OT: (oops) USMNT - Moving Forward
Key admission; I am a casual soccer fan and know little to nothing about tactics, formations, player responsibilities, etc. Following the World Cup and Gold Cup it seems as though the consistent downfall is defense. How much of this has to do with individual defenders not being good enough or team defense not being good enough is way over my head. During the Gold Cup Final broadcast there seemed to be a lot of discussion of how Bradley and Jones needed to be more involved on the ball. My best guess (again, not a terribly educated one) is that the Americans' inability to maintain possession consistantly and keep pressure off the back line was a major problem.
Granted, Mexico has, what appeared to me, to be tremendous attacking talent. The USMNT also has very good talent up front as well. Adu's emergence (granted the sample size is extremely small but damn did he look good to me) and of course guys like Donovan, Dempsey, Altidore, Agudelo, etc makes me think that the USMNT is a good national team with the potential to be very good/great if the defensive issues can be ironed out.
What I'm wondering from the more informed fans here is, is there reason to be hopeful that some of the younger defenders can develop into legit international players or are we left to hope that guys like Cherundolo, Bocanegra and Gooch can maintain good enough form by 2014 to be a viable candidate to make a decent knock out round run in Brazil?
Again, I'm a novice fan who has managed to stay into the game since the previous World Cup and I see a lot of positives about the US team but the glaring weaknesses seem to be the same as they were in S. Africa. Thanks in advance for your input.
There are a number of young defenders working their way up in the MLS and overseas. I'm actually less worried about the player pool at defense and more worried about forward.
The key question on defense is how many of the guys who are young and starting in the MLS (Ream, Gonzalez, Opara, etc.) will continue to develop beyond just being good MLS players. Also, there were a few really good defenders on that Akron team (Sarkodie, Kitchen, Valentin) that may become factors in the national team pool.
Overseas, Lichaj and Chandler have both had great years. If Gale Agbossoumonde ever gets out of his third-party contract nightmare, he could be a star as well.
Up front it seems to be Altidore, Agudelo and pray for Davies. I don't really see who that next wave is going to be.
Agreed. I only managed to see parts of the Gold Cup (the final and the second Panama match) so I don't want to say too much about the team's performance given the small sample size.
That said, during the 2010 WC it didn't seem our defense was our problem (though the early goals were troublesome) but rather our complete inability to finish. So many times, especially during the Slovenia, Algeria and Ghana games (all that, in my mind, should have been won with some basic finishing) did we have fantastic opportunities lost. Based on the commentary I heard reg. Dempsey & co. vs. Jamaica or Guadeloupe seems like this remains an issue.
We are very strong in the middle. It is the forwards and back line that is a constant problem for us.
I don't know how anyone can't be worried about the defense. It stinks and frankly it's always been average at best.
Captain Bocanegra was responsible for Barrera being wide open on the 3rd goal. Ream made the single worst mistake in the Gold Cup knocking a Panamaian defender down as he was LEAVING the penalty area. Enough has been stated about Bornstein. Cherundolo was so valuable that Chicarito had TWO great opportunities in the first 10 minutes of the match. Lichaj was completely outclassed (although I would agree that he COULD get to a point where he's an asset on the field).
Shutting out Panama, Guadaloupe, and Jamaica were accomplishments 20 years ago. They aren't today.
What saves the defense is world class goaltending. When it isn't world-class, the result is Saturday night. If Mexico had Howard, they'd be a dark horse World Cup candidate in 2014. If the US had the Mexican goaltender, they wouldn't qualify for the World Cup.
With the Gold Cup over and Confed Cup now out of the picture, is the next competition of note World Cup Qualifying (don't think that starts for the US until next year) and the 2013 Gold Cup?
