It would just add to his coaching legend to take a 29-53 team and win a championship within a couple years.
OT: Phil Jackson and the Pistons
At his previous stops.....
Could he do this job from Montana and LA? Because it's hard to see him moving to Detroit, a place that he has no connection with and that is a long way away from his longterm girlfriend, at this point in his life.
I think it's far more likely that this is a one-off consulting thing and is being hyped by the Pistons to generate fan excitement.
You're forgetting Phil Jackson's ego, which landed in Detroit 3 hours before his flight did. This is an attractive job, for not only the reasons I stated (which you likely didn't read), but also for the money Gores would likely pay, and their close relationship.
You kid about being an attractive job right? Phil wants a team ready for rings now. This core is not going to beat the likes of SA. OKC, or the Heat anytime soon. Phil Jackson will not be the coach of the Pistons. Hell I would bet he would have turned it down even coming out of our last championship. It's not a fit.
He never said Phil Jackson would be coach of the Pistons. I'm not saying I agree with what he did say, but at least read the guy's post.
I mean sure, he may have touched some children, but it's Michael Jackson!
There is only one dominant team in this league, and that's Miami. This is a watered down, run of the mill league right now. Every team can be beat, and every team has glaring weaknesses (Save Miami). That's why over the past 8 years, you've seen so many upsets in the playoffs, and teams like Dallas winning the championship. The NBA sucks right now, and if you draft correctly and develop guys like Drummond, you're right there.
beat miami to win the championship...
Why do you single out Dallas? I thought that was a pretty good team. They swept the defending-champion Lakers and then beat the Heat in the Finals . . . what else were they supposed to do?
Previously went to the Finals for years before that. Dirk is a beast.
I did read them. I just don't agree that they constitute proof that he's going to take on a bigger role with the Pistons, particularly one involving day-to-day stuff.
1. The attractiveness of the job. The Piston's pieces are pretty good and they've got some picks and cap room to work with. They don't have a superstar, though, and they're not getting one unless they luck out in the lottery, as the Pistons have never been successful in attracting free agents. The Pistons' promise is not so exceptional, in short, to outweigh the costs of the job, mainly relocating to Detroit from the places where he and his longterm girlfriend live (and where he enjoys being). Add in his reported request to skip road trips when he was negotiating with the Lakers this year, recent hip and knee replacements, and I don't get the sense that he's wanting to try to do a semi-transcontinental commuting thing that the job would likely entail. A fulltime gig in Detroit is just not that attractive for a guy at his point in life.
2. His ego. Phil's ego may be large (and for good reason), but he can essentially choose his job (other than the Lakers, apparently, due to Jimmy/Jenny issues) if he wants to get back into the NBA.
3. The money. Don't see this as exceptional in Detroit versus what he can get elsewhere if he wants this type of job.
4. Relationship with the Gores. This is likely why he's doing this limited consulting thing in the first place.
Andre Drummond could develop into a franchise player. He's got a ton of upside.
I suppose anything's possible, but his offensive game is really rough for anyone who might be considered a franchise player. And his game is not reflective of the way in which NBA basketball is developing.
For 50 years from Mikan to the end of Kareem's career, almost every championship team had an elite offensive center. Since then, there have been two, Hakeem and Shaq, and Shaq had hall of fame wings on his championship teams. I guess you could argue Dwight Howard in his pre-back surgery iteration had the potential, he got the Magic close, but that's a stretch.
Point is that Drummond could develop into a franchise center, but that's become much more of a defensive position (Tyson Chandler, Hibbert) than someone you throw the ball to in order to get points. The Pistons will still have to find an elite wing to get beyond the 6-8 seed range.
Which they might get. You can get lucky and find those guys mid-way through the lottery, particularly, maybe, next year with all the talent that draft will supposedly have. And their core of Knight-Drummond-Monroe will still be young enough that, if they can keep them together, they can provide a good supporting cast. But the Pistons are still going to need to find someone who's an elite scorer and perimeter defender to compete for championships rather than the playoffs.
This is actually a good place to be, there are a ton of teams far worse off. Look at the Nets, they're trapped in cap hell for the foreseeable future and just lost to a team missing its two best players and with the third best hobbled.
