Pretty amazing they were able to find a taker considering Gordon's cap hit. Even if Maggette does absolutely nothing, this seems like a win.
Pretty amazing they were able to find a taker considering Gordon's cap hit. Even if Maggette does absolutely nothing, this seems like a win.
Now they just need to drop Charlie V
Dumars inked Gordon (a 6th man) to a pricey contract, and tossed a bunch more money to Charlie...terrible production and a good deal of wasted money. Did he really think those 2 signing were going to push the Pistons over the top? He set the franchise back at least 3 years with those deals.
Well this will be the 4th year since that happened and they aren't even close to being a playoff team. Joey D has made some questionable decisions these past 4 years.
I couldn't agree more. I always felt that Joe D was trying to find the "Diamond in the rough" with all his free agent signings and draft picks. He went out on a REAL far limb with Darko. Tayshaun paid off well at the begininng but wasn't that great the past few years. He's made more questionable decisions than good ones for the organization. He should have been let go a while ago. I can't imagine where the organizatino would be if he would have drafted Carmelo.
The '04 Pistons would've never geled with Melo needing the ball as much as he does. That's really the only silver lining of drafting Darko in '03.
Everyone wanted Darko at that spot. That wasn't a limb.
I'm sorry but anyone executive/scout who wanted Darko is an idiot.
Its just like at the NFL combine when someone blows the doors off his position group by posting great "measurables", gets picked in the Top 20 and is promptly out of the league in 3 years with 5 different teams.
Especially in basketball I would much rather take a 4 year college player (or even a 1/done)who can get me a solid double/double a night than than a Euro giant who hasnt shown or done squat.
Just look at the recent Euro trend in the NBA; how many of those picks worked out for those teams?
You're using hindsight to say it was a bad decision in 2003. We know it was a bad decision NOW. But back then, no analysts or scouts shoot their heads at the pick. Only fans that had never seen him play.
And your statemtn about rather taking a college player doesn't even mean anything. Of course you're going to take a guy that gives you a double-double over a guy that won't do anything. The problem is you don't know what a guy is going to give you.
Go look at all the mock drafts and analysis about Darko before the draft. Most everybody liked him.
This is the problem with the history - it lets people justify their past feelings without taking into account the fact that decisions had to be made with the present information only. At the time, the top 4-5 players in the draft were LeBron #1 and then a distant group of Darko, Bosh, Melo, and Wade. Yes, three of those four have panned out to varying degrees, but at the time Darko was being touted as a better version of Dirk and there were legitimate questions about guys like Wade (older, potential for injury) and Bosh (a 1-and-done who had good but not great college stats). Even Melo, winning a title and being a leader on that team, had questions since he wasn't a great defender and looked like a high-volume scorer. Darko had his flaws, but he was a big guy with a nice stroke and the ability to be a great inside-outside player.
So yeah, Joe screwed up that pick, but if he had taken Melo or Wade, Darko would have simply done 3rd or 4th. Joe didn't reach; he just chose the wrong guy. It happens, but don't act like you "knew" it was a bad decision and somehow scoring 15.5 pts and grabbing 9 boards in the ACC was better than a guy who showed a good deal of promise playing against older players in Euro leagues.
Like everyone else said, hindsight and all that.
While I wanted the Pistons to take DWade at the time as I had fallen in love with his game at Marquette, Darko was the best choice.
At that time the Pistons did not have Sheed, and were in need of another big man. They didn't have a team who could accommodate Carmelo or DWade.
That being said, they totally screwed up Darko. They should have realized that LB doesn't play rookies, and that Darko needed a ton a playing time to develop, so he needed to stay overseas. He could have continued his natural progression, and been ready to help the team in a number of years.
Despite all the bullshit Darko had to put up with, he is still one of the better shot blockers in the game, and a good interior post defender. He moves very well on offense and defense.
Had he been given proper time to cultivate his offensive game, he could have turned into one of the better big guys in the league.
Fun fact: Rob Pelinka is Corey Maggette's agent.
They still have the amnesty, right? That could go to Charlie V for sure.
Then they can go out and spend that money on some much needed wing scorers.
They wont have any money until 2013, when they'll have a buttload. Unfortunately that year doesn't any wing scoring. Best hope is for a big in free agency that year. Dwight Howard and Andrew Bynum will be unrestricted that offseason as of now, and Serge Ibaka will be restricted. Pick up one of those, draft a solid backup big Thursday (Henson, Leonard) and you'd have a decent core along with Knight, Stuckey and Monroe.
LOL. As a Pistons fan I like to dream, but there is absolutely no chance Dwight Howard or Andrew Bynum will ever sign with Detroit.
