Damn, Chad Pennington lit someone up that day.
OT: Penn State emails reveal... stuff
between "heard something about" and "knew". It's worth remembering that the rumor hit this board some months before the story broke--the board scoffed.
Apparently Graham Spanier has an interesting history in regards to sex abuse scandals. Google "Franklin Scandal Graham Spanier" if interested.
Holy shit. It is a longshot to consider that this is why Penn St. hired him.
I honestly thought this would go away. I work with several Penn State alumni. They are just as sick about this as the rest of us and are personally embarassed by it all. I had hoped for them that it would be over. This is just nauseating but no one should be surprised. This is data that you could have reasonably interpolated just looking at the career arcs of the people involved. A nice little conspiracy. This is why I take issue with the whole, "this happens all the time/Genovese syndrome" spiel being effused here and in the blogsphere this past week.
Its like Dorian Gray, and now the fun part, we get to see the painting.
That's well put.
Wow. Just watched the CNN report. Assuming it's accurate, that's a smoking gun on Spanier, Paterno, et al.
Would you mind summarizing for those of us who didn't get to see?
I love sports. Especially college. From D1(yes, I still call it that) to D3. Having been closely associated with both sides (college administration and athletic departments) there is a very real truth I have had to accept in my adult life. The majority of coaches and people associated with the athletics department are arrogant jerks who only care about one thing, their individual program. Yes, even the guys we love and support. You think Bo or Woody wouldn't have been a pain in the ass when they really wanted something? Often times this behavior is supported all the way to the regents or board of directors. I have witnessed the highest level of administration try to reel in out of control head coaches only to have that coach go directly to the chairman of the board to get their way. Sadly, a large contingent of board members have forgotten the core purpose of academics and view these coaches as idols which clouds their judgement. If I have witnessed this at every college level, imagine the influence someone like JoPa would have had at Penn State. And think how much every board member would have fawned all over him. In many ways, it's no different than how coaches and teachers fawn over talented athletes in high school and college. This is the very real and sad part of college athletics for me.
Your post makesme even happier that we have a person like Brady Hoke coaching Michigan.
Do you somehow beleive that Penn State fans thought Jo Pa was some corrupt child molesting enabler when they hired him in 1966? 46 years of power can corrupt./blind ANY man. Yes, even Brady Hoke.
Thats why institutions have checks & balances, because a culture of hero worship, $ chasing and virtually limitless authority can poison any organization if left unchecked and given enough time.
Jo Pa was probably a beacon for integrity for most of his carrer, but too much time around fawning yes men, influental donors, and spineless/corrupt administrators can twist the values you begin with over time.
It's a sad reality but it can serve as a template for Michigan & other organizations to fully investigate any irregularities quickly & thoroughly; it can only help Brady Hoke and other good coaches retain the character they begin their tenures with.
Probably should have read BlueinTexas' post more clearly since I practically paraphrased everything he said. any way, "absolute power blah blah blah . . ."
But you've got to ask . . . what compels a man to stay on 46 years, even after it's become apparent that he can't handle all the aspects of the job like he once could? It's not like he had to keep that job forever. Remember, PSU once tried to get JoePa to retire (in 2002?) and he basically told them, "Get off my lawn."
I could be wrong, but I just don't see Brady Hoke as the type to cling desperately to power and chase after win records. I don't see JoePa as a product of 46 years of power. I see it as the reverse. I think we dodged a bullet not hiring the guy.
and you may be absolutely right, there COULD be a character flaw in Jo Pa that was there from the beginning that led to all of this. . . but that character FLAW might be part of what makes a high profile football coach successful?
Is it competitiveness, motivation, having the willpower to run a premire football program?
I think Hoke & JoPa (and other successful coaches) probably share an awful lot of personality traits, certainly when they are both young/middle aged. But what happens when conditions are ripe for corruption and moral decay to occur?