But then there were actually teams before Kareem that didn't have it, like the Celtics with Parrish. But if you're talking low post threat, it basically helps to have Jordan or LeBron, or be the Pistons. Because those other champs had Duncan, or Garnett, or Gasol. Even Dirk.
But I basically agree that while the kid is a steal, I'm not sure I see a Hall of Famer there. His ceiling is probably more Tyson Chandler than any if those guys.
Probalem is with that deep draft next year, if their pick isn't top 8 they lose it, because Joe traded it away to fix his Ben Gordon mistake.
You're forgetting Phil Jackson's ego, which landed in Detroit 3 hours before his flight did. This is an attractive job, for not only the reasons I stated (which you likely didn't read), but also for the money Gores would likely pay, and their close relationship.
Phil wouldn't be coaching, he would be overseeing basketball operations. He wouldn't have to do the road trips and the htings he's getting too old for.
He orchestrated the 04 team and has gotten us monroe, knight and drummond with the 7,8, and 9 picks. To me, he's one of the better GMs in the league
Don't forget Rodney White
And they'd tell you they're taking darkro #2 overall
Yep, no doubt— every other GM In the NBA would have picked Darko before Carmelo Anthony, Chris Bosh, and Dwayne Wade.
In that draft, it was pretty clear who the top 3 were even before the lottery. LBJ-Darko-Melo were given as the top 3 picks, there wasn't much, if any, debate surrounding that IIRC. Now it looks foolish in hindsight, but few at the time was calling it a bad pick
There are lots of arguments against Dumars, but the Darko one is not the best. He was considered the best European prospect ever, and the clear-cut #2 guy after LeBron. Dumars's drafting of Darko was similar to his drafting of Knight, Monroe and Drummond - he took the guy everyone expected him to take.
He did build the '04 team, but he also built the unwatchable Pistons of the last few years. It was his moves that brought in Iverson, Ben Gordon, Charlie V and so on.
only made a minimal impact. They weren't going to win another title with that core, so they were destined to make another early playoff exit, which they did that year. When you look at what Chauncey, Rip and the other older guys the past few years, you could understand Joe making the decision to trade or not resign those guys.
And while people want to hate the Gordon, Charlie V signings, who else were they going to sign? Bosh, D-Wade and LeBron were not coming here the following summer. Auburn HIlls/Detroit is not a free agent destination. Look at the other Midwest towns and see how they're doing.
- Minnesota drafted Rubio (who didn't want to come at first) and Kevin Love and they can't crack the tough West.
- Cleveland has a pulse because they sucked and got Kyrie Irving #1.
- Milwaukee got Brandon Jennings in the draft, traded for Monta Ellis and can do no better than an 8 seed in the East with a losing record.
- Indiana is the only good team and they built that team through a couple high draft picks, trades (George Hill), and a FA signing of David West, who was coming off a torn ACL.
Blame Joe for the coaching hires, but you can't blame him if top FA's don't want to come here and the teams have not been historically bad enough to get a top 5 draft pick.
If you don't have a shot at the finals then it's okay to trade your star players who consistently get your team into the playoffs for a lazy washed up whiny piece of garbage? That's an okay move in your opinion?
People still think we traded for Iverson as a player? The main point of that trade was for cap space. Iverson's (huge) contract expired after that year, so either the one-year trial of Iverson proves successful and we can resign him, or we let him walk and get tons of cap space. The trade itself was a good move, allowing us to keep most of our core while creating lots of cap space to position us well for the future. Unfortunately, Dumars completely screwed it up by signing Gordon and Villanueva with the cap space.
I'm not really knocking the Chauncey trade, I understand why it had to be done. And I know that Detroit is never going to attact LeBron and co, but Joe Dumars still overpaid big time for Charlie and Ben Gordon
If you have no chance at signing anyone good with it? Signing bad players just gives you no flexibility and you're still bad. Better not to spend it to facilitate trades or wait for someone better.
And defending Dumars by pointing out other teams got better through the draft is kind of a strange take since Dumars insists they win games at the end of the season and everyone else is tanking, thus killing their chances of getting high lottery picks year after year.
I honestly don't think they are as far from the playoffs as you think. I almost expect them to make it as the 7 or 8 seed next season. Add a lottery pick to the current roster, and a healthy Drummond, and they have a good chance to win enough games to get in.
