From Anderson Cooper 360 tonight:
(H/T Scott Bell, @sbell021)
Holy shit. That is all.
1) These victims are going to own Happy Valley, and a good portion of central Pennsylvania.
2) Holy Stupid Thing To Write Down, Batman
I didn't see any other existing email than this screen shot so I may be speaking with only having partial info...but...
legally speaking, can you really tie this email to this scandal? Common sense says yes, but is there enough there to make a concrete link?
To be useful (or admissible) they'd have to establish a connection to the scandal. But if I were a betting man, they'll be able to link this to the Sandusky stuff.
My guess is. that someone will trade information for a lighter sentence or be a aprosecution witness.
I believe. PSU has never. a had a major. NCAA violation. Maybe this is the reason why.
Isn't the bar lower?
Ugh... makes me want to throw up. I hope this is the worst of it because I can't take too many more of these stories coming out.
Remember all the talk when this first broke about kicking Penn State out of the Big Ten, or even the Death Penalty? I think they are going to do that to themselves based on the fact that information of the cover up keeps on dropping... sheesh, Penn State will no longer be a major University soon at this rate... As BiSB stated, the victims are going to own Penn State.
This story gets sadder and sadder by the day. I would like to think that they would have done the right thing when the accusations involved children... absolutely sickening... I know neither Bo nor Woody, both rest in peace, would have let this go down this way.
Can't say I'm surprised.
Can someone explain to me why Penn St shouldn't get the Death Penalty? Or at the very least, be removed from the B1G?
I actually agree, but at this rate they will do it themselves.
Punishing an entire community for the acts of a few is cruel and unusual punishment.
Yes, this is nauseating, but the sins belong to those who did the covering up, not all of Penn State.
Life isn't fair. This isn't just a couple of rogue higher ups at Penn State. This was a colossal cover-up that implicates almost everyone in power at the school including the one guy (sorry JoePa. RIP) who everyone else would take their cue from.
Sorry. The fact that this cover- up effectively allowed Sandusky to rape children for at least a decade is the point. How many kids could have been saved from that monster if just ONE person did the right thing?
It's embarrassing to have Penn St represent the B1G
is probably how the current administration feels
Agreed. The poster isn't suggesting that the entire university be put down. Just the football program. Can't say I disagree.
Cutting the football program would entail removing scholarships from current players, yes? How is that fair to them? They had nothing to do with the scandals. Your anger at PSU is fully understandable but punishing current players who I think it's safe to say had nothing to do with the scandalous incidents is simply wrong.
Why would cutting the football program remove scholarships from anyone? PSU could keep paying out all of the current scholarships without fielding a team; I guess they could choose not to pay scholarships, but one last PR nightmare over their former football team probably isn't what they want.
You know what else is cruel and unusual? Covering up a child molestation scandal so a football program can keep its reputation.
1) That's not how "cruel and unusual punishment" works.
2) When the "few individuals" involved are powerful forces at the university, it isn't unreasonable to punish the university. It isn't like they'd be punishing PSU because of some drunk sophomore frat guy.
But a public university is essentially a charitable institution intended for the public good. Private corporations that have capital (i.e. are solvent) can be punished monetarily, sending the signal to its shareholders that they shouldn't put their capital in the hands of knuckleheads. Here, you would (potentially, at the extreme) accomplish elimination of the largest public university in Pennsylvania at the expense of the entire citizenry of Pennsylvania. From the perspective of Pennsylvania, there is no "them" here to blame, only "us."
I have not heard it discussed much, but as a lawyer I would be shocked if Penn State is not entitled to sovereign immunity as an arm of the state. (I'm not a Pennsylvania attorney and I don't know whether Pennsylvania gave PSU immunity from suits. If they didn't, they might want to consider it for the future for its public universities.)
from what I've read, it's murky. Both are protected from FOIA requests (at least to some extent) and have argued for years that they're not a state arm. Neither is considered a public school in PA, but are "state-related". The NYT quoted a Philadelphia lawyer claiming that this would allow suits to be filed, although there were quotes from a Duke Law professor saying otherwise.
Blue in South Bend is a mod, and some degree of politeness is therefore required, I suppose. But he's being far too nice.
SalvatoreQuattro's use of this phrase is possibly one of the stupidest fucking examples thereof made this year. By anyone, anywhere.
agrees with your statement that punishing everyone for the acts of a few is bad. That is all.
That in many cases, several people are punished for the acts of a few. Had Penn State immediately taken away the creep's office and other perks and called the cops, this might not be an issue. I think it's a bit of a cover up and perhaps the program should face the consequences.
Hopefully there are a just a few people involved in this potential cover-up. Penn State is still a great institution. Let the corrupt few go to jail. I'm not in favor of kicking them out just for shock value.