It's a recipe:
Combine one part type A personality, with equal parts ultimate authority & pressure.
stir in a never-ending stream of money and prestige.
Sprinkle with corrupt cowworkers and selfish underlings.
Set temperature to success, bake for 46 years.
I assure you that the tired, perhaps twisted old man that emerges will be a shadow of his former self.
I sincerly hope Brady Hoke isn't the type of person to cling to power the way Jo Pa did, but I also have to admit that he's human, and that worshiping him as anything but is exactly the way it started 46 years ago at Penn State.
Sorry, but that recipe doesn't work on all people. Power and fame doesn't have to corrupt, some people have core values where people matter more than programs, institutions or reputation.
but tell me; how many contemporary people you know of that have a 46 year tenure of being the head of (or at least the face of) a glamorous, prestigious, money making organization where you are worshiped by children and presidents alike?
There are very few kings in the world anymore for a good reason.
JoPa is unique due to his longevity (which I'm sure was part of the problem).
I'm 100% confident that Brady Hoke won't last 46 years as Michigan's head coach.
I'm 99% confident he wont last 26.
I'd be absolutely thrilled with just his 10 best, and get out before it kills him.
As a huge bugs bunny fan, I have no intention of getting in a fight with Elmer. There are always individual exceptions to the norm, but from personal experience, the majority of head coaches have egos beyond belief. It is partially what drives them to be good at what they do. Unfortunately, it is a very negative characteristic once they get outside of their realm.
Makes you wonder what really happened to Ray Gricar, the missing DA who investigated Sandusky. Did he know too much?
Warning: Freep link. http://www.freep.com/article/20120629/COL10/206290373/Rochelle-Riley-Do-...
Given the other high profile cases Gricar was involved with (mobs and drug rings), it's extremely unlikely that Gricar's disappearance had anything to do with PSU and the Sandusky investigation.
Perhaps but I wouldn't automatically rule it out. I'd venture to guess there was much more money on the line for PSU than any mob/drug operation. With what is coming out about the "leaders" at PSU, would you really be shocked?
You can say that psu under Paterno and Spanier was organized crime. I wouldn't be shocked.
I think those calling for Penn St. to be punished by the NCAA or Big Ten (ie. scholarship losses, bowl bans, expulsion) are a bit over reaching here. Yes, there was a coverup, yes, JoePa and all these guys deserve to be exposed, yes, this whole thing is awful. This is a tragedy that no one would wish on their worst enemy.
However, the players on the team now and the coaching staff now (which from a quick google search appear almost all new except for Larry Johnson) don't deserve to have to suffer for this any more. For one, the stigma around their program is already a huge punishment. Additionally, NCAA/Big Ten punishments like these described are mostly deterants. I think these mechanisms are completely inappropreate for this problem.
Did they replace the entire board of trustees? Wait, they knew nothing.....nevermind.
Agreed. Fire them all. Go after them in the legal system if they can prove something, which is better equiped to handle this. Make the school and football program pay huge damages to the victims. I'm agree with all this.
I just think that expelling Penn State from the Big Ten and/or NCAA sanctions such as bowl bans and scholarship reductions misses the point and punishes the players and current coaches crimes they didn't commit.
The coaches knew what they were getting into when they took the job there now. They will find new work. Allow all the players to transfer without having to sit out a year. There are more people in the shadows that make a lot of money off penn state who knew about this as well and they won't go punished if nothing is done. This case is huge, more will come out and we haven't even come close to knowing all the dirty secrets in Happy Valley. This will not end well for psu.
Not to specifically call you out Nikj, but as much as Michigan fans (including me) love to evoke "The Team, The Team, The Team" I always find it odd when anyone says "but the current players shouldn't have to suffer for someone else's mistakes". What makes college football so great is that it is not about just the current players and coaches. It is about the program. This IS about teaching young men this type of behavior (by all those responsible) is not acceptable. This is bigger than just the current players and coaches at Penn State.
