OT: Phelps or Bolt?
August 21st, 2016 at 9:02 PM ^
Bolt
August 21st, 2016 at 9:05 PM ^
I'm a bit biased toward track and field; and, admitting ignorance regarding swimming, it seems as if swimming lends itself to potential success over a wider range of distances than track and field
August 21st, 2016 at 9:16 PM ^
It's difficult to compare the 2 and say who is better considering they're completely different sports, but it doesn't make sense when people just say Phelps has more medals. Elite swimmers win a lot of medals (obviously not as many as Phelps though). You have to compare how well they stand relative to the rest of their sport, not medals against each other. Bolt's performances relative to the history of sprinting are just as impressive as what Phelps has done.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_multiple_Olympic_gold_medalists There are way more swimmers on this list than "athletics" as Bolt is listed.
August 22nd, 2016 at 11:52 AM ^
That is only if you are Katie Ledecky.
It is truly rare for someone to win gold in mid-distance 200m and long distance (400 & 800m). If they had the 1500m for women she would dominate the field in that race too.
Nathan Adrian who is one of the top sprinters in the world only swims 50 and 100m at the Olympic level.
August 22nd, 2016 at 10:20 AM ^
It's not a simple comparison.
Bolt has been very focus on two very similar activities: sprints of 100m (individual and relay) or 200m. And while no one has been as completely dominant in their diciplines as Bolt, he didn't stretch to take on other events -- the 400m or long jump as might be possible for someone of his athletic capabilities. But Carl Lewis has 9 gold medals and was let down by his teammates (Smith and McNeill didn't complete the exchange within the zone) in a 4x100m that they were leading.
Phelps' didn't out class the field to the same degree as Bolt has, but he also took on a far more difficult task of up to 8 different events and competing in multiple finals in the same session. And he was the greatest in the world for four additional years. And the performance he has in 2008 Beijing is unparalleled in Olympic history. Not only did he win 8 gold, he did so by setting World Records in 7 events and an olympic record in the 8th.
If the result of this survey is who was the most unassailable by their competition (which could be an appropriate definition of dominant), I think it is Bolt.
If the question is who was the greatest, most historic figure, its Phelps.
August 22nd, 2016 at 12:39 PM ^
That says it all. That isn't only a world record, but that is nearly an inhuman time in the 100 meters. The beauty about that accomplishment is that is easily identifible and understood and leaves everyone in awe of it.
August 22nd, 2016 at 3:16 PM ^
I was so darned proud when I did my 10.96 hundred meters. Felt like I was on top of the world. To know that would be about 20 meters behind him boggles my mind.. Astounding...
August 22nd, 2016 at 11:27 AM ^
Harbaugh doesn't like to compare. Remember?
August 21st, 2016 at 9:02 PM ^
I would say Phelps because of the number of unique strokes that he has mastered, but at the end of the day, they are both once in a generation talent. Both should be celebrated within their sport as the best ever.
August 21st, 2016 at 9:19 PM ^
Off topic, but I'll never really understand swimming. What is the point of swimming all these crazy strokes? It's like being rewarded for inefficiency. Are track athletes asked to run backwards? No. So why would swimmers technically compete in anything other than freestyle? Could do various lengths/distances just like track... But what is the purpose of all the different styles? To a novice it seems like a waste.
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August 21st, 2016 at 9:22 PM ^
Seems the same as asking why weightlifters compete in the snatch AND the clean and jerk.
August 21st, 2016 at 9:38 PM ^
I need to start watching more weightlifting
August 22nd, 2016 at 8:14 AM ^
... he said snatch
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August 22nd, 2016 at 10:05 AM ^
you just described the entire range of MGousers Saturday nights.
August 21st, 2016 at 9:24 PM ^
I asked the same thing
August 21st, 2016 at 10:35 PM ^
It's similar to when people think the OL/DL in football just crash into eachother.
If you have zero experience with it, then it seems simpler than it is.
Also Phelps took Gold Medals in 4 Olympics, and Swam in 5 different Olympic Finals, making his olympic finals debut as a 15 year-old.
Phelps won multiple Golds in a single day MANY TIMES, there's almost no sport where that's true.
Usain Bolt is great, but what Phelps did was even more sport-dominant than Bolt.
Even considering the caveat that Sprinting doesn't lend itself as easily to be a multi-event athlete as swimming.
Phelps doesn't lose credit for having an actual opportunity that Bolt doesn't have, the strokes still don't swim themselves. And there are still that many more competitors.
Phelps was like a freaking Pokemaster beating different gym-trainers in different specialties the way he beat different specialist in all sorts of different strokes and distances.