Because the mistakes, though unbelievably disgusting and unforgivable, shouldn't bring down an entire university.
I think you and I have a very different opinion of what a mistake is. A kid shoplifting is a mistake. A coordinated effort to cover up and allow child rape is not a mistake. They chose to keep the image of the athletic department and the university over the welfare of children vulnerable from an unstable homelife. Spanier, Curley, Schultz, and Paterno all schemed to keep this a secret for the benefit of themselves and the university. The university atheletic department benefitted by keeping their money from lawsuit, their image and Joe Paterno's image intact, and the alumni and donators are none the wiser.
They knew what they were doing, they knew there were ramifications, they knew they were taking a risk. This is an excerpt from an email Spainer sent:
It makes me wonder, is the football program under a single NCAA sanction right now?
PSU is not under any NCAA sanctions at this time related to Sandusky. My feeling is they should be, regardless of the fact that JoePa, who was involved in the cover-up, is gone.
The NCAA should use this as an object lesson and penalize the team so that other schools understand you don't break the law just to further a sport.
Matt Hinton at CBS Sports wrote an interesting piece against the Death Penalty for Penn State earlier this week. He acknowledges the moral strength behind the argument, but argues that it wasn't done with the intention of gaining an advantage for the football team, so it therefore isn't really doesn't fall under the NCAA's mandate. Unfortunately, I have to agree that Penn State shouldn't get the axe, but on a technical basis rather than his argument.
To me, the point of not going to law enforcement with the information was probably done to prevent the scandal that has erupted, which I think would have been done to help the football team. Sandusky was directly associated with the team, so the coverup points to not a lack of institutional control, which is punishable by the NCAA, but a complete lack of institutional morality. However, peoples' crimes have never been punished by the NCAA and it probably sets a bad precedent to start. Besides, this isn't a circumstance covered in the NCAA rulebook and a death penalty imposition would probably not stand up to the civil suit Penn State would be forced to launch to stop it.
As for Big 10 membership...I'm really not sure what I'd do. Being kicked out of the conference and the AAU would be a much worse fate for Penn State than any NCAA penalty, but my guess is that wouldn't stand up in court either. These types of unions typically don't have provisions to kick members out.
Penn State football is comprised of a hundred current athletes, a bunch of staff, thousands of former players and many more fans. You don't axe the whole program because 4 men acted horribly. In fact, it sounds like the leadership was going to report the incident until they talked with Paterno. Anybody stickng up for "poor" JoePa needs their head examined.
Lack of institutional control charges include the case where you have control but choose not to use it, so that's not really a reason to avoid NCAA punishment.
I don't know NCAA rules well enough to say whether a criminal coverup is a violation, which is strange to say, but I don't know that I'm very comfortable making up new punishments if isn't. If it is, they deserve appropriate punishment--the way the NCAA works, unfortunately, is that the football team is punished as a whole for the actions of individuals.
Because the NCAA does not have jurisdiction over this, it is a criminal matter. If this were say, a scandal involving the top executives of Apple instead of Sandusky, you would or expect the company to be thrown out of the NYSE.
What the fuck were they thinking? The whole thing makes me sick.
Ugh.....please let this be the end? I'm sickened to see what else is out there
I see no need for the Big Ten to associate with PSU. I don't care if it costs half of the next TV contract (it won't), they need to go.
I'm not sure about that, but I'd put them on double secret probation.
PSU needs to make some changes, far beyond just replacing a few criminal administrators. I'd like to see what they do. So far I'm completely unimpressed.
This is an institution in which every person in authority in a position to stop a child molestor decided to hinder legal investigations, apparently even when it meant breaking the law. Their identity as an institution was overshadowed by their worship of a man and his football program, and the myth that he and they were morally superior. Even when a prosecutor finally decided to pursue the case, he waited until Paterno set the career win record before filing charges. Even so, he complained during Sandusky's trial about the continuing lack of cooperation from PSU.
I'm sure most Penn Staters are fine people and were genuinely disgusted by what went on. At the same time it certainly seemed that the outrage of many was the strongest when it came to how Paterno had been treated. In response PSU offered to name the stadium after him, without waiting to see where this investigation ultimately goes. .
At the very least, PSU needs to do a thorough self-examination. Somebody like Jerry Sandusky could be anywhere. But the reasons he was enabled need to be addressed. I expected they would take some steps to rein in the football program and to cleanse it thoroughly. A new coach gets hired from the outside, but he is allowed to retain the assistants he wanted. Setting the football program back by losing a top-notch recruiter was just not an option. I realize that cutting loose all of the coaches isn't necessarily fair to them, but this wasn't a situation that called for giving them the benefit of the doubt either.
came off too strongly on my part. It was a visceral reaction to this very disturbing news, and I don't support throwing them out based on this one email. I do support going through a conference hearing with that as the harshest punishment, though, and I do think that hearing will start pointing to either incredibly harsh sanctions or expulsion.