Yes, World Cup Qualifying will be the next big thing. There isn't anything on the schedule right now, but I assume they will play some more friendlies in the fall to look at the player pool. A nice comparison is 2007:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_men%27s_national_soccer_team_2007_results#National_team
and 2008:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_men%27s_national_soccer_team_2008_results#National_team
With the exception of the Copa America (I think we weren't invited, either way, not doing it this time), the schedule should be pretty similar to 2011/2012.
Yeah I'm wondering the same thing.
What really struck me about the difference between us and Mexico in that game was what you referred to as the "attacking talent" they have. They looked like they were just running circles around us out there, while, when we had the ball we weren't attacking or being creative or aggressive, just making very cautious passes around the perimer.
The reason I'm excited about Adu is he looked like he was the only US player out there who had that same sort of attacking mindset and ability as many of the Mexican players have, to really get at it and make something happen.
Part of me wonders if it's just an issue that soccer is so popular in these other countries, while it's not here in the US. Here in the US people with athletic ability end up playing other sports like basketball, football, even track and field so our soccer system is basically left to draw from a second-tier pool of athletic talent because the best American athletes are playing other sports.
I really think that unless soccer becomes more popular, and more attractive to kids with athletic ability, we'll continue to see the current status quo with US Soccer.
The other demographic at play that could possibly help us is the rising Latino population in America. I've heard a statistic that by 2050, 1 in 4 Americans will be Latino. Soccer is more popular among Latinos than other, more traditionally popular sports in the US and this could help US soccer.
I think I have the name right. He's a young player for D.C United or at least in their system who has star potential hype and the choice of playing for the US team or Honduras I believe. Its just one example but speaks to your point.
Najar chose Honduras
http://www.dcunited.com/press-release/2011/04/andy-najars-honduras-statement
Just FYI.
The other demographic at play that could possibly help us is the rising Latino population in America. I've heard a statistic that by 2050, 1 in 4 Americans will be Latino. Soccer is more popular among Latinos than other, more traditionally popular sports in the US and this could help US soccer.
Perhaps, but it could also be that as the Hispanic/Latino population becomes more integrated into the American mainstream, it will shed some of its interest in the game. I read somewhere that Italian-Americans rabidly supported the game in the 1920s (a little-known high point for U.S. soccer), but their interest gradually faded. Also, FIFA rules allow an American-born player of immigrant parents (or even grandparents) to choose their country if he so desires, so we could potentially lose second- and even third-generation Mexican Americans to the Mexican team. I don't think demographic trends alone are sufficient. The sport's mainstream profile needs to be raised further.
Indeed, we could lose the best of those eligible for Mexico much as we lost Joe Rossi to Italy. Thus far when guys have had a real choice between us and a true power, we lose out. We get the leftovers, who can still be pretty good players, but they're still the castoffs of the powers. Tim Chandler might be the first one to choose us, but that choice hasn't been locked in yet, and no one's sure if Germany would actually call him in anyway (though the fact that he showed very well in the Bundesliga does make people think they would if they thought he didn't prefer the US).
At least with Mexico we've been having guys actually choose us (I know Mexico wanted Paco Torres, for example), but I want to see what happens when a difference-making hotshot prospect, a true star, has the choice.
There are alot of issues with the squad. First of all I think that Bob Bradley should be fired. The team is still missing a legit goal scorer up top outside of Dempsey. Altidore is inconsistent and Agudelo is young and inexperienced. Hopefully either of those guys can figure things out.
The defense is a mess, with inexperienced guys playing alongside aging players with diminishing skills. If Bocanegra, Dolo, and Gooch are on the World Cup team in 2014 (if they qualify) the US is in bad, bad shape. Hopefully Timmy Chandler decides to play for the US and can take over for Dolo. I thought Eric Lichaj looked serviceable playing LB. Center Back is the big question mark as there dont seem to be many good options.
It would be awesome if Adu can continue to play well and revive his career because he adds a new element to the team with his creativity and skill on the ball.
Most of your first paragraph is entirely correct except for Dempsey. Dempsey isn't a "legit goal scorer", he's the gritty "Do-it-all" player that we need to set up Donavon, Altidore,and Agudelo, and who also puts the ball in the back of the net by any means necessary.