The 7 and 8 seed in the NBA playoffs is basketball purgatory. You never get a draft pick high enough to be great again, but you're not good enough to win anything. You're just the guys Miami sweeps out of the playoffs every May.
Well, it's important to have at least a decent season next year because the draft pick we gave up to the Bobcats to get rid of Gordon loses a bit of draft protection with each year. So I'd rather get rid of it next year as it's only top 8 protected IIRC, after being lottery protected this year. #1 protected in 2015.
But other than that, I agree. My worst fear is becoming the Hawks or the Nuggets. Decent teams every year, but no chance to go anywhere beyond the second round (though Denver made Conf Finals a couple years ago).
They win the lottery next year, then give up a pick in the twenties the following year.
But Joe would have to nix these "win six of the last nine game" streaks the Pistons go on every year.
(Yes, a top 2 or 3 pick would do...but they need to find a franchise player in it)
How about if we read and comprehend. He said President, not coach.
Over 25 Million in Cap Space
How is that not attractive?
Because no A list free agent is ever going to choose to go play in Detroit.
You can get one hell of a piece as a trade partner with that kind of money.
In a paper I will not mention by name, that was thought to be a serious consideration. Maybe they can sell some people on the idea of making Detroit the Miami of the Midwest.
1 - Trey Burke
2 - Knight
3 - Buy someone for $25 million
4 - Monroe
5 - Drummond
I like that.
It's about the ownership, with the aging (and passing) of Davidson the organization seemed to crumble. I like what Gores is doing in that he may be accepting his limitations in not knowing anything about basketball operations and could bring in a big name irregardless of experience.
But it definitely isn't consistent with Phil Jackson's M.O. He's not noted for being a builder. . .
1. Why couldn't Jackson GM from LA.........Gores ownes from LA. Millen also was a GM from PA..........oops
2. Dumars needs to go. YOu can make the argument that he has developed a foundation the last three drafts but what happens when as soon you are on the cusp of making the turnaround and they start leaving one by one. They don't have long term deals with rookies. They will get 4 years. He is a restricted FA after next year.
When you are not a destination team without an IT factor you are in trouble. Detroit has fallen off the basketball map since our last run and doesn't offer much that would be attractive to someone right now.
if you are or aren't. You should send your response to Joe Dumars. He recent track record with FA's, draft picks and coaches provide you with better fodder.
...does not suddenly make this a FA destination. In fact, you're making an argument to keep him when you mention the foundation developed the last three drafts.
Do you see where Indiana is now? Do you know where they spent four years straight from 06-07 to 09-10? Those four years they were outside of the playoffs. In 2010-11, they got in as an 8 seed with a losing record. They built that team through the draft, a great trade and a free agent signing of a player coming off an ACL injury. And none of these players are max contract guys. And this team was built by Donnie Walsh, considered one of the best GMs in the game.
Joe is following the same blueprint to succeed even if not intentionally. And with over $25 mil in cap space and another top pick this year, he is in position to set this team up for another run of years in the conference finals and NBA finals.
I was not insinuating that Joe D being canned would make the Pistons a FA destination. If anything I would think the opposite is true.
My argument is that the only thing that made Detroit a FA destination was winning. We have fallen way back in that area.
My second point is that the young foundation that those are claiming he is building will be eroding from underneath us. They are four year contracts. First one is up next year.
The inability to lure quality FA pieces have killed us.
I cannot think of another big free agent signing the Pistons have had in 15 years. And he was coming off many injury plagued season.
I think that once you get guys here, they'll want to stay. If Detroit offers one thing that other cities don't is a top notch sports town. Outside of Grant Hill, I'm having a hard time thinking of another player who left here and it wasn't about money (Cliff Avril) or family (Brad Stuart, family in Cali).
All I know about NBA salary caps is that your original team can usually offer you more than the competition when it comes to max contracts. Drummond is the only guy right now that would be projected to command that. If they spend their money right this year and have more success in the draft, this can be a playoff team next year, which will help the winning argument you bring up.
He handled him very well until he coupled him with Flip. Terrible decision.
Final piece to the 2004 team, though he was hurt during the Finals.
Although he wasn't the same player when he arrived, T-Mac
Billups was a FA signing, if that counts.