I could get behind either expulsion or the Big Ten appointing a trustee to oversee PSU's athletic department for a set length of time, after which they could possibly be "reinstated" or whatever term would be applicable for a department that lost its autonomy. Either would accomplish the goal of maintaining the conference's reputation and setting a precedent for "what not to do" when high ranking university officials hear news of child molestation, and hopefully prevents actions like theirs in the future.
One of the biggest things I've learned in corporate america is that you never, ever, ever, ever send anything in an email that you wouldn't want brought up in court, on the front page of the newspaper, read on TV, etc. I can't believe that two guys this high up in a major university would make that mistake
That was their mistake? Putting it in an email?
How about letting a child rapist act freely under their umbrella for a decade?
Well yes, obviously that. But given they were covering it up, I was surprised they were dumb enough to email about it
To be fair, the message was written in 2001, so perhaps they weren't as aware of the consequences of making certain statements in email messages. Of course, this doesn't change the fact that they are scumbags if they covered up for this guy.
...and even today, I think we are still working throught the dangers of technology. Just look at how many people shoot themselves in the foot with Facebook for example.
Also, never ever Brett Favre anyone.
He was probably intending to create a pause in the reading
From Curley to Spanier, carbon copy to Schultz.
Here are three people that I hope see some jail time for that. Holy incredibly self-serving and incriminating e-mail, Batman.
I don't know if the Big Ten needs to kick Penn State out - things like this, if there is in fact more (please, no more - it's sick enough as it is) might make them so irrelevant that it might not even matter now. If there is anything worse than this attached to PSU, I don't think I want to know.
It's hard exactly to figure out how to punish PSU. I mean on one hand their medical center treated my mother and many other people for cancer. I have no desire to see that burned to the ground.
On the other hand they enacted a coverup of child rape to keep the legacy of Paterno and their sports program intact. The punishment clearly needs to be PSU restitution to the victims. They also need to very clearly admit fault and the football program needs to suffer in some way. TV ban, bowl ban, something in the history books regarding it. Basically they tried to bury their head in the sand to keep the stain of child rape off their program, so now that stain needs to be afixed in a way that it can't be removed.
The really sad part is if Sandusky had just been outed and handed over to the cops the moment PSU found out, PSU would not have their legacy tarnished. No one would blame Paterno for lacking some sixth sense that let him detect Sandusky raped kids in his free time. The coverup only made everything worse. It gave Sandusky more time to prey on victims and it threatens a large research school now. Society loses twice because of it.
...to figure out. If I were Penn State, I would try to do the honorable thing and voluntarily eliminate the football program. It's clear that it's led to a culture with skewed values, not juat at the football facilities but at the larger University and community as well.
The truth is that football is not really needed and that educational institutions can do just fine without them. Happy Valley/Penn State could do the wise thing by eliminating the program and committing to rebuilding their community with a new identity and better values.
And as a tangent, given the way that the football/concussion issue is emerging, this might be the future anyhow and is probably something that all major football communities should contemplate (and that means us in Ann Arbor too).
This is off topic but i cant start my own thread and this one is kind of depressing as it is, so i found this video that is legitimate showing that the score of the 2012 nba finals was changed. Its bad quality, but it isnt a scam or anything.
Refs change 2-pointers to 3-pointers (and vise-versa) during stoppages in play. Also, sometimes the TV folks screw up and have the wrong score posted.
Bottom line: if the NBA was going to try to fix an NBA Finals, they wouldn't just take points away mid-game.
It's something completely unrelated. Maybe they were throwing a surprise birthday party and changed their minds. Maybe someone filled out their golf scorecard wrong, or someone in the office has terribly bad breath.
It doesn't have to be that they were covering up a heinous crime, right? Right? How can this keep getting more horrible?
Is that tweet legit? There's nothing about this on the CNN/360 website.
The text doesn't seem to follow the angle of the screen perfectly. Interesting.
Shhhh, we're MGoBooting them from the conference. Who needs a discerning eye?
That isn't a true screenshot. The visual was produced for TV, presumably reproduced from the text of an actual email obtained by CNN.
Everyone of those crooked, sick bastards at psu is going to burn.
What, Mr. Curley? Just have the victims knocked off? What would be comfortable to you?
I think it's bogus; if it were real smoking-gun, the internets would be all over this by now. Also, what news organization releases bombshell news on friday night?
Anderson Cooper 360's official twitter feed was hyping the story like 2 hours ago.
