"...don't believe something because an "expert" is saying it. Believe it because of the evidence."
OT: Penalties for Cheating?
There is such a rule - the "show cause" penalty. It's prevented Jim Tressel from being a candidate anywhere.
If anyone does something really bad like murder or rape another person, I personally think that we should have a series of large and well secured facilities in which we can throw these offenders. We could maybe put barbed wire around the outside and keep them in little cages for most of the day. I think something like this may deter a lot of violent crime in the future.
....there are plenty of murderers & rapists who have never set foot in a prison. Some of them might even be football coaches.
You just never can tell...
TP doesnt understand what you guys are saying...everybody kills, everybody murders and then goes and gets a free tat afterwords.
Whew. I thought this was going to turn into a conversation about how I allegedly killed 5 hookers. Or was it 6? I forget. Allegedly.
Its hard to believe that this handle is still available here. Nice steal.
Im pretty sure thats for being hired at another college
I would say Tressel got punished for cheating at OSU. Didn't he get some type of ban or restriction as far as coaching in college? I think the biggest problem is that the NFL continues welcoming these coaches and players who violated the rules. It is very contrary to other professions, where if cheating is on your official record coming out of school, it actually impacts your ability to get a job.
Jmblue beat me to the punch.
If you proved yourself to be brilliant in one job, but were "convicted" of cheating in a non-criminal way, any company would have the right to hire you without penalty.
Pro teams are welcome to take prior actions into account, they just don't care.
If yes, I agree with you. These coaches know exactly what they are doing and know that it is wrong. Once they get a small idea that sanctions may be upcomming, they may start looking to bolt. ( i.e. Pete Carroll) There should without a doubt be a penalty, as none of these coaches should be given a higher profile job, for cheating their way to the top.
The coaches should have to deal with the sanctions or be fired.
when you have someone like Pete Carroll. who cheated his ass off and leaves for the pros (get a raise)?
Well, I don't think you can expect the NFL to want to punish him for amateurism violations that have nothing to do with pro football. Being banned from coaching in college is not a slap on the wrist. Besides, Carroll isn't a typical case. He happens to be a good enough coach to work (and succeed) in the NFL. A lot of other guys won't get that opportunity.
True. The only real way to punish the coach and make it real is to have some sort of clawback mechanism in their contracts. Of course in the world we live in, not only do guilty coaches not get fired but they also get to retire with full pension a benefits and are celebrated like war heros, so th likelyhood of that is nil
I don't see why this is a problem. Pete Carroll has proven himself bad at running a clean NCAA program, so yes, he shouldn't get another college job. He is, however, good at coaching football, so I see no problem with him getting a job that focuses on football and not on obeying the NCAA's rules.
John Calipari jumping from NCAA job to NCAA job is much worse IMO.
The NFL is a multi billion dollar business. It does not care if you cheated at your last job. There are lots of things that SHOULD happen in life. This is one that is never going to happen.
Its too bad that the NCAA and NFL can't work together to try to stop some of this shit. Its getting ridiculous.
Why would the NFL care? The NFL would not benefit one bit from getting involved.
The NFL benefits from a healthy college game. Probably not enough to make something happen, but one can dream.
NFL benefits from its star power. Dickerson was part of one of the biggest scandals ever. He still went on to benefit the NFL.
I don't follow. How would more severe punishment from the NCAA make the college game "healthier"? Are you suggesting that more people would take an interest in college football if there were a lot more teams on probation, banned from the postseason? I wouldn't think so. If anything, it's probably in the best interests of football for NCAA rules to be ignored so more teams/players can participate
The point people need to remember is that amateur sports are their own little world, with arbitrary rules that don't apply to the larger society. Most NCAA violations are not morally bad things. A booster giving a poor kid some pocket money is not a crime against society. It's a violation in the specific NCAA context, but it's not something that a professional organization like the NFL should be alarmed about.
I think this post is best answered with some wisdom from my mother who loved to tell me when I was younger that "life isn't fair".
Is that why you when you asked for a car, you got a computer?
or even (legally) could be any way to stop coaches who broke NCAA rules from getting hired for professional jobs. First of all, an NFL franchise is around to make money; I have no idea why an owner would want to restrict his hiring pool based on rules that have no application in a professional league. Second, by this logic, why should Reggie Bush or Terrelle Pryor be allowed to collect an NFL paycheck? They knowingly broke rules, lied, ect. and nobody seems to have a problem with them running the ball (or warming the bench, in TP2's case) and taking a roster spot from someone who didn't break those rules.