I think that was his sixth team in six years when he signed with Detroit and was still only an 11PPG scorer for his career. That's not a big signing. That's a good signing that Chauncey turned into a great signing since we finally gave him a chance to play his game. You can argue that Ben Gordon was more highly regarded when the Pistons signed him than Chauncey was.
I believe you're wrong about Monroe, he is no complimentary piece, the thing he has over Drummond is a mid range. Gores is a douche, he didn't allow Dumars to choose a coach, Dumars didn't want Frank, that was all Gores.
Even the Kuester hire wasn't Joe's fault, the Davidson family didn't give him much money to find a coach
.........because Joe was paying several coaches the he had fired.
He has three jobs
So it was his own fault he had a short budget
When Bill Davidson died (r.i.p) his family had zero interest in the team, so when they started trying to sell the Pistons they put a freeze on the team funds. Joe had no choice but to hire a low end coach
He wasn't exactly a big name / big contract guy.
Who hired him?
When they hired Keuster they were paying Sauders, Curry and Keuster.
Joe hired him with limited resources, if you haven't heard.
Dumars takes a lot of heat, but when he came in, he turned a bad team into a contender in no time. Then Bill Davidson forced Larry Brown out, and Dumars was forced to hire the best guy available at the time -- Flip Saunders. Once it was clear Flip wasn't able to win a title like Brown would've (at least one more time), Dumars made some bad panic moves and ended up stuck with them because of the Karen Davidson freeze. Then Gores forced him to hire Frank, which was an obvious bad move at the time.
Nearly every single other GM in the NBA would've taken Darko with the 2nd pick in that draft. There were a couple who would've taken him ahead a Lebron, and a few who would've taken Melo 2nd, but that's it. Melo will clearly never win a title. It's not like there was someone else out there who would've taken Bosh or Wade with that pick anyways, so it's just stupid to keep bringing it up.
From having lived in the Detroit area in the past, I think the criticism of Dumars has a lot to do with race. A lot of white people that live in the Detroit suburbs are basically Kentuckians (I'm white, I can judge free from accusations of racism). These same people are probably the ones excited about Phil Jackson. Jackson is an arrogant pseudo-intellectual who would only lead this team deeper into the hole. Hopefully Gore wises up, stops listening to dumb, hateful suburbanites, and lets Dumars handle the basketball stuff.
Did you not watch any games this year?
And Bynum off the bench
The reasoning behind drafting Darko was that we already had Tayshaun. While Melo has put up great numbers, I don't think he was mature enough to have led us to another title. I'm pretty sure Melo would've left or complained about leaving just like he did in Denver.
I wouldn't go around throwing that accusation about Dumars/race. I think the Piston fans that blame Joe got spoiled during the Bad Boys and Bad Boys II eras, don't follow basketball fully, and can't understand that this is not a FA destination. Joe has always been loved in this area and I believe he has great crossover appeal, not alienating any person with his actions. Anyone getting a boner about Jackson see the rings and that's it.
Gores, never liked the guy. Something feels unauthentic about him, and this is a town that likes those guys who appear to love the area. There's a reason why Brandon Inge is still loved by so many. Same reason why people respect Mr. Ilitch. They want this area to succeed.
People also fail to realize that if the Pistons had selected Melo, a trade for Sheed would have been unlikely, so they probably wouldn't have won the title.
Do you understand that every team in the league wanted Darko? It wasn't a stupid pick. Sometimes it just doesn't work out.
I agree that a certain set of the Pistons fans who blame Joe aren't one who follow basketball fully, but I don't think the "not FA destination" thing promoted in the media really carries much weight. It was just Kobe, and he kinda needs LA.
I'll also clarify that the set of the Pistons fans who blame Joe based on race are blaming him because it's difficult for them to deal with a black person having success in an executive-looking position. It doesn't fit the stereotypes they rely on to deal with their insecurities through general presumptions that they're better than a certain group of others. So they respond to that by projecting. Just like all the other posters who replied to my first post over-dramatically quite obviously really needed to project the feelings that made them uncomfortable onto me in their replies, rather than face who they truly are.