Agree mostly. But punishing current players for past transgressions is horseshit. Its not about cfb being above the rules it's about a 19 yr old kid who is trying to get through school by working his ass off on and off the field. Punishing them for something in the past they had nothing to do with is like saying guns kill people.
I don't think that the team should have the death penalty. I believe that the program needs to have some sort of penalty. This cover up was done to keep the image of the program and allow money to keep flowing in to the university. If the team is still there, the student athletes can still ". . . get through school by working his ass off." If the student athlete wants to compete at a high level, let them transfer to another school penalty free. If their desire is to keep playing for PSU no matter the cost, that would be their choice.
BTW - If the death penalty were to happen (I doubt it and think it would be horrible if it did), that doesn't mean the players would lose their scholarships. They still could work their asses off, just more so in the classroom then in the weightroom.
This like saying don't put a guy in prison because he has kids that are that did nothing to lose a father. Punishment always hurts innocent people.
I agree this is bigger than the coaches and players at Penn St. I also don't usually agree the arguement that the current players shouldn't be punished for past infractions (ie, I agree with punishing USC or OSU for what they did to gain an advantage). I just think that NCAA/Big Ten infractions/expulsions are inappropriate in this case. I don't want to confuse the issue, I think these guys who covered this up and the main perpetrator himself and anyone who knew about it should be dealth with by the legal system (which is far more serious than the NCAA and Big Ten).
I think that a lot of this is about our anger over what happened and the nature of those crimes. If this was about a crime that is equally serious, but different in nature (let's say covering up a murder by a former coach, or 10 murders to make the point that much more serious), would we be calling for the NCAA to give out sanctions or the Big Ten to expel Penn St? Maybe, maybe not. How about if it's a major embezzelment that involves hundreds of people losing everything they had? Where do we draw the line? What happens if we find out 5 years from now that Woody Hayes covered up a murder by an assistant coach when he was head coach at OSU? Do we want the Big Ten give them the boot too?
The institution of Penn St. University is severely damaged by this and the people that perpetrated this deserve punishment and that the school deserves to pay damages for employing people who would cover this up. But in terms of the NCAA and Big Ten taking action, I think they should not do anything except for reach out to help the victims in whatever way they can.
Yes, if the university had covered up murders I would want them expelled too. The university's damaged but not enough in my book. Do they deserve all the money they will be getting from being a member of the Big Ten(network contracts, bowl money and so on), no they do not. They chose their path and now need to take their medicine. Go find money somewhere else, do not take our money while disgracing the league.
Too go further on your examples yes they should be gone if they had done any of those. This was a massive conspiracy and cover up by a state institution that happened over many years. Many profited from children being victimized and punishment must be doled out heavily. It was a former player and coach who used the university as a tool to victimize young children while they knew about it and did nothing. Fall they must and hard they must fall.
The team will still benefit from the cover up if nothing happens to them. Look at their recruiting now. They are pulling in players right and left. Will this slow down in thext couple of months? Yup. Will the public forget about this issue after a coule of months? You bet they will. It will be business as usual for the football team. That's what I have have a problem with. The football organization was never dealt with.
Do I think they should be expelled from the Big 10? Nope. Do I think they should get the death penalty? Nope. Do they need to be taken down somewhat? Yes. If they don't, the cover up that happened will have worked. They will have successfully saved the prestige (not image) of Penn State Football. Just as the players were lining up to play for Tressell while OSU was under investigation and Carroll with USC was going through their issues as well, they are still lining up to play for PSU. The tradition, culture, and history of PSU is and will stand. They have 14 commitments for the 2013 class and half of them are 4 stars! All of them committed after charges were filed last November. In fact, the DA is so worried about re-election (or PSU football is so important to him) that he waited to press charges AFTER Paterno won the game to give him the all time win reciord. Even in prosecuting, PSU football was more important than the lives of the victims. No, they need sacntions. They need bowl bans, scholarship and/or recruiting limits, or other penalties. Yes, the current players will be put out by it. They can still be part of the team on scholarship or they should be allowed to transfer without penalty.