Also, there were a few extremely young gold-medal winning swimmers (akin to Phelps in 2000 and 2004) from the last Olympics in London and Beijing, and guess what? Some of them didn't even medal this year.
Phelps hands down.
August 22nd, 2016 at 1:29 AM ^
Not what I learned playing Electric Football™.
August 21st, 2016 at 9:30 PM ^
The novice in you doesn't understand how very different the techniques are. I, for example, can't swim, breastroke to,save my life, despite being very proficient in two other strokes. For Phelps to put all four together dominantly (4 consecutive golds in 200 IM) strikes me as nothing short of incredible.
I don't deny Bolt's greatness. But for those of you bemoaning the lack of event diversity available to him...why doesn't he run the 110 hurdles?
August 21st, 2016 at 10:06 PM ^
Bolt doesn't run hurdles because he'd probably do as well as phelps would do if he competed in backstroke or breaststroke .
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August 21st, 2016 at 10:30 PM ^
Phelps pushed himself to compete in strokes he wasn't the best at, that's how he got to 8 golds. Bolt never tried to push himself past sprinting and that is why dominant, he never did something that hadn't been done in a single Olympics before.
They both have longevity, Phelps has won two event 4 times in a row that had never been done and bolt won three times in a row. But Phelps had the single greatest Olympics of all time whIle multiple runners have won the 100 and 200 in the Same Olympics.
August 21st, 2016 at 11:07 PM ^
Phelps got to 8 golds because the US has the strongest swim team in the world and therefore have most of the strongest relay teams. No way you're winning all those relay golds without help.
I give him a lot of credit for being strong enough in breast and back to dominate IMs but I'd hardly call that pushing "himself to compete in strokes he wasn't the best at." Again, he's not competing in backstroke or breaststroke. It would be ridiculous and foolhardy for him to try.
You're being so obtuse by pointing out multiple runners have won the 100 and 200 in the same Olypmics. While that may be true, no one has ever accomplished that in 2, let alone 3 Olympics. You also neglect to acknowledge that swimmers' careers are longer than sprinters'.
While Phelp's accomplishments are unmatched, you can also wonder what might have been if swimming were more lucrative in Mark Spitz's day. It's not unreasonable to surmize he couldn've had over 20 gold medals.
August 22nd, 2016 at 6:59 AM ^
It would've been ridiculous for Phelps to compete in breast or back because he would've had to drop other events to do so. What you neglect to acknowledge is that Bolt ran seven times; Phelps swam twelve times. And to win his eight golds in Beijing, he would've had to swim a minimum of 18 times. When would you like for him to squeeze in another discipline?
August 22nd, 2016 at 10:00 AM ^
Did you consider the context of the post to which I replied? I even stated it would be ridiculous for him to compete in other events. Pro Phelps guys always seem to point out the fact that Bolt doesn't do any events outside of his 3. I don't think these guys realize that the mechanics of butterfly and freestyle are very similar. Phelps isn't swimming the wide breadth of disciplines as they seem to imply.
August 22nd, 2016 at 10:26 AM ^
Wait a sec - the mechanics of fly and free are similar? Not even close to true. If anything, backstroke and freestyle are far more similar. Literally the only similar thing is that you use an overhand motion with your arms. Otherwise:
- there is a rhythm to fly that doesn't exist in free
- you breathe in front vs. to the side
- you have a different kick - dolphin vs. flutter
- you use both arms at once vs. one at a time
- you lift up out of the water instead of staying in it
- you undulate your body instead of rotating and twisting it
I think it's the pro-Bolt crowd that downplays what Phelps does because they think swimming strokes are similar, when in fact they are nothing like each other. Many freestylers literally never even learned how to swim butterfly and would flounder around like breaching whales if you asked them to try.
August 22nd, 2016 at 11:44 AM ^
I mean, I'm kinda on your side here, but this:
"Many freesylers literally never even learned how to swim butterfly and would flounder around like breaching whales if you asked them to try."
What?! That might be the most insane comment I've seen on the MGoBoard. Every competitive swimmer past the age of 8 or so learns how to swim fly and swims fly in practice. They may not be good at it, they may not compete in it, but everyone learns and swims it. Let's not be so dramatic.
August 22nd, 2016 at 12:13 PM ^
I was sorta with him all of those points, but he totally lost me with that last comment.
August 22nd, 2016 at 1:50 PM ^
You're not going to like it, but I'm going to double down on that controversial comment. Possibly "never learned to swim it" is an exaggeration, but I did swim competitively and I know very well that by high school, swimmers are already specialized and some would've been a disaster in their non-specialized strokes.