I agree the back line is aging, but the problem isn't that they have dimishing skills, it's the lack of consistency throughout that line. Boca and Dolo both have legit skills for any age, but the problem is pairing them with 2 other players to keep the opposing attackers in check. Chandler, if he stays with the U.S., will most likely start and continue to progress into a Lahm type player, outside back who pushes the play forward. Lichaj needs to stay on one side, flip-flopping like in the Gold Cup Final was a mistake. He's a solid player who needs to fix his mental skills and stay on top of the game.
Adu looks to be the added spark to the attack that will make our offensive game that much more lethal, he's legit and will help the U.S. keep more possession, something lacking the last couple of years.
Bradley should not be fired right now. He's doing a great job with what he has, but you can only do so much until other players progress foward. Once the young guns, Agudelo, Bunbury, Chandler, Mixx,and the others get the ball rolling so to speak, we'll see how well Bradley can coach when he has actual options. Also, the only decision I have ever disagreed with Bob Bradley on was the decision to never ever start Edson Buddle in the World Cup, other than that, his hand has been forced and you can only play the cards in your hand so well
Bradley has to go. Nothing he has done thus far has improved the USMNT's chances of winning the World Cup. While it's true that the current crop of players in their prime is less than world class, it is nevertheless Bradley's decision to play those players. Are the young guns ready to play at a world class level? Certainly not, and they wouldn't be an improvement in the short term. But the World Cup is played every four years, and some long-term planning is essential.
The World Cup is unique in that an entire team has to peak throughout a one month long tournament. Team unity would seem to be especially important for the USMNT, whose players never seem to play together at the club level (Fulham maybe being the exception, at one point). Compare that to other countries' teams, where the core of the team historically plays for a handful of teams... England: ManUtd/Chelsea/Liverpool/Arsenal, Germany: Bayern/Leverkusen/Bremen, Italy: Juventus/Inter/Milan, Spain: Real/Barca. Arguably, these players can form a cohesive unit much easier, based simply on that familiarity. In that sense, the USMNT is a lot like Brazil and Argentina, albeit without the insane talent pool.
What Bradley should be doing instead is to take the four years in between World Cups, including Gold Cups and the like, to form a core team. This core team won't consist of Boca, Dolo and the rest... simply because they will be too old come 2014. The Gold Cup is itself not an end goal, but rather a means to improve the team for a tournament that actually matters. If you want a more eloquent opinion, Grantland recently had a good posting on exactly this point: http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/6707994/hard-lessons. In essence, Bradley should have been playing the players who should be playing in the 2012 World Cup, Gold Cup results be damned.
I agree with you about the long term planning and looking to the future and building a team with players who have an actual chance at playing in 2014. The thing is that the result of the Gold Cup is actually very important to the team.
Since we didn't win the Gold Cup now it means that we wont play in the Confederations Cup. This has a far reaching consequence in that we wont be able to play games against good teams. I think it is important to play against top teams to get better and losing the Gold Cup has insured that we will not get as many opportunities.
Fair enough. I didn't mean to entirely downplay the importance of the Gold Cup. You could even add a few more reasons: keeping the interests of casual ADD-ridden sports fans, avoiding the embarrassment of being non-competitive as the host of a tournament, etc. The only problem is, if the Gold Cup is in fact important, then maybe Gulati needs to hold Bradley accountable for not winning. Getting to the Gold Cup final doesn't help USMNT's development (b/c no Confed Cup qualification) nor is it impressive (since we've made the final five of the last six tournaments... with the outlier being a Mexico-Brazil final).
My bottom line suggestion: either judge him by short-term results or long-term development. Bradley has failed at the former and seems to avoid the latter altogether.
In terms of BB's status doing poorly in the Gold Cup would have been the best. If he failed miserably in the Gold Cup it would have been really easy to get rid of him. Now that he made it to the finals with a less than optimal roster it makes the situation muddled.