Between two major Supreme Court rulings, uncontrolled wildfires in Colorado, and the large array ongoing issues in both Europe and the Middle East, further confirmation that PSU did not react properly in the Sandusky case ranks pretty low.
Who is being quoted in the email. Looks to me as if Curley is quoting an unknown person and sending email to Spanier and Schultz. I guess Curley could be quoting himself, but the email reads odd to me
CNN just make a mock-up to show on TV of emails that they had transcripts of.
I guess so, but in this instance I don't find the practice adequate.
How can this be from Anderson Cooper 360 from tonight when that show doesn't come on for another 32 minutes?
It's on at 8 and 10. Somehow.
Ah, yeah, that's right. My apologies.
The date of the email looked funny to me. I kept hearing Mcqueary witnessed the shower incident in 2002, and that was what was reported leading up to the trial, but I looked it up and Mcqueary changed it to 2001 in his testimony.
Just saying if anyone else noticed the same thing.
The idea that Joe Paterno, the most powerful man not just at the University but probably Western and Central Pennsylvania, knew of only one incident and did everything he could be asked to do was laughable to all but the fawning PSU faithful. Now evidence keeps trickling out to verify what common sense already told us:
Joe Paterno chose silence and cover up to uphold the public reputation of Penn State Football over true honor. The man with ultimate power let this slime continue to use his football program as a staging ground to attack children.
Agreed. He was the top dog at PSU and chose to bury the incident. The most shocking part is the others were going to do the right thing until they spoke with Joe.
After the story broke, his coments about just worrying and praying for the victims sure does ring hollow.
Wait, you are jumping to conclusions about a single email. Getting an email like this in legal discovery is a great starting point, but you need to see other correspondence before or after it, compare its date to other events (e.g. when did McQueary witness the assault in the shower?), and depose the participants to the email.
Did JoePa order the others not to disclose? Maybe. Maybe he acted emotionally or in some other way that caused the administrative knuckleheads to change course. Maybe the knuckleheads were covering their own tracks with an email that they thought might help them down the road. Maybe a half dozen of other possibilities.
This is a bad email for PSU, no doubt. However, what JoePa said in the meeting, whether there really was a meeting, and whether the email's author was being hones in the email are all open questions.
I'm basing it on the email AND the fact that Sandusky's actions were no secret to the PSU football staff and Joe Pa did NOTHING to stop young boys from being abused. Hey Jerry, you can even have access to the football facilities and keep on bringing kids over, that's fine. You've only been caught twice.
I'm beyond tired of people sticking up for JoePa.
Here's a link to the Anderson Cooper 360 clip on the emails.
What a shame. Joe Pa could have just said "Get the fuck out of here, you sick motherfucker" and retained his legend status. The fact that they had to cover shit up is ridiculous.
Follow the money. That's why it was covered up. It will all come out in time.
Just a minor point in the overall scheme of this scandal, but can we all remember that you should never build a statue of a living person?
What do they do with this thing now?
It's probably under a sheet in a warehouse somewhere. I'mn sure that someday they hope to be able to put it back up somewhere.
Have heard otherwise. Thanks.
Still up and it has heavy security around it, at least when I passed though. Although security on it might be scaled back now.
on campus that included Sandusky's image - that was altered by the artist to take Sandusky out.
Melt it down and donate the profits to a children's charity.
it seems to me that even if the general PSU fund takes a big hit with civil lawsuits and fines, it's really the athletic program that was being protected by those in charge. And specifically, the football program. What really drove the decision(s) to protect the Monster Sandusky was related to the reputation and money-generating ability of the football program, including Saint Paterno. So logically, if justice is to be served in relation to Penn State's culpability in this case, there should be severe penalties levied on the football program as well. I doubt PSU will do that internally, so either the NCAA or Big Ten will need to take action. Yes, they let most of the football staff go, but that doesn't go far enough. I would like to see at least a 3 year bowl ban and loss of at least 6 scholarships per year for 5 years.
I want them gone from the Big Ten. No other penalty will make me happy.
Ideally the B10 will just drop PSU. But that won't happen because so much money is involved.
There's another school that would love to take their place and how much money is psu going to be worth when all is said and done? How much are they worth for all the bad publicity they bring to the conference? Dump them.....now.
I just seems wierd establishing a scholarship reduction policy on child molestation. Maybe the appropriate thing to do would be to suspend the football program for a couple years.
but then you're punishing players for the actions of previous administrators. I'd like to see everyone involved in the cover-up thrown in jail for a few years. Loss of voting rights, loss of careers. Civil suits erase bank accounts. Then they need to come back to the real world and try to adjust to the harsh realities - just like Sandusky's victims. That seems about right to me.
