that the Pistons are going to make a serious play for DeMarcus Cousins (without giving up Monroe).
I think that would be amazing, but I honestly don't know what they could possibly give up to get him. I wouldn't take the Piston's entire roster for Cousins. I mean, seriously, I am trying to think of a trade one might take and I can't. And its not like Ms. Davidson is about to throw around a ton of cash. She wants nothing to do with the team.
Edit: Just to clarify, I have nothing against Karen Davidson, she is a very nice lady. I just don't think she is interested in running the team the way someone like Cuban does.
The only way I can see it happening is if Tayshaun is dealt (the Kings have a glaring need at SF plus Tay has an expiring deal) along with maybe Kwame or Wilcox's expiring contract, and possibly a future 1st rounder or a considerable cas h sum. We would also probably have to take back Frankie Gracia's bad contract. It's a high price to pay, but I think if they play their cards right, they could make the move. It's a long shot at this point though.
I really don't understand why Joe D gets so much heat and Dombrowski gets a free pass. Not that Dumars doesn't deserve criticism for the position the team is in, but he did give them enough talent to make a run for several years in a row, which is his job. They only finished the job once, but its hard to blame him for that. I would say that Joe should at least be given a couple more years to see if he can right the ship before he gets the axe. I keep seeing comparisons to Isaiah's knicks, but I don't think that is fair. Isaiah never assembled the teams that Joe did. I mean, outside of the obvious huge hits like Ben and Chauncey, he brought in Sheed (which worked out for at least a year or two), and signed some great role players that helped them make the title run, Mike James, Okur, Cambell, just to name a few.
Dombrowski on the other hand, has no cap, has the 6th highest payroll, and gets owned by the twins and whitesox year after year in the division. Also, he has only had one year where he came remotely close to winning a title. Yet I see threads all over the place about Leyland needing to be fired and Dombrowski being a god. Given the lack of actual talent on the team outside of a handful of players and one pitcher, that just doesn't make sense to me.
Baseball has a lot more moving pieces to deal with and plan for when you include the minor league system. Dombroski had a plan to take our farm system, which was one of the worst in baseball, and rebuild it to something good. He has had some great drafts and injuries have really hurt some of our teams. We finished 2nd in 2006, 2007, and 2009 in the division and Chicago has had a better record than us only once since 2005. One player or one draft pick does not make or break a team in baseball like it does basketball. Dombrowski seems to have a systematic way of doing things and Dumars just seems all over the map. Do you remember just how bad the Tigers were when he first took over? We are a contender in the division every year now, this year included. Once again our pitching staff is being bit by the injury bug though.
like, ridiculously good. Every first round pick since Verlander has helped this team out a lot, other than perry and turner, turner is 19 and noone can call perry a bust. Even Miller and Maybin helped, getting Miggy. He's extended a few bad contracts, noteably Robertson and Willis, maybe guillen due to his injury risk. I stand by the bondo contract, and the maggs, even with the stupid vesting options.
He's made 1 bad trade, for renteria, and there's a small chance he made another in washburn, but only if robles can become a lot more than scouts think he will. You can't point to anything DD has done that has been a franchise changing mistake, and they have been near the top of the division longer than we've been near the bottom.
Joe, on the other hand, drafted darko instead of Anthony, bosh, and wade. That is devastating. He has been an awful drafter outside of that too, taking huge flyers when he could actually get useful role players. Then we go into this draft with 2 players possibly available for the pistons, Cousins or Jefferson, both would need a trade, and Joe couldn't get it done. Instead he picked a center who doesn't play defense, dissapears for long stretches on offense, and is unathletic. Sure, he can pass, but he's not a point guard, he's a big. He has to be tough and tenacious, words that have never been associated with Greg Monroe. Then he takes a COMBO GUARD in the second! we apparantly needed another, instead of a big, which this draft was loaded with. I'm sure he's Looooong and strooooong just like Walter freaking Sharpe.
To answer the threads question though, they need to tank. Tank hard, get a big man, or a true point.
Agree with you on Darko. You forgot to mention Rodney White. Dumars definitely deserves the heat he's getting over the past two seasons. Don't agree with you on Monroe, but the jury's out on him until next season (re: Cousins- if the rumors are correct, the Wolves and Kings were asking too much for the right to move up two and three spots).
I also think you're wrong on Dumars ability to draft role-players. The second round is always a crap-shoot. It's easy to look back in hindsight and cherry-pick the guys who have panned out, and say we should have taken them, very few of those picks do. You can play that sort of game for every GM in the league, including the ones who are known for drafting well. With his misstakes, Dumars has still been able to find several solid contributors mid to late in the first round or in the second round. Off the top of my head- Prince, Stuckey, Maxiell and Jerebko still play solid minutes for us. Whatever else you want to say, those guys are solid role-players. Guys like Carlos Delfino, Amir Johnson, Arron Afflalo also definitely fit that bill as well. I wouldn't put Dumars up with RC Buford in this regard, but he's certainly not as bad as you're making him out to be.
One thing about Dumars that doesn't really get taken into account is that he's always operated within fairly strict financial constraints. Bill Davidson wasn't a Robert Sarver type, but he also wasn't a Paul Allen, Dan Gilbert or Mark Cuban type spender. That has to be taken into account when assessing Dumars. Maintaining the sustained success that we had last decade, without being allowed to break the bank is very impressive. Not many GM's have been able to pull off that trick.
Picking Darko was a joke, but Carmelo Anthony was the consensus best player available after LBJ in the 2003 draft. Consequently, I don't blame Joe for passing Wade or Bosh, but I am still extremely PO'd that he didn't take 'Melo. If one ignores injuries like those to Sam Bowie and looks at judgement of talent and potential as the main factors, Darko may be the worst pick in the history of the draft.
As for where they go now, I hope they tank it and build through the draft. FA's, for whatever reasons, don't want to go to Detroit in any sport except hockey. In other sports, Detroit teams overpay for players who couldn't get a decent offer anywhere else. Joe needs to build his next version of the Pistons just like he did the last one: through trades and drafts with an occasional FA role player.
They might as well go young this year and see how high a pick they get next year.
Picking Darko was a joke, but Carmelo Anthony was the consensus best player available after LBJ in the 2003 draft.
No, Darko was the consensus best player after LeBron. Scouts called him the greatest international prospect ever and said he'd be the easy #1 pick most years.
In no way am i trying to hinder your intelligence...but that is a horrible comment. Darko was hands down the 2nd best player available. every scout and GM loved him. Some even thought he could be better than LBJ. Joe D is a good GM. we won a championship and went to the conference finals what 6 years in a row. He built that team without a star. that is probably the one team to win without a star in the past decade. be happy with what we got and that we don't have a guy draft three PGs in the 1st round let along two back to back like in Minnesota. I love the pistons and i love Joe D and forever will for what he has done as a player and a GM
But I think there's a LITTLE hope to possibly trade Gordon to a contender at some point; he could be a great asset in a role like the one Terry has on the Mavs, or Crawford on the Hawks.
Raymond Felton has contracted the Pistons to see their interest (interested; mid-level might not be enough), and first free agent Joe contacted was Brendan Haywood (though might be too much too; and sign-and-trade bait).
There's also mention from the Detroit News that Matt Barnes is another possibility. Is Jordan Farmar worth a look?