I'm sure the truth is closer to "many don't know how to swim butterfly" (which is what I said) than "everyone knows how to swim butterfly", in no small part because I knew quite a few competitive swimmers who did very well at one thing or another but there were also strokes where they would've floundered. For sure, precious practice time is not spent past age 12 or so (and definitely not in high school) trying to make distance freestylers practice their butterfly or backstrokers finesse their breaststroke technique - unless they're making IM part of their repertoire.
August 22nd, 2016 at 2:19 PM ^
The truth is not closer to "many don't know how to swim butterfly."
I swam competitively and everyone I know who swam competitively knows how to swim butterfly. Not everyone is going to swim it fast, but they can swim it.
I agree with you that some would have been a disaster. For example my friend who swam the 50 and 100 freestyle was terrible at breaststroke, but he can and knew how to swim breaststroke.
August 24th, 2016 at 2:29 PM ^
I swam competitively, too, up through high school. Everyone on my team swam fly in practice. Not every practice, and not when we were at the point where training was focused on athletes' specific events, but certainly during the build parts of the training block. Some people swam it like crap, but they swam it.
My wife swam back and free at Michigan. I asked her about it, and she said "Not much. Maybe twice a week for IM sets."
August 22nd, 2016 at 12:11 PM ^
I still think the flly is the most similar stroke to freestyle but we're not going to change each other's opinion.
Phelp's specialty is butterfly. Anyone that is great at fly will probably be at least good at freestyle. I agree that the fly is the most difficult stroke and not everyone can master it.
Why do you consider me pro-Bolt? Because I provide counterarguments to the pro-Phelps guys? I appreciate both guys for different reasons. Bolt is so dominant. Has he ever lost? He's also very cocky in a manner that is likable and not off-putting. People question why he doesn't participate in more events and I think the simple answer is there's no money in it. I don't think there would be any ROI if he tried to win long jump.
I also respect the hell out of Phelps' accomplishments. I won't see them rivaled in my lifetime and he's truly a special athlete. The sheer amount of will, determination, discipline, and athletic prowess he possesses is truly unique. He's a generational talent like Spitz was before him. Just like Owens was before Bolt.
One final point to consider for those that use medal count as a reason for Phelp's superiority: The list of Olympians with the most medals is littered with swimmers and gymnasts. Don't you think that weakens the argument?
August 22nd, 2016 at 1:57 PM ^
That's a true statement, but it would make a stronger argument if the previous swimming record was more than 12. It would weaken the argument for Phelps if his count were not much bigger than the rest of the field. But with only two Olympians in history that can even claim half his total (neither of which are swimmers), no, I think the most-medals argument is still strong.
August 22nd, 2016 at 7:57 AM ^
You do realize 1/3 of Bolts golds were also relays right?
Furthermore you site the fact that Bolt was the first to complete the triple in the 100,and 200 as his defining feat. Yet Phelps also became the first guy to accomplish that feat in the 200 m medley 4 times.
You cant really claim age feats either, considering Bolts greatest threat in these Olympics Gaitlin was older, and Carl Lewis was winning gold at 35, Michael Johnson at 33. Track and field stars usually last longer than swimming stars.
So before calling others obtuse, do your homework son.
August 22nd, 2016 at 9:44 AM ^
First of all, I'm not your son and I didn't "site" anything. Given your attitude, I would think using your middle finger would be a natural reaction and typing "c" would be easier than "s".
Second, when did I claim "Phelp is tainted?" I replied to a poster mentioning the 8 Golds in Beijing. That's a feat that I don't see being surpassed. I was pointing out that Phelps had a lot of help in that accomplishment because he was on the best relay teams.
And LOL at your citing golds for Lewis and Johnson in non-sprinting events. Bolt is a sprinter though I have no doubt he woud be one of the best in the 400m.
It's too bad you don't appreciate Bolt's accomplishments because he's not trying to be Jim Thorpe or Jesse Owens. What's wrong with just sprinting and being the best at it, ever? The fact you put Carl Lewis in the same conversation with him is laughable.
August 22nd, 2016 at 10:01 AM ^
How is putting Carl Lewis in the conversation laughable? Is there something that diminished his accomplishments? He has 9 Olympic gold medals. the same number as Bolt.
In 1984 Los Angeles, Lewis won four gold medals: 100m, 200m, 4x100m and the Long Jump. Four gold medals in a single Games is not something Bolt even attempted.
In 1988 Seoul, Lewis won gold in the 100m, long jump and silver in the 200m. The US 4x100m team fumbled the baton and was DQ and Lewis didn't have a chance at a medal.
August 22nd, 2016 at 12:25 PM ^
I admit I'm not giving enough deference to Lewis' accomplishments but I think Bolt's resume is easily more impressive given the manner he dominates. He doesn't even lose outside of the Olympics.