Everyone who knew about this should join Sandusky in jail
That's interesting because I've often wondered who knew about this outside the program. You know sone other coaches around the country had to have heard something about this.
Considering Sandusky just "retired" out of nowhere and never got a head coaching offer when he was one of the top DC's in the nation should tell you a lot.
EDIT: Also, considering a 22 year old female broke the story by asking questions to people around Happy Valley, I'm guessing a lot of people at least knew a rumor or two about it.
Not long ago, I watched the '99 PSU game on tape. The announcers made a huge deal about how we "spoiled Sandusky's last game at Beaver Stadium." I'm glad we could at least do that to him.
This is one of my all time favorite victories to rewatch. But it's so weird to watch it now because it's a 3 hour lovefest for Sandusky. The camera zooms in on him over 20 times. The Aflac trivia question is about him. Brent Musberger and Gary Danielson kiss his ass non-stop.
Just look at these screen shots...
This last photo shows Sandusky hugging his son John.
between "heard something about" and "knew". It's worth remembering that the rumor hit this board some months before the story broke--the board scoffed.
Apparently Graham Spanier has an interesting history in regards to sex abuse scandals. Google "Franklin Scandal Graham Spanier" if interested.
Holy shit. It is a longshot to consider that this is why Penn St. hired him.
I honestly thought this would go away. I work with several Penn State alumni. They are just as sick about this as the rest of us and are personally embarassed by it all. I had hoped for them that it would be over. This is just nauseating but no one should be surprised. This is data that you could have reasonably interpolated just looking at the career arcs of the people involved. A nice little conspiracy. This is why I take issue with the whole, "this happens all the time/Genovese syndrome" spiel being effused here and in the blogsphere this past week.
Its like Dorian Gray, and now the fun part, we get to see the painting.
That's well put.
Wow. Just watched the CNN report. Assuming it's accurate, that's a smoking gun on Spanier, Paterno, et al.
Would you mind summarizing for those of us who didn't get to see?
I love sports. Especially college. From D1(yes, I still call it that) to D3. Having been closely associated with both sides (college administration and athletic departments) there is a very real truth I have had to accept in my adult life. The majority of coaches and people associated with the athletics department are arrogant jerks who only care about one thing, their individual program. Yes, even the guys we love and support. You think Bo or Woody wouldn't have been a pain in the ass when they really wanted something? Often times this behavior is supported all the way to the regents or board of directors. I have witnessed the highest level of administration try to reel in out of control head coaches only to have that coach go directly to the chairman of the board to get their way. Sadly, a large contingent of board members have forgotten the core purpose of academics and view these coaches as idols which clouds their judgement. If I have witnessed this at every college level, imagine the influence someone like JoPa would have had at Penn State. And think how much every board member would have fawned all over him. In many ways, it's no different than how coaches and teachers fawn over talented athletes in high school and college. This is the very real and sad part of college athletics for me.
Your post makesme even happier that we have a person like Brady Hoke coaching Michigan.
Do you somehow beleive that Penn State fans thought Jo Pa was some corrupt child molesting enabler when they hired him in 1966? 46 years of power can corrupt./blind ANY man. Yes, even Brady Hoke.
Thats why institutions have checks & balances, because a culture of hero worship, $ chasing and virtually limitless authority can poison any organization if left unchecked and given enough time.
Jo Pa was probably a beacon for integrity for most of his carrer, but too much time around fawning yes men, influental donors, and spineless/corrupt administrators can twist the values you begin with over time.
It's a sad reality but it can serve as a template for Michigan & other organizations to fully investigate any irregularities quickly & thoroughly; it can only help Brady Hoke and other good coaches retain the character they begin their tenures with.
Probably should have read BlueinTexas' post more clearly since I practically paraphrased everything he said. any way, "absolute power blah blah blah . . ."
But you've got to ask . . . what compels a man to stay on 46 years, even after it's become apparent that he can't handle all the aspects of the job like he once could? It's not like he had to keep that job forever. Remember, PSU once tried to get JoePa to retire (in 2002?) and he basically told them, "Get off my lawn."
I could be wrong, but I just don't see Brady Hoke as the type to cling desperately to power and chase after win records. I don't see JoePa as a product of 46 years of power. I see it as the reverse. I think we dodged a bullet not hiring the guy.
and you may be absolutely right, there COULD be a character flaw in Jo Pa that was there from the beginning that led to all of this. . . but that character FLAW might be part of what makes a high profile football coach successful?
Is it competitiveness, motivation, having the willpower to run a premire football program?
I think Hoke & JoPa (and other successful coaches) probably share an awful lot of personality traits, certainly when they are both young/middle aged. But what happens when conditions are ripe for corruption and moral decay to occur?
It's a recipe:
Combine one part type A personality, with equal parts ultimate authority & pressure.
stir in a never-ending stream of money and prestige.
