OT: One last Dunn thread
Wow, if true, Urban Meyer is an asshole. If not true, Urban Meyer is still an asshole.
Pot calling the kettle black?
All of my pots are alluminum.
I just moderated your post as "informative" because I thought you had a valid point. Then I read your signature and I would like to take it back.
1. Michigan makes it abundantly clear up front that if you commit, you cannot visit
2. Michigan does not have pending NCAA sanctions
He had a point (let's talk like he isn't here), but there are a couple of differences which in the whole scheme of things are pretty big. It's a pretty ballsy move by Dunn. Imagine if Dunn had visited Michigan. What would the fallout have been (hypothetical)?
As I know it, Hoke says you cannot be considered "committed" if you are still taking visits, which means your spot is not saved until you do commit. This is entirely different than pulling the scholarship off the table if you take a visit, which can be considered as asshole-ish.
There isn't a ton of difference between this and what Hoke is doing...
Hoke doesn't pull offers, he just doesn't consider them committed and will continue recruiting other players at that position. Meyer just gave a kid trying to make the biggest decision of his life to date an ultimatum.
The mods at Rivals have said that Michigan is no longer recruiting Pharaoh Brown. If that's the case, then it appears Michigan did the same thing to Pharaoh Brown as Urban Meyer did to Bri'onte Dunn.
This is why Drake Johnson was offered - as an insurance policy for Dunn. It kind of sucks, but it's not the end of the world. These types of things happen in the recruiting world, and I don't think Dunn is a make-or-break recruit.
Maybe Pharaoh told them to go away?
The Rivals mods have said that it has been Michigan's choice not to pursue Brown further. I'm not vouching for the truth of that statement, just relaying the info.
Is this subsequent to Mattison's visit to Brown last week? Is that what Mattison told him?
EDIT: nevermind. The posts below say the visit was a rumor.
But I thought that the coaching staff stopped pursing Brown because of how he took his visit not because he took his visit.
I think that's an assumption that has not been verified. Either way, the coaches told Richardson that he would not be considered a commit if he visited elsewhere. It's unclear if they still would have recruited Richardson, but the evidence with Brown suggests that the coaches are taking a pretty hard-line stance.
I don't think it's fair to compare the Brown and Dunn situations though. Nothing really changed from the time Brown committed to the time he took his visit. There have been 3 different head coaches at Ohio since Dunn committed, plus they had all of the NCAA violations come out.
Any thoughts on how Mattison's visit to Brown plays into the Rivals chatter?
that was a false rumor as verified by Tom and wilftong
F-that. Next you're gonna tell me that Craig James didn't really presumably kill five hookers while at SMU because paying them for services provided would've exhausted his PAC account.
Yeah, I agree that this happens all the time. And while I think Dunn will be a good back, he was always a lean to Ohio and I figured it would be an uphill climb to convince him to pick UM once Ohio remedied their coaching situation.
Wish him the best, but I don't think Meyer did anything other than tell him he needed to make it clear if he was in for Ohio or not. Nothing wrong with that.
I wasn't aware of that. I think there might be more to them deciding not to continue recruiting him than the visit itself though. I think it says a lot about Brown that he tried to do it secretly since he knew he wasn't supposed to. I've never met the guy or heard anything about his character, so I won't jump to any further conclusions about his character. Hoke and co. have made it pretty clear what type of guys they want to play for them though.
Dunn is not entitled to a ship to osu, Meyer can do whatever he wants with them, if this is true and I suspect it is given how things went down, it sounds like Meyer was upfront with the kid, it may not have been what the kid wanted to hear but so be it, he had every opportunity to tell Meyer to go to hell.
Meyer is becoming easier and easier to hate.... This isn't remotely close to what Hoke does, btw. Hoke says if you visit you aren't fully committed and we will look for alternatives. This is saying "you cant try to find what school fits you best, because if you try I won't let you come here at all." Scumbag.
you are not so bright. Therefore it isn't surprising that you don't grasp the difference between continuing to look for other players and outright telling a recruit--ala Dunn, that you have no place here no matter what you do. Think about it a minute.
Now having said all of that. I'm not here to say that this stance alone makes Meyer a scumbag, it's the kind of thing that happens a lot in recruiting. RR used to say if you continue to take visits, you really aren't committed, and he was right.
He's the head coach of biggest rival, that isn't enougb to hate him for?
that the OP has it right.... Meyer said "Pull your offer" and not "No longer consider you committed"..... and that it some how didn't get mistranslated between his source and his source's source.
Even so, I think it's pretty much the same thing. Hoke tells recruits that they are no longer committed if they are taking other visits or, basically, your offer has a chance of going to someone else.
I'm guessing this is pretty standard in the coaching world.