The thing is it always seems like BB does just enough not to get fired by Gulati.
CONCACAF Gold Cup 2011's official (well, I think its official anyway) facebook page made mention of a USA-Mexico friendly in November at Azteca. I would love for this to be true - anyone hear any rumors along this line?
https://www.facebook.com/pages/2011-CONCACAF-Gold-Cup/101971083191514?sk=wall&filter=2
Bradley has to go for starters. If Gulati isn't willing to fire him before the beginning of World Cup qualifiying then I'll be very disappointed. Keeping national team coaches around for that long is unheard of and only causes stagnation.
I agree, to a certain extent. If you can get a definite upgrade, such as a Klinsmann (this has probably run its course and will never happen though) or Hiddink, then you should go for it, but I don't see how swapping Bradley for another MLS coach (such as Kinnear), just for the sake of a change, will do much good. I really like Jason Kreis of RSL, but it would probably be best for him to keep building his resume with an eye towards 2014, when Bradley will be gone regardless.
I am really against the idea of hiring a MLS coach to replace BB. Although the MLS is becoming a more competitive league I think BB has a slight loyalty to the current and former MLS players.
I just want BB to call up some of the young talent and actually give them a chance.
sorry to be that guy, but this definitely warrants an OT tag
It's June, give him some slack.
What part of "USMNT- Moving Forward" would lead you to believe that this would be anything but OT. Do you have some kind of script that detects and filters threads that start with OT?
As long as the title is informative, the use of OT shouldn't be an issue. Would you really need the letters OT to tell you that a thread titled "Detroit Tigers skullfuck the Yankees and Derek Jeter is a little bitch" is off topic?
apologies for not immediately realizing what USMNT stood for???
Fair enough, I figured that after last summer's USMNT front page content during the World Cup more people would understand.
10/20/2010
I've always thought USMNT was a terrible way to abbreviate the Men's Soccer Team. If they are truly interested in gaining some of the casual sports fans in the US, USMNT isn't exactly easy enough for those people to figure out.
It's ambiguous, given that there are U.S. men's national teams in many different sports. And it always makes me think of the U.S. Mint.
Are you talking about Jurgen Klinsmann? I wasn't aware that Franz Beckenbauer was ever considered an option for the US.
There are clearly issues about formation, strategy, training, player selection, etc. Bad luck or bad driving also is a factor. It set back Charlie Davies (forward with pace and finishing skills) who is still trying to recover after a devestating auto accident. He looked like the type of world caliber forward (speed and finishing) that we long needed.
But the big issue and one which may not go away is that for boys and young men, soccer is always going to be number 3 or 4 as a pro sport.
1 Pro/college football
2 and 2a. Pro/college basketball and Pro/college baseball
3. Pro/college hockey...Soccer is lucky to be 3 or 4.
A lot of the available talent disappears into those games. If you are looking for forwards, think about all of the small quick guards, short stops or slot receivers - they'd be perfect to be that sort of darting Lionel Messi forward. If you want people to go up in the air for headers, think of BB forwards, or TEs who can leap. For defenders, strong safeties, center fielders, linebackers. For goalie - think of that power forward or center - he'd smother most shots and can actually reach the cross bar along with a 6'10" wing span. It is not hopeless - the US population is big, big enough that realistically it should be able to field a team drawn from the niche places where soccer is the number one game just like ice hockey is huge in some northern states but basically unheard elsewhere. The women's game demonstrates this clearly. For women soccer players the national team is the pinnacle of their game and arguably more popular and better recognized than any other women's professional league in the country (not counting golf and tennis - individual games but counting the WNBA).
One other aspect not mentioned is that the technical part of the game (that is the actual skills part - like dribbling and passing) aren't emphasized enough at youth tourneys and leagues - a bit too much "winning" is pushed. But that is an ill seen in too many young leagues of all sorts - BB players with ugly shots, tennis players who don't have an around game, just a serve and a forehand, and look at where college football is heading. Just contemplate the fact that so many QBs for so called top teams have mechanics which need work on in the pros.