Sprinkle with corrupt cowworkers and selfish underlings.
Set temperature to success, bake for 46 years.
I assure you that the tired, perhaps twisted old man that emerges will be a shadow of his former self.
I sincerly hope Brady Hoke isn't the type of person to cling to power the way Jo Pa did, but I also have to admit that he's human, and that worshiping him as anything but is exactly the way it started 46 years ago at Penn State.
Sorry, but that recipe doesn't work on all people. Power and fame doesn't have to corrupt, some people have core values where people matter more than programs, institutions or reputation.
but tell me; how many contemporary people you know of that have a 46 year tenure of being the head of (or at least the face of) a glamorous, prestigious, money making organization where you are worshiped by children and presidents alike?
There are very few kings in the world anymore for a good reason.
JoPa is unique due to his longevity (which I'm sure was part of the problem).
I'm 100% confident that Brady Hoke won't last 46 years as Michigan's head coach.
I'm 99% confident he wont last 26.
I'd be absolutely thrilled with just his 10 best, and get out before it kills him.
As a huge bugs bunny fan, I have no intention of getting in a fight with Elmer. There are always individual exceptions to the norm, but from personal experience, the majority of head coaches have egos beyond belief. It is partially what drives them to be good at what they do. Unfortunately, it is a very negative characteristic once they get outside of their realm.
Makes you wonder what really happened to Ray Gricar, the missing DA who investigated Sandusky. Did he know too much?
Warning: Freep link. http://www.freep.com/article/20120629/COL10/206290373/Rochelle-Riley-Do-...
Given the other high profile cases Gricar was involved with (mobs and drug rings), it's extremely unlikely that Gricar's disappearance had anything to do with PSU and the Sandusky investigation.
Perhaps but I wouldn't automatically rule it out. I'd venture to guess there was much more money on the line for PSU than any mob/drug operation. With what is coming out about the "leaders" at PSU, would you really be shocked?
You can say that psu under Paterno and Spanier was organized crime. I wouldn't be shocked.
I think those calling for Penn St. to be punished by the NCAA or Big Ten (ie. scholarship losses, bowl bans, expulsion) are a bit over reaching here. Yes, there was a coverup, yes, JoePa and all these guys deserve to be exposed, yes, this whole thing is awful. This is a tragedy that no one would wish on their worst enemy.
However, the players on the team now and the coaching staff now (which from a quick google search appear almost all new except for Larry Johnson) don't deserve to have to suffer for this any more. For one, the stigma around their program is already a huge punishment. Additionally, NCAA/Big Ten punishments like these described are mostly deterants. I think these mechanisms are completely inappropreate for this problem.
Did they replace the entire board of trustees? Wait, they knew nothing.....nevermind.
Agreed. Fire them all. Go after them in the legal system if they can prove something, which is better equiped to handle this. Make the school and football program pay huge damages to the victims. I'm agree with all this.
I just think that expelling Penn State from the Big Ten and/or NCAA sanctions such as bowl bans and scholarship reductions misses the point and punishes the players and current coaches crimes they didn't commit.
The coaches knew what they were getting into when they took the job there now. They will find new work. Allow all the players to transfer without having to sit out a year. There are more people in the shadows that make a lot of money off penn state who knew about this as well and they won't go punished if nothing is done. This case is huge, more will come out and we haven't even come close to knowing all the dirty secrets in Happy Valley. This will not end well for psu.
Not to specifically call you out Nikj, but as much as Michigan fans (including me) love to evoke "The Team, The Team, The Team" I always find it odd when anyone says "but the current players shouldn't have to suffer for someone else's mistakes". What makes college football so great is that it is not about just the current players and coaches. It is about the program. This IS about teaching young men this type of behavior (by all those responsible) is not acceptable. This is bigger than just the current players and coaches at Penn State.
Agree mostly. But punishing current players for past transgressions is horseshit. Its not about cfb being above the rules it's about a 19 yr old kid who is trying to get through school by working his ass off on and off the field. Punishing them for something in the past they had nothing to do with is like saying guns kill people.
I don't think that the team should have the death penalty. I believe that the program needs to have some sort of penalty. This cover up was done to keep the image of the program and allow money to keep flowing in to the university. If the team is still there, the student athletes can still ". . . get through school by working his ass off." If the student athlete wants to compete at a high level, let them transfer to another school penalty free. If their desire is to keep playing for PSU no matter the cost, that would be their choice.
BTW - If the death penalty were to happen (I doubt it and think it would be horrible if it did), that doesn't mean the players would lose their scholarships. They still could work their asses off, just more so in the classroom then in the weightroom.
This like saying don't put a guy in prison because he has kids that are that did nothing to lose a father. Punishment always hurts innocent people.