I also agree on Gores. Really, he just seems like someone who isn't all that intuitive but can't accept it and is getting in the way by trying really hard to compensate (obviously I'm judging solely on his bball decisions). Still, he'll have my underwavering support if he goes hands off and doesn't care too much about the luxury tax.
I do not understand why you are so convinced of this racial connection to criticism of Dumars. Again, I don't get the sense that black fans are any more supportive of the guy than white fans are. Moreover, when the Pistons went to six straight Eastern Conference finals, I didn't know anyone who thought he was a bad GM. At most, some thought he wasn't a great drafter but made up for it with good trades/FA signings.
Criticism of Dumars is far more widespread today than it was 5-6 years ago. This is correlated with the Pistons being terrible on the court over that time. That isn't shocking. In this business, people who don't perform take a lot of flack. I haven't totally thrown in the towel on the guy, but I can understand why others might.
Throwing Detroit area white people AND Kentuckians under the bus. Accusing both of being racists.
You sir, are a tool.
...You got real amped up enough about a message board post to post a reply that takes things out of context and adds something extra corny like, "you sir, are a tool." Also, generalizations in my statements probably aren't worth an over-dramatic, sorority girl "wow" response. "OMG! He just threw sorority girls under the bus too!"
I've lived a number of places, and nothing compares to the level of racism I encountered dealing with Detroit suburbanites. They'd always just say these "those people" type of comments to me like I was automatically on board with it because I was white. I remember I used to sometimes even get that occassionally at Michigan, and I'd always be like "wtf, I thought smarter people were supposed to go here." And it would always turn out those students were from the Detroit suburbs.
I think the criticism of Dumars has a lot to do with race. A lot of white people that live in the Detroit suburbs are basically Kentuckians (I'm white, I can judge free from accusations of racism). These same people are probably the ones excited about Phil Jackson.
Whoa. I'm not even that critical of Dumars, but I think this is patently unfair. The Pistons have been terrible for a few years now. It's not unreasonable for people to wonder if Joe D is the right guy for the job. Besides, I'm not sure he's that popular among black fans, either.
Also, your analysis of the origins of the white population isn't very accurate. Downriver, maybe. But I grew up in the northern suburbs and didn't know anyone whose family was from the South. I'm pretty sure most of the white population of the Detroit area is descended from early 20th-century immigrants. All the paczki-eating folks are not transplanted Southerners.
And why would it be "racist" to support Jackson, a guy who's won 11 NBA championships? How many titles does he have to win before people conclude that he's a good coach? It's worth noting that Jordan, Pippen, Shaq and Kobe have won a combined total of one championship when not coached by Jackson.
From having lived in the Detroit area in the past, I think the criticism of Dumars has a lot to do with race.
Dude, when did you leave the metro area - 40 years ago?
If you think support/opposition to Dumars falls along racial lines, you're badly misinformed. Just go to the Detroit News website and look at the comments below the articles on him - you can see the Facebook profile pictures of the people commenting.
At all the people who took that all extra real personally enough to post dramatic "I'm offended" replies on a message board...It was just a few years ago, and I have no qualms in my assessment of the general character traits I encountered.
To accuse someone of racism in this day and age is like calling someone a Communist during the 1950s. It's practically the harshest thing you can say about someone nowadays. Once someone gets labeled "racist," it's really hard for them to shed that label. So you should be careful tossing it around cavalierly.
It sounds like you no longer live in the area, so perhaps you aren't as tuned in as you believe. We're talking about a franchise that hasn't posted a winning season in five years, and hasn't made the playoffs in four. Criticism of team management should not be unwarranted.
Because "racist Kentuckians" love "arrogant pseudo-intellectuals?" Huh?
Jackson mocked Craig Sager's tie in a real a-holish way in a post-game interview (missing the obvious joke), it's clear he's someone to whom small-minded folks probably could relate.
Because that really doesn't make any sense.
The Dumars era is old and stale. He had some good years, but he should have been gone this year to help speed up the eventual change process that is coming.
You know Jackson is married to the Lakers' soon-to-be majority owner, right?
Considering how long it's taken for them to get to that step, I wouldn't be surprised if it takes 10+ years to walk down the aisle.
Jon Gruden was spotted at a Jimmy johns in auburn hills.
He's the next HC. BKFinest it.