I have read that the youth development system in the US is actually backwards or different from what they do in Europe. In Europe they spend more time practicing to hone their technical skills, while the US system features more games and tournaments.
It's pretty much true for any sports. Europe emphasize technical/fundamental skills while USA emphasize games/tournament. IMO, Europe system is the best because usually, there are a lot of players who comes out of the region technically defined and tends to be creative. USA is sorely lacking technical aspect of the game and doesn't really have many players who are creative. Those who are on USA team who are creative tends to be players from different country before picking USA with Clint Dempsey being the exception.
One good thing about USA is they usually produce good goalkeeper so they were able to stay competitive for the most part for this reason.
Like in any sports in USA that you seen, there are tons of kids, players who plays with terrible fundamentals. I can vouch for the fact in baseball, there's so many kids who plays with terrible fundamentals that I would need to spend an entire off-season or two to correct their techniques. This is why Tommy John surgery are on the rise with young children and that shouldn't happen because that usually is reserved for much older players who have been throwing a ton in most of their life.
There was a fantastic piece on the Ajax (Renoun dutch soccer club) youth system and their general process for evaluating and training talent. In that article, it was noted how the traditional big, euro training systems differs so drastically from that here. Obviously I'm not an elite soccer player, but I played high level youth soccer throughout my childhood and into high school and have many friends who play at the division 1 level now who went through the same system I did. I can attest to the fact that from the age of 4 or 5 we played in games. Most european trained players dont play until they are 15. Until then its all mechanics, drills and technique. Until we adopt such a system, I feel we won't be able to compete at a truly high level consistently.
And interesting to note how this philosophy translates to other sports (baseball, basketball etc.)
After the Gold Cup, it seems there are a number of issues plauging the US.
The Defense:
Bradley needs to play the younger guys in important matches, because let's face come 2014, Cherundolo and Bocanegra will be 35, which means they won't be consistent contributors. Moving forward, the best bet would be some combination of Timmy Chandler, Gale Asso, Lichaj, Omar Gonzalez, and Tim Ream. It depends if you'd prefer Chandler as a back or a midfielder. Given the US depth, my guess is they'd like him on the back line. Ideally, Boca, Goodson, Cherundolo, and Lichaj would start things off in Qualifying, but slowly give way to the younger guys.
The Midfield:
One place the US has legitimate talent (young and old). Donovan and Dempsey will be in their last cycle, but are still genuine world-class talents. Freddy Adu rose from the dead. Bedoya is a solid two-way player. Michael Bradley needs to focus on being solid in all areas instead of ocassionally great in one aspect and poor in another. You have Maurice Edu, Stu Holden, Max Diskerud, the forgotten Jose Torres. The pool is young and deep. It's why the move to the 4-5-1 makes a tone of sense.
The Attack:
Well, here's the rub. Outside of Agudelo and Jozy, there isn't a whole heck of a lot. Besides those two recent call-ups include: Edson Buddle (ugh!), Robbie Findlay and Eddie Johnson (speedsters who can't finish), Hercules Gomez (Double UGH!), Chris Wondo (a striker who isn't fast and can't finish) and Teal Bunbury who is okay, but not a international-level striker at this point.
The Formation:
Let's agree to ditch the 4-4-2 permanently, especially with the lack of depth in the attack. The 4-5-1 is perfect for a counter-attacking team with playmakers/goal scorers in the midfield. Lichaj and Chandler are both capable fullbacks who can get forward and push the attack. Any combo of Donovan, Dempsey, Adu, Holden, Bedoya, Diskerud, and Torres has creators and possessors. Bradley and Edu are solid two-way guys who can hold the fort on D. It's the only move that makes sense.