I agree this is bigger than the coaches and players at Penn St. I also don't usually agree the arguement that the current players shouldn't be punished for past infractions (ie, I agree with punishing USC or OSU for what they did to gain an advantage). I just think that NCAA/Big Ten infractions/expulsions are inappropriate in this case. I don't want to confuse the issue, I think these guys who covered this up and the main perpetrator himself and anyone who knew about it should be dealth with by the legal system (which is far more serious than the NCAA and Big Ten).
I think that a lot of this is about our anger over what happened and the nature of those crimes. If this was about a crime that is equally serious, but different in nature (let's say covering up a murder by a former coach, or 10 murders to make the point that much more serious), would we be calling for the NCAA to give out sanctions or the Big Ten to expel Penn St? Maybe, maybe not. How about if it's a major embezzelment that involves hundreds of people losing everything they had? Where do we draw the line? What happens if we find out 5 years from now that Woody Hayes covered up a murder by an assistant coach when he was head coach at OSU? Do we want the Big Ten give them the boot too?
The institution of Penn St. University is severely damaged by this and the people that perpetrated this deserve punishment and that the school deserves to pay damages for employing people who would cover this up. But in terms of the NCAA and Big Ten taking action, I think they should not do anything except for reach out to help the victims in whatever way they can.
Yes, if the university had covered up murders I would want them expelled too. The university's damaged but not enough in my book. Do they deserve all the money they will be getting from being a member of the Big Ten(network contracts, bowl money and so on), no they do not. They chose their path and now need to take their medicine. Go find money somewhere else, do not take our money while disgracing the league.
Too go further on your examples yes they should be gone if they had done any of those. This was a massive conspiracy and cover up by a state institution that happened over many years. Many profited from children being victimized and punishment must be doled out heavily. It was a former player and coach who used the university as a tool to victimize young children while they knew about it and did nothing. Fall they must and hard they must fall.
The team will still benefit from the cover up if nothing happens to them. Look at their recruiting now. They are pulling in players right and left. Will this slow down in thext couple of months? Yup. Will the public forget about this issue after a coule of months? You bet they will. It will be business as usual for the football team. That's what I have have a problem with. The football organization was never dealt with.
Do I think they should be expelled from the Big 10? Nope. Do I think they should get the death penalty? Nope. Do they need to be taken down somewhat? Yes. If they don't, the cover up that happened will have worked. They will have successfully saved the prestige (not image) of Penn State Football. Just as the players were lining up to play for Tressell while OSU was under investigation and Carroll with USC was going through their issues as well, they are still lining up to play for PSU. The tradition, culture, and history of PSU is and will stand. They have 14 commitments for the 2013 class and half of them are 4 stars! All of them committed after charges were filed last November. In fact, the DA is so worried about re-election (or PSU football is so important to him) that he waited to press charges AFTER Paterno won the game to give him the all time win reciord. Even in prosecuting, PSU football was more important than the lives of the victims. No, they need sacntions. They need bowl bans, scholarship and/or recruiting limits, or other penalties. Yes, the current players will be put out by it. They can still be part of the team on scholarship or they should be allowed to transfer without penalty.
It sucks for the players, yes. But that's how it's gotta be. The program and the school have to be punished.
Lock up every person that can be connected and fine PSU the amount of every persons salaries who had knowledge for every year that person had knowledge until the story broke. Put that money to a charity that helps abused children.
If only it was that easy.
There's a reason why the Board of Trustees looked into going Private. This is only the tip of the iceberg.
Cover ups have to be punished as harsh as possible. Unfortunately, we are not going to wipe crime off the face of the earth but there are people in place at companies and institutions that are responsible for dealing with the crimes when they find out.
By not acting properly, they allow the crimes to possibly continue. It is just as bad as the person committing the crime. It is not always easy or popular but they are compensated very well to do their jobs. They didn't, crimes continued. punish them as severely as possible.
never in my wildest dreams did I think people here would seriously discuss dropping PSU from the conference. But it's not a stretch or that farfetched.
That's something about the Big Ten that, in my opinion, is different from a lot of other conferences. Some call it a superiority complex, but I think it's more than that.
From academics to athletics, the Big Ten has always prided(?) itself on doing things the right way, and that is a huge source of pride for fans of Big Ten teams. It is probably most apparent in Michigan fans, which is where we get the "we're better than everyone else" vibe.
That perception of the Big Ten has probably changed with the OSU and PSU scandals (and the media blowout of our "scandal"), but for the longest time when you spoke of "clean" programs, the list would start with Big Ten teams.