Would be way too much money for a guy you're never going to win with. He needs to at minimum be your second best player, and probably 3rd to be a championship contender. He'd come in here and not be someone who could lead this team to a ring (which is salary would dictate), and would be a horrible example for the younger guys. He's down low help a contender who needs some size in the middle gets to put them over the top. Not a superstar acquisition.
But yeah, even he probably wouldn't come anyway.
Seconded on ditching Ben Gordon ... I like the trade. I'm not sure I've ever seen such an interesting pick arrangement, but I haven't paid attention to all the trades over the past few years, either.
Most picks traded are protected like that.
There was a very similar structure to the pick we received that eventually became the Darko pick. We traded Otis Thorpe to the Grizzlies in like 1998 or so and got back a protected pick that we finally actually got five years later.
They would have kept it, gotten LeBron, and the pick would have come later and sucked. Instead we got the number 2 pick....and it sucked.
So I wonder what they're planning on doing with maggette and prince at SF.
They probably plan to do nothing with him.
I'm not sure I like giving up a first round pick. I know they hope to be in the playoffs and have the pick not be worth that much, but they're still a long way from good, and the only way they become great is to get lucky in the lottery. You only do that by having lots of first round picks and hoping one is in a tanked season and you get lucky.
The ideal hope is they win the lottery next year and there's some great high schooler out there who explodes as a freshman. But I wouldn't hold my breathe. They better hope they get really good soon, or they don't have any injuries after the next couple of years. Otherwise it could be a disaster if they give Charlotte a top pick 3 or 4 years from now. Unless the Bobcats draft Darko 2016.
But on face value takes care of one of two mistakes and allows the amnesty to be used on the other.
After all is said and done, we basically gave Chauncey away for nothing.
That was the point. Joe traded him for an expiring contract so he could have cap space in the FA market......he just grossly misused the cap space.
That's what I mean. Basically traded Chauncey for Villanueva and Gordon and once we drop Villa, none of the above will even be on the team. Guess they are just banking on taking their lumps again next year and hopefully making SMART MOVES in free agency in 2013.
I also don't like the trade. We aren't going anywhere next year, and I think the Pistons could have toughed out another year with Ben Gordon, tthus turning his contract into an expiring one, and a potential trade piece. If no one wanted him, you just let his contract expire and use the money to keep key pieces you already have, or sign a couple of quality veterans to short term deals.
If Michael Jordan is still there in 2016, then you can pretty much count on him drafting Darko 2016. Even though I have not been a fan of Joey D's choices as of late, I would really be hating life if Jordan was running the show here.
I can live with losing the first-round pick because the savings on the salary cap is huge. The Pistons can sign the equivalent of a lotto pick with the cap space they've gotten. Also, the Pistons are gradually getting better - they'll probably a playoff team two years from now, which would make the pick not that important.
They take the best free agent market ever and sign...Gordon and Charlie V. And the 2013 market is Howard and nobody else. And even Howard doesn't make them a championship team, just really good.
And yes, barring trouble the Pistons should be a bottom feeder playoff team...but what if in year 3 or 4 Monroe blows out a knee, and the pick drops into the Lottery? Then you're screwed. That's how one gets top picks...unexpectedly bad seasons, and lucky lottery bounces. Which is the only way for the Pistons to become great, because they've shown they can't pend free agent money wisely, and back away when guys like Garnett come up for trades. They've basically thrown up their hands at getting anything other than mildly better through the draft.
Daye is a failure that plays better at SG (and I have recently read that Joe is close to writing him off) Singler hasn't signed a contract yet, and Jerebko could very well spend most of his time at PF again.
Maggette will back up Tayshaun and both will have their minutes scaled back considering they are 33 and 32. Both have some experience sliding over a position in either direction and playing time could be made up that way.
It's a smart trade, but the Pistons still are a total clusterf*&%. I stood behind Dumars for so long regarding the Billups trade because it was a smart move. But he spent the extra cap money soooo poorly. Charlie V and Gordon were overwhelmingly disappointing.
Still excited for the draft, though. Hopefully they can grab another quality piece like they have the past two years with Monroe and Knight.
Now we have to get rid of Charlie Villanueva. I still don't see why this wasn't a fireable decision...two HORRIBLE contracts given out on two below average players.
On top of drafting very mediocre outside of Monroe and Knight.
The championship was enough to give a pass on Darko, but Dumars has done NOTHING to get a pass on the majority of the decisions he's made recently.