You do fail to mention that Lewis won one of his golds because of Ben Johnson's dq. Also, that Lewis himself failed 3 drug tests leading up to those Olympics. Lewis openly lamented the use of PEDs ruining the sport. Perhaps he was well-versed in their use.
August 22nd, 2016 at 3:17 PM ^
"How is putting Carl Lewis in the conversation laughable?"
Because Bolt is an almost infinitely better sprinter than Lewis.... just like it'd be laughable to put Bolt in the conversation with Lewis if we were talking field events.
Bolt has 9 sprinting gold medals, 6 of them individual.
Lewis had 5 sprinting gold medals, 3 of them individual - but the Eastern Bloc and Cuba didn't compete in 1984, and he actually got killed in 1988 in the 100M but won because Johnson failed a drug test.
Lewis was a very good sprinter - but he never dominated in the way Bolt has... and he had several failed drug tests.
August 21st, 2016 at 9:31 PM ^
How is this so different from steeplechase obstacles or hurdles?
August 22nd, 2016 at 8:51 AM ^
Because nobody who does steeple chase or hurdles does sprints. It shows that the events are much more different than in swimming, where phelps is hardly the only person to compete across events
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August 21st, 2016 at 9:54 PM ^
Bolt. phelps is the best at the second fastest stroke. so basically who give a crap how u swim just get there the fastest. nobody tells u how to run. phelps isn't as dominant at the fastest stroke. all these swimming events are pretty silly. why not have backwards racing and speed walking olympic events?
August 21st, 2016 at 10:23 PM ^
Race walking is indeed an olympic sport.
August 22nd, 2016 at 9:19 AM ^
And, like the butterfly, is silly
August 22nd, 2016 at 12:07 AM ^
I agree with this. The point of running is to get from point A to point B the fastest. So why shouldn't swimming follow the same logic?
August 22nd, 2016 at 6:34 AM ^
What is the point of swimming all these crazy strokes? It's like being rewarded for inefficiency.
But you like hurdles, right?
August 22nd, 2016 at 8:50 AM ^
Not really. Especially when you're allowed to knock them down without any penalty. Weird event. Also, how many hurdlers also compete in sprints versus how many freestyle swimmers are able to compete in other swimming strokes? It shows that the two aren't all that comparable.
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August 22nd, 2016 at 9:37 AM ^
If competing across disciplines in T&F was as unachievable as you make it out, there'd be no such thing as the decathlon. But at any rate, the swimming is a LOT less compatible across disciplines than you believe. None of the 50m sprinters competed in any other event, except that a few of them swam the 100m.
Want to know how many of the men medaled in more than one stroke? Two. Phelps, who's been doing it for years, and Chad Le Clos. And actually, freestyle swimmers almost never even compete in other strokes, while IMers almost never get on the freestyle relays. It's much rarer than you think. One of the biggest reasons it seems like a thing that happens all the time, is that Phelps has been doing it for so long.
August 22nd, 2016 at 1:34 PM ^
except that nobody in the decathalon could win a medal in the individual events, unlike the medley.
ashton eaton's pb 100 m time is 10.21, which wouldn't even qualify for the 100 m individual event (need 10.16).
August 22nd, 2016 at 3:20 PM ^
"If competing across disciplines in T&F was as unachievable as you make it out, there'd be no such thing as the decathlon."
The decathlon IS a discipline, not competing cross disciplines.
There isn't a single world class decathlete that is competitive in any of the individual events which make up the decathlon.
August 22nd, 2016 at 9:26 AM ^
If you want to put obstacles in the pool, no problem. Using slower strokes is legit sport, but the proper analogy a stonewalling or backward running or skipping, none of which I care to watch. Bolt has been the fastest human alive for 12 years. Almost everyone on earth gets to find out whether they're fast then compete if they wish. Very few find out whether they are great swimmers. Bolt is the winner here.
August 22nd, 2016 at 9:42 AM ^
Hurdling is just less efficient running, the same as doing another stroke.
Bolt is insanely good at doing one thing, but he'd lose almost every competition you care to put him in against Phelps. If you think "greatest athlete" means doing only one thing really really well, then you can have Bolt, but there's a reason the Olympic motto doesn't just stop at "Citius."
August 22nd, 2016 at 10:40 AM ^
Test of athleticism. A little more obscure than a sprint, a long jump or a high jump, but something that mimics what one encounters in the natural environment. I see no point in the butterfly other than its being a way to expand swimming events (and it looks cool). As mentioned previously, I don't doubt the legitimacy of the sport. I just don't give it the weight of more basic tests.