The SEC has won a lot of titles recently, there's no denying that. But the Big Ten will not corrupt their morals in order to compete on their level. Before oversigning was addressed by the NCAA, the Big Ten had rules in place to prevent it. They had a "we will do things the right way even if it puts us at a disadvantage" approach.
That's where this indignation stems from. We have such high expectations for our programs and conference as a whole. We do things the right way, and we wish to uphold that reputation, even if it means losing a historic program like PSU (I am speaking only of our fans on this board who have mentioned booting PSU. I can't extrapolate beyond that). If (forbid) something similar happened at Michigan, I would understand (though be pretty pissed about) other programs feeling the same way about us. There is a reputation to uphold, and a scandal like this can be a leach on the perception of the conference. One corrupt and flawed program can drag the rest of the conference down with it.
I'd be curious to know how some of the other fanbases feel about the topic of revoking PSU's membership, both Big Ten and other conferences.
Another little know fact is the missing DA. Way back when Sandusky was first charged, something happened behind a closed door. The DA, Ray Gricar, dropped the charges, stepped down and eventually went missing. His car was found empty on the side of the road and his body never found.
He was in some some pretty high profile drug and organized crime trials. Any one of those could have led to him gone missing.
Not that this is the important part of all this, and not that I can even remember what goes on in a teenager's head anymore, but how do you recruit kids to that program now? I don't think "come to penn shtaaaaaate!!!" is gonna work for them anymore.
2001. Bastards. Rewatch the video where JoePa blithely says 'think/pray for the children". He and his clan can take the 400+ wins and shove them up their butts.
Waking up and reading this post while my three young boys bounce around watching cartoons and eating cheerios makes me want to go postal on everyone involved.
It still seems like an incredible coincidence that the s**t didn't hit the fan until right after JoePa got his precious win record.
Yeah. JoePa did what he could alright. He did what he did to preserve his precious record. Bastard. Dirty Bastard.
Nobody writes e-mails with quotation marks.
You have to watch the video. It's a re-creation of the emails, not a photo of the emails themselves.
I think Joe stayed with Penn State in order to cover up the Jerry Sandusky incidents. Paterno couldn't retire. He knew the whole mess would be exposed after he retired.
Paterno represents lack of leadership in my book. He will always be less than a man.
He had an opportunity to be a real hero, but he chose to put his head in the sand instead.
To hell with Joe Paterno!
That decision has already been made, one way or the other.
Watching that CNN clip, Curley, Schultz and Spanier talk about confronting Sandusky about the McQueary incident and ALSO tell him that they know about the first incident, which was the investigation that took place in 1998. This is the same investigation that JoePa testified and claimed to have never heard about until 2011 when the sh*t hit the fan. His family is still claiming that he didn't know about the 98 incident/investigation.
I always thought Joe was lying about this because Sandusky was his defensive coordinator at the time and he coincidentally "retired" 6 months later. Surely he would know about the investigation at the time. But these emails now can confirm he was lying. Are we honestly supposed to believe that Spanier, Curley and Schultz knew something this big that the Lord and King JoePa had no idea of in 1998? There's no way he didn't know. When is PSU nation ever going to comment on that?
I remember as well that people thought it odd that JoePa barely had words for Sandusky when he 'retired'. The architect of Linebacker U left with barely a pat on the back. Amazing how events refocus when looking back with new information.
but what new facts really came out of these e-mails?
We all knew that Spanier and the rest will be facing trials and that they had prior knowledge of these incidents and that Joe Pa was the one who notified them and these e-mails just verify that.
I understand that this e-mail can read like it's Paterno who's pushing for these guys to not go to the police but It's entirely possible that Paterno just discussed the extent to which he knew about the incident and they realized that they didn't have anything 100% solid and decided to not make the call...which I thought was generally accepted order of events to begin with.
Nice try, maybe the Paterno family is hiring a spin doctor.
This whole thing is so sick. Joe Paterno has been revealed as a modern-day Jim Jones. This personality cult led to unimaginable horrors inflicted on children. I can't believe PSU fans still defend Paterno or any of the others complicit in this tragedy.
Kick 'em out of the Big Ten. Forever. The Big Ten will survive. It will probably be better without the current putrid stench eminating from Happy Valley anyway.
I think their football program needs the death penalty. Five years. This is exponentially worse than SMU, or honestly, what any football program in history has been caught doing. Like 10 billion times worse. They can start over from scratch as an independent in 2017.
If Patenro actively prevented this thing from going to child services and the university went along with him, they need to end football at Penn State now. It's just disgusting.
Bullshit argument. End of. Give the players free rein to transfer, in addition to maintaining their scholarships to PSU in cases where players do not want to transfer. By the logic people are employing, football programs could almost never be punished, because innocent people would be affected negatively.
The whole point is that the situation is far, far more important than football. That needs to be remembered.