(Outside of Darko) It's hard to miss when picking in the top 10. Guys bust all the time, but usually safe picks are decent players (Monroe and Knight). But the rest of his moves, over the past few years, have been pretty terrible.
The team seems to be lacking direction. They are in "rebuilding mode," which means focus on young players. But there is no direction or set personality for this team. Without any true star in the NBA, you won't make it to the top. The Pistons are nowhere near the top nor will they be anytime soon.
My model is to trade out of this pick to try and get a couple nice young pieces to go with Monore and Knight.
Then use the money I have when I get rid of Gordon and Villanueva to go after a "face of the franchise" type player.
Say we traded down in this draft and came away with 2 of the following 4 players:
1. Jared Sullinger
2. Royce White
3. Fab Melo
4. Will Barton
None of these guys will be a star, but I think all can be solid starters to 6th/7th men. And I don't Pistons level 6th/7th men, I mean somewhere between Mario Chalmers and Mike Miller level. Between Sefolosha and Collison level. On this team, that's you're 3rd to 5th best player, hopefully in 3 years it's your 3rd to 7th best player.
Anyway, I'd grab guys that this. I'd trade Austin Daye, especially if I could get White. And Jerebko can go as well if we can get something for him. Maybe a legit SG so Stuckey can come off the bench with the option to play SG/PG.
You put that team together and then spend your cap room on a legit, young SF who can carry a team with a decent support cast and you have a reasonable team. It's probably a 7-seed, something similar to the 76ers, but it's a start.
Build young like the Pacers/Thunder. Don't think the city of Detroit is going to attract Dwight Howard and/or Daron Williams.
I said guys who'd be the 3rd to 5th men in the rotation...but on a real team, a championship team (which we're far from) they'd be 6th to 7th men.
Nick Collison/DeJuan Blair...they come off the bench of their teams but they'd start for us now.
I want young guys that can help us now, and hopefully as we continue to build...settle into a role down the road. You're not going to find a franchise player where we're at in the draft.
I named 4 guys above...
1. Jared Sullinger (I think his ceiling is Boozer, but I think he's more of a DeJuan Blair/Nick Collison type impact)
2. Royce White (I think his ceiling is Paul George (now, not Paul George in 3 years when he's really going to be good, but I think he's more of a Ron Artest (on a good day) type impact)
3. Fab Melo (I think he's a Brendon Haywood type impact)
4. Will Barton (I think he's a Rip Hamilton (today's RIP, not '04 RIP) type impact)
Personally, I think if you can add that kind of talent now. That's going to help you now and down the road. In most years, guys #7 - 15 are a roll of the dice...maybe Henson is Paul George, maybe he's Tyrus Thomas/Hakim Warrick. Is the ladder worth a #9 pick?
Nothing is a sure thing, I get that. But I play the odds of hitting on 2 vs. 1 when neither is going to be an NBA superstar.
Also a #9 pick is going to demand patience to see if he pans out. A #20 plays his role, period.
If I can look back at the Pistons in 2-3 years and see something like this...
1. Brendan Haywood
2. Fab Melo
1. Greg Monroe
2. Jared Sullinger
1. Legit NBA Young Star
2. Royce White
1. Aaron Afflalo
2. Rodney Stuckey
1. Brandon Knight
2. Will Bynum
...I think that's a start. You've got the ability to play Monroe and Sullinger together (although there would be no athleticism), you can go small with Monroe, White and your Legit NBA Young Star...and you have a nice 3-man rotation with Afflalo/Stuckey/Knight.
You put this type of team together...THEN you go try to get a big time FA. Or maybe you get two solid pieces like a Joakim Noah type. Someone's who's forever on the trading block and could be traded down the road for a draft pick and a couple other assets.
When the f did afflalo come back to the pistons?
...in this dream scenario I've put together. When did Brenden Haywood ever get on the Pistons? Same answer.
Good luck getting a big time FA to sign in Detroit. Gotta build through draft or trades (see: Sheed)
Because for the plan to work you need that guy...and who and how? THAT'S the hard part. The rest is easy.
They built around a young Danny Granger.
The 76ers built around a young Andre Iguodala.
I'm talking about a player that isn't going to carry you the way a top 2-3 draft pick would/should. But a player that you can put with a Monroe and Knight and have a decent young team.
...or I suppose we could try to take the year away and risk that we'll get lucky enough in the lottery to get a top 2 pick. And that player will pan out. And Greg Monroe and Brandon Knight won't want to leave when their contracts are up because we've sucked their whole careers.
That's alot to ask/hope for.
IMO, you have to show improvement now. Not championship improvement, but reasonable signs of getting better. If not, the young guys that you do have either leave...or realize that they're so valuable to you that you have to overpay them (Joe Johnson and the Hawks) and you never have enough to build around them.