The Manager:
There's a reason most soccer managers last at max 3 years in one place. Stale, I believe, was the word used above. It fits perfectly. There's an unwillingness to try out new blood (extremely important) because Bobby B keeps relying on Bornstein and Klestjan and "target" men who can't score like Wondolowski.
It's good enough to dominate CONCACAF with Mexico and an ocassional run in the WC, but the US needs a manager willing to run with the 4-5-1 and experiment with some different combinations. I posted this in the game thread, but going into 2014, I'd love to see this as the starting XI*
*Assuming players progress accordingly and there are no major injuries*
---------------------------Howard---------------------------------
Chandler------Ream-----------Gonzalez-----------Lichaj
-------------Bradley----------------------------M. Edu--------
Donovan-------------------------------------------------Dempsey
--------------------------Holden-----------------------------------
-------------------Agudelo-------------------------------------------
Main Subs: F. Adu (for Holden), Jozy (for Agudelo), Gale (for Ream/Gonzalez), Spector (for Chandler/Lichaj), Bedoya or Torres or Diskerud (for Donovan/Dempsey), J. Jones (for M. Edu)
How often did you see both outside backs and holding mids push forward with no regard to their defensive responsibilities. When the holding mids aren't providing cover and an outside back pushes up, you really need to make sure you don't turn the ball over, because that is a recipe for disaster. Too often the US would get sloppy with the ball and their defensive responsibilities creating all sorts of mess.
We don't have the technical skills and passing skills to hold possession when we need to. This past game against Mexico and the Confederation Cup Final loss to Brazil are glaring examples of how we can't keep possession. If we keep possession and not get injured we win both of those games. Also never call up Borstein again will be a great idea to moving forward.
really s/
The main problem I saw was that US midfielders don't stick to their positions. Bradley and Jones played the role of co-holding mids when the US was in the 4-2-3-1, but they often got caught too far up field providing no cover for the backline. I would've preferred to see Edu over Jones with Edu knowing his job was to permanently stay back and provide cover while Bradley moves around more. Additionally, Dempsey and Donovan oftentimes do a bad job of staying wide when stationed as outside attacking mids in the 4-2-3-1. Both of these talented players like to move in and get the ball, but with these 2 moving in and the 2 holding mids pushing up, the midfield would become jumbled, sloppy, and turn the ball over with no cover for the backline. While a lot of this came from player's not staying in position, the coach is responsible for telling guys how to play their positions. The fact that Bradley and Jones consistenly left the back exposed shows that Bradley was not doing his job.
What the US really needs in a coach is someone who will teach tactical discipline and focus on defense. Bradley did a good job coming in after the 06 cup, but it's time for a new coach.
Excellent point on the holding mids not maintaining cover when Lichaj/Bornstein pushed forward.
I didn't notice the Dempsey/Donovan sucking into the middle of the field thing, but it seemed to me that a good tactical adjustment would be to have the top of the "3" triangle break out wide to "replace" whichever of Demp/Donovan is breaking in. If both do it, well, that's an issue.
Agreed on time for a new coach, specifically someone who will preach POSSESSION. I can't imagine how gassed the backline was after defending for basically 90 minutes straight. Stat overlay at one point in the 2nd was 60-40 possession in favor of Mexico.
Watch Spain. Watch Brazil. Watch Mexico for god's sake. Counter-attacking is great. Counter-attacking because you can never hang onto the ball isn't.
with coach preaching possession is USA does not have players that possess tactical skills nor the creativity to possess the ball. Adu is probably the only one who has both. Dempsey have creativity but is better off going forward/backward not side to side when he has the ball.
You honestly believe we have the talent of Spain or Brazil to possess the ball?
That takes an incredibly high level of skill. Very few national teams have that. The US certainly isn't in that group
The problem with our defense was clearly Clarence Goodson, he was way too slow for the speedy Mexican attackers. Bradley needs to do a better job starting players based on match ups, not just that they are the starter.