The only knock I have towards Dumars was the firing of Frank. They pretty much drained the roster of any serious, playoff talent off the bench setting up for tons of cap space this year and then fired the coach. Frank was working with a team that needed Charlie V kin the roster, a guy who got beat out by a <19 year old for the Dominican Olympic team.
or was trying to get fired. He was hardly in a position to make contract demands after this season and did anyway.
Nothing any team does matters until LeGlobal Icon is out of the league.
It's like when Jordan was in his hey-day. If you're going to be bad, might as well be now, because no one else is winning a title for awhile anyway. Better than being the Utah Jazz or Suns and having good teams when you're going to lose to the Bulls every year.
For reference in this discussion, here is an article from NBA.com which contains portions of the Pistons' formal press release on the subject of hiring Phil Jackson as an advisor - LINK
"“Phil’s role is to advise Joe, Tom and the ownership team, not to assume a formal position inside the Pistons organization,” Barnhill said."
That quote would seem to fit with Jackson's plan to re-insert himself into the NBA, at least to date. There's also been some discussion about Jackson at least listening to the Toronto Raptors about their Basketball Operations position here - LINK
"Jackson, 67, is not actively seeking a return to the NBA as a coach, but rather would covet a leading role in shaping a franchise from the coaching staff to personnel decisions. According to the person familiar with Jackson's plans, he is keeping his options open but seems to prefer a role similar to Jerry West's advisory role with the Golden State Warriors over a team presidency in the Pat Riley mold."
Nobody really seems to know. There is some vauge speculation that teams as diverse as Charlotte and Minnesota have at least inquired, or tried to do so. Phil Jackson mentioned in a San Fransisco Chronicle article that he has been approached by a few teams to be their operational head.
Phil is going to make a couple of phone calls on behalf of Mr. Gores. He'll get a few rejections, and tell Tom that he did the best he could. End of chapter.
I'm just hoping everyone starts a thread with their thoughts on the situation. Why clutter up the original thread?
How old is Phil? Plus, his last days with the Lakers were plagued with health problems and his first sweep he'd ever suffered (to Dallas)
I don't know if he'd help as a coach. I read the other day the Pistons were looking at a Spurs assistant. Sure, they've hired assistants before, and retreads, but I think they should hire another assistant and give him a chance.
Pistons have fallen a long way from that team I grew up watching though, with Chauncey and Rip and Tay and Sheed. Those were the good days.
DEEEEEEEEE-TROIT BASKETBALL (TM)
needs to be on Lettermans Top Ten list...things Phil Jackson would rather do than anything involving the Pistons.
Why are so many people in a rush to downplay Jackson's accomplishments? He's coached 20 seasons in the NBA and won championships in 11 of them. That is incredible. He's not the only coach who's had superstar players. You could turn it around the other way: players under Jackson seem to always reach their potential and buy into his system. Those are two signs of good coaching. Not to mention that these same players never seem to win anything when he isn't coaching them.
Because he's never really developed a team or coached one that had to overachieve. Guys like Larry Brown get credit because they take teams with less talent and do more with them. Or guys like Chuck Daly who are around as the team builds. Heck, even Riley coached the Knicks between stints at LA and Miami.
To say everyone has superstar players is to understate what he's had. Only the best player of all time, maybe the next best shooting guard of all time after the first guy, and one of the top 3 or 4 centers of all time (And if you believe the hype train, another guy who was one of the top 50 players of all time). And some of them with more than one of those guys.
He walked in right when the Bulls were ready to peak, and took over the Lakers again after they had amassed all that talent. The latter because he could. NBA lifers take jobs and coach teams that aren't loaded. He never has. So we'll never know if he can really coach up teams without talent, or he was just really great at managing the biggest of egos and allowing them to succeed.
The Pistons organization has become. Seriously, what the hell are they paying the GM for if they need to keep bringing in consultants? It's even worse that it's a former bitter rival and king douche. It's been obvious that Joe D needed to be canned years ago but Gores obviously can't pull the trigger so instead he comes up with this half assed solution? What a joke.
Is going to have a stretch when they struggle. I think a great comparison to us is the current celtics. The had a team that won the title, they aged, held on to their core too long, and are now forced to redo their roster. We're in better shape than them because we have a GM who is actually good at drafting players, unlike Danny ainge