OK, beyond the fact that both those guys were drafted by the team that they're with (though not that high) you're basically talking about them building an annual second round exit team, rather than the first round exit team they're building. And that does what, exactly?
The problem is they've spent a number of years not "taking the year away" to chance getting a top pick...last year they would have had to only move up in the lottery one spot for the #3 pick, in 2010 they would have had to move up one spot for the #2 pick, and they were 4 meaningless wins from getting the #1 pick this year. Guess what? Winning a few more games hasn't put any butts in the seats. But it has put this team in a limbo that makes it almost impossible for them to be a championship caliber team.
Monroe isn't a free agent till 2015. There's plenty of time to stink and get a star which would move up the team big time and make him want to stay. And if you can't acquire a star by then? You're better off letting them go because you haven't been winning enough because then you can get back in the lottery and maybe get the next big star. Because you're wasting their careers anyway by having them hang around no man's land with bad lottery picks or lousy playoff teams. Maybe that's what they're doing...riding out the LeBron years, and waiting till they can win again, and just treading water hoping to sell some seats with teams that don't suck but can't win anything in the process. Like riding out till the Jordan years were done.
But that doesn't excite me. The point is to win championships. The way you do that in the NBA is stars, period. And the only way a team like the Pistons gets them is in the lottery. Be awful, stay in the lottery till you get it right, than make a run. Being LeBron and Rose's whipping boy for a decade is a waste of time.
I'm a big fan of picking Robert Sacre in the second round. I believe that he'll be a very productive pro.
To restate what I've posted elsewhere, there isn't a solid, "franchise" SF out there in free agency anytime in the near future. They dont grow on trees. The only way to get one would be through the draft, and they're not lucky enough (or bad enough) to get a top 2 or 3 pick.
It's not that hard to miss when picking in the top 10. Let's look at the five drafts since Darko (which also included TJ Ford, Michael Sweetney and Jarvis Hayes as Top 10 busts), since the career trajectory of those guys is becoming clear. I'm defining "bust" as guys who had virtually no impact on their teams for whatever reason.
4. Shaun Livingston
6. Josh Childress
8. Raphael Araujo
10. Luke Jackson
6. Martel Webster
9. Ike Dioju
You could argue Bargnani is a bust at #1. I'd just say he's disappointing from a #1 pick, but it was a bad draft.
3. Adam Morrison
4. Tyrus Thomas
5. Sheldon Williams
9. Patrick O'Bryant
10. Mouhamed Sene
6. Chairman Yi
7. Corey Brewer (maybe not be a bust, complete role player on his third team, though. Will count as a a half-bust)
8. Brandan Wright
2. Michael Beasley
8. Joe Alexander
That's 17/50 or 33% of the top ten as busts, including 6 in the top 5. Many of those guys were considered "safe," ie they'd played college ball, as well (Beasley, Brewer, Oden, Williams, Morrison, Childress, Jackson). In short, it's pretty easy to miss on a top 10 pick.
And drafting a 6'10 big man who's rail thin (even though I love his game) doesn't exude confidence. Especially when you already have a PF.
Drafting a 6'11 legit big man with NO post moves and who shoots 30% from the free throw line also doesn't give me hope. Especially when he's from the same school as can't miss prospect Hasheem Thabeet.
Who was going to fire him? Mr. D. passed, Mrs. D.was unfamiliar with the biz, and the eventual new owner was unfamiliar with the biz.
Just a random question to Pistons fans. How would you all feel if the Pistons traded out of their spot to get a couple first round picks, like say both of the Celtics first round picks?
If the #9 pick is up and Drummond/Henson are gone, then sure.
but come on man. hindsight is indeed 20/20. Ben Gordon was coming off one of the most incredible first round series ever. He was putting up 50, and playing like a leader in the clutch, and frankly like a superstar. he scored anywhere from 18-20 pts a game. This guy wasnt supposed to be a bust. His mistake was keeping Rip, and not having anywhere to play Stuckey.
As far as Charlie V. i dont have any defense. he is a scorer who doesnt play ANY defense. His contract wasnt ridiculous for what his production had been, but he didnt produce here.
...when it's true.
The Gordon signing made no sense with RIP on the team and still giving some decent production with him being happy. No reason to trade Billups either...Stuckey was perfect for the role he had coming off the bench for the older guys.
He needed to add some beef at SF because LeBron was destroying Tay, instead he drafted Prince 2.0...
Also needed to add a legit big man. Never happened until Monroe fell in our laps.