It sucks for the players, yes. But that's how it's gotta be. The program and the school have to be punished.
Lock up every person that can be connected and fine PSU the amount of every persons salaries who had knowledge for every year that person had knowledge until the story broke. Put that money to a charity that helps abused children.
If only it was that easy.
There's a reason why the Board of Trustees looked into going Private. This is only the tip of the iceberg.
Cover ups have to be punished as harsh as possible. Unfortunately, we are not going to wipe crime off the face of the earth but there are people in place at companies and institutions that are responsible for dealing with the crimes when they find out.
By not acting properly, they allow the crimes to possibly continue. It is just as bad as the person committing the crime. It is not always easy or popular but they are compensated very well to do their jobs. They didn't, crimes continued. punish them as severely as possible.
never in my wildest dreams did I think people here would seriously discuss dropping PSU from the conference. But it's not a stretch or that farfetched.
That's something about the Big Ten that, in my opinion, is different from a lot of other conferences. Some call it a superiority complex, but I think it's more than that.
From academics to athletics, the Big Ten has always prided(?) itself on doing things the right way, and that is a huge source of pride for fans of Big Ten teams. It is probably most apparent in Michigan fans, which is where we get the "we're better than everyone else" vibe.
That perception of the Big Ten has probably changed with the OSU and PSU scandals (and the media blowout of our "scandal"), but for the longest time when you spoke of "clean" programs, the list would start with Big Ten teams.
The SEC has won a lot of titles recently, there's no denying that. But the Big Ten will not corrupt their morals in order to compete on their level. Before oversigning was addressed by the NCAA, the Big Ten had rules in place to prevent it. They had a "we will do things the right way even if it puts us at a disadvantage" approach.
That's where this indignation stems from. We have such high expectations for our programs and conference as a whole. We do things the right way, and we wish to uphold that reputation, even if it means losing a historic program like PSU (I am speaking only of our fans on this board who have mentioned booting PSU. I can't extrapolate beyond that). If (forbid) something similar happened at Michigan, I would understand (though be pretty pissed about) other programs feeling the same way about us. There is a reputation to uphold, and a scandal like this can be a leach on the perception of the conference. One corrupt and flawed program can drag the rest of the conference down with it.
I'd be curious to know how some of the other fanbases feel about the topic of revoking PSU's membership, both Big Ten and other conferences.
Another little know fact is the missing DA. Way back when Sandusky was first charged, something happened behind a closed door. The DA, Ray Gricar, dropped the charges, stepped down and eventually went missing. His car was found empty on the side of the road and his body never found.
He was in some some pretty high profile drug and organized crime trials. Any one of those could have led to him gone missing.
Not that this is the important part of all this, and not that I can even remember what goes on in a teenager's head anymore, but how do you recruit kids to that program now? I don't think "come to penn shtaaaaaate!!!" is gonna work for them anymore.
2001. Bastards. Rewatch the video where JoePa blithely says 'think/pray for the children". He and his clan can take the 400+ wins and shove them up their butts.
Waking up and reading this post while my three young boys bounce around watching cartoons and eating cheerios makes me want to go postal on everyone involved.
It still seems like an incredible coincidence that the s**t didn't hit the fan until right after JoePa got his precious win record.
Yeah. JoePa did what he could alright. He did what he did to preserve his precious record. Bastard. Dirty Bastard.
Nobody writes e-mails with quotation marks.
You have to watch the video. It's a re-creation of the emails, not a photo of the emails themselves.
I think Joe stayed with Penn State in order to cover up the Jerry Sandusky incidents. Paterno couldn't retire. He knew the whole mess would be exposed after he retired.
Paterno represents lack of leadership in my book. He will always be less than a man.
He had an opportunity to be a real hero, but he chose to put his head in the sand instead.
To hell with Joe Paterno!