This might not be a great analogy, but what about a prominent lawyer or surgeon who takes a faculty job somewhere and is fired for plagiarizing? Should they be prevented from going back into the profit sector and drawing up merger documents or cutting into someone's knee? Since writing papers won't be a integral part of what their employer is looking for, I'd argue that it doesn't matter what they did while publishing academic papers when looking to hire this hypothetical doctor or lawyer, provided they were still great at practicing law or medicine.
Mel Kiper on Taylor Lewan
Bad call...I don't want to see a kid worth a lot of money right now holding out. Odds are he'll be fine and a likely top-10 pick next season, but he has plenty of value now.
Also, SEC on athletics
The obvious takeaway: the SEC is insane. SEC schools spend more than 12 times as much on each athlete as they do on their regular, non-revenue-generating students
Do you remember when Kraft had to stop calling it Cheese & Macaroni because there was more macaroni than cheese? Apparently Student Athletes are actually Athlete Students. Shout out to Cardale Jones.
I'd love to see him say that to Lewan's face.
been some kind of findings or even specific allegations that Oregon has committed wrongdoing? I know that Kelly leaving after first declining is unusual but he probably just had cold feet.
The NCAA has gone through most of the process to hand down penalties, and Kelly would have had to testify in front of the Comittee on Infractions had he stayed. Here's just a little article, but if you search any combination of "Oregon", "Willie Lyles", "NCAA violations", ect. you should be able to see most of what's happened.
The best part of that story is that the kid transferred to Baylor.
Oregon tried to plea bargain (self sanction) and the NCAA rejected their offer. That basically shows something is headed Oregons way and Oregon knows they're guilty on at least a few counts if they're trying to cut a deal.
If a doctor writes a prescription for someone that doesnt need it as in pain killers, he could have his license yanked.
Thats against the law. Paying college kids money is not. Jerry Sandusky can't work in the NFL anymore because of the rules he broke. But you are talking ethical vs legal.
Ok thanks for the link
More on morale
Make it a rule not a law. Kinda like leaving early for the draft
Someone made a rule that you cannot leave for the NFL before your junior year and that doesnt really benefit the NFL
That "someone" is the NFL. It made that rule because it does benefit the league to have players enter after they've spent three years in college making a name for themselves. The NBA passed the age-limit rule for the same reason.
The NBA is looking to lengthen their one year rule, I believe. NFL franchises would probably benefit from going to four years as well. Without a developed minor league system like hockey or baseball, basketball and football are better off waiting as long as possible to draft players.
I understand the whole reasoning because of money but if a coach does something illegal like pay their players then there should be a rule for banning coaches from coaching in the NFL. Im not talking a lifetime ban but a time period to where the coach gets to lay in his own shit. Lebron and Kobe did just fine and are better than most of the NBA players. Clowney is talent ready but is restricted.
You seem to be missing the larger point here. It's NOT illegal for a football team to pay a player. It only happens to be a violation of the rules in college - that's it. In the pros it's perfectly fine.
Thats what im talking about! Obviously you cannot make it law to ban coaches but make it a rule.
These issues are becoming more prevalent in some successful college coaches because they cheated and the ones that pay the price are fans and good coaches. The cheaters leave without a mark on them and leave a program a wreck with sanctions. In fact,the cheaters are glorified for their methods and get a raise and a better job.
I have a tip to help your reasoning process. Don't say things like "There should be a rule" and "Do you ever see a rule that will punish the coach and the university?" without considering who would make such rules. I get the idea that you haven't put much thought into that.
Btw, I negged you for your first two sentences. The first is patently ridiculous and the second is the kind of gratuitous whining that always annoys me..
Thanks for the tip, I guess I learned the hard way.
While there is some merit to your assertion (cheating is bad for the game,) there are several observations I would make:
- First, cheating has gone on forever . . . you just weren't as aware of it as you are now. If you think that there wasn't significant cheating involved 20 and 50 and 100 years ago, you're a bit naive.
- Second, the incentive to cheat is huge. With the incentives to cheat, in terms of both financial reward and other, you will not see an end to cheating. You can certainly increase the penalties, but there will still be the motivation for some to cheat. Note also that the penalty isn't exactly for cheating, but for getting CAUGHT cheating.
- Lastly, motivation NOT to cheat can't only be external (i.e., penalties for cheating,) motivation not to cheat is ideally also internal (i.e., you don't cheat regardless of whether or not you get caught.)
In some ways, this goes to the issue of who you are when no one is looking. If coaches and teams are only motivated by the fear of penalty and punishment, the real problem is still there. Ultimately, you want coaches and players who will basically do the right thing no matter whether anyone knows or not.