I think the big difference people are missing is that Hoke tells these recruits from Day 1 when they commit, and even before that, when you are committed you are expected to be done with recruiting. Meyer could have easily come in from Day 1 and tell all of his commits about this policy but he chose to wait weeks, felt threatened by Michigan, and told Dunn specifically that he would pull his offer.
I think it is a blessing in disguise. I like the idea of going into next year's recruiting being able to tell 5* RBs (that are, let's be honest, better than Dunn, ike Ty Isaac) that they'll have one year behind Fitz and then they have a chance to be the Man.
and if Dunn wants to play for 3 to 5 years for a human being like that (over Hoke), good luck to him.
Hoke has the same policy. If true, it seems like a pretty smart move by Meyer. There isn't much sense in holding a spot for someone who isn't really committed to you. The reality is that Dunn wasn't really committed to Ohio prior to last week.
I'm still holding out hope that the NCAA gives Ohio a Bowl ban. I think Dunn will flip if they do.
Hoke does NOT have the same policy. He keeps the offer with the kid, just no longer considers them a commit. A BIG difference.
That isn't true. If a kid visits elsewhere, the Michigan staff would pull the offer if they could find a better fit in the meantime. Otherwise, what's the point? It's a semantic difference between Hoke and Meyer's policies, and I don't have a problem with either one.
Now whether Meyer was bluffing is a guess that the Dunn family probably had to make.
I will try this with an analogy.
Example 1: You go to buy a car at a dealership. You test drive it and you like it. You talk to the salesman and hammer down a price. You tell the salesman you would like to shop around. He says that he is fine with that, but he can't hold the car for you. If someone else comes along and offers him the same money for it, he will sell it.
Example 2: You go to buy a car at a dealership. You test drive it and you like it. You talk to the salesman and hammer down a price. You tell the salesman you would like to shop around. He says that you either buy the car right now or you will never be allowed to buy it. You explain that you need time to think about it but he insists that you make your decision right now without comparing any other dealers.
See the difference now?
What if you keep coming back and wasting that dealers time by test driving the car? In the end always saying "I still want to shop around".
The difference is, the dealer has to sell a certain number of cars by the end of the day.
If the same customer keeps coming back for more test drives and questions, it's wasting the dealer's time, causing him to potentially not meet his end of the day sales goal.
Correct. It could have been a one time strategy employed by Meyer, or it could be his blanket policy.
I guess the hole in the analogy would be Dunn's behavior. He has been a commit, then a soft commit, a visitor on U-M sidelines twice (on the opposite side of Ohio at Michigan Stadium), talking about an official U-M visit, etc...
In the end it was Meyer telling him to shit or get off the pot.
I agree that those two situations are different but I don't think Example 1 describes Hoke's policy. At least I'd be surprised if it did. Do we think Pharaoh Brown was free to come back from his Oregon visit (say, the following Monday or Tuesday) and say, "Coach Hoke, I checked out the other college/dealership and your offer is better, therefore I wish to remain committed/buy the car at the price we discussed."
My understanding is Hoke would not have allowed him to recommit so easily. Otherwise, Hoke's rule would have zero teeth, and commits would visit other places, roll the dice that no other player would commit in that 48 hour span, and re-commit on Monday. I think Sam Webb discussed this last week and said something to the effect of, "If Pharaoh Brown is allowed back in this class (at least, without serious reflection by the Michigan coaches), the other members who wanted to take visits but didn't (e.g., Richardson) are going to be a bit miffed."
I don't think Sam said "miffed" but you get my point.
From what Magnus is reporting (from the Rivals mods about Brown) it appears that Example 1 might not be an accurate portrayal of Hoke's policy. It appears that his policy is closer in line with Meyer's. At that point the line is much more fuzzy in the difference between the two, if there is any at all.
i'm bad with analogies, so help me out. what kind of car are we talking about again?
is that Dunn doesn't need to buy OSU's car.
Different policy. If this is true, Meyer effectively said "If you're still interested in other schools you are not welcome here." Hoke's position is more like "If you're still interested in other schools that's fine, but don't label yourself as committed. We will continue to recruit you but other players of your position, also."
Hoke's policy ensures we don't get screwed by an indecisive kid while allowing that kid to make the best decision for himself. Meyer's policy doesn't allow recruits to compare schools. It's either commit right now and end your recruitment or you're not allowed here, even if you end up deciding this is the place for you.
I think you're reading too much from the specifics of each case. This policy basically gives coaches an opportunity to step back and ask, "Okay, do we still want this kid in the class?" without doing anything wrong if they drop him. We probably still want/wanted Brown. If Standifer had done the same thing a month ago, he probably would have been told that his spot wasn't likely to stay available if he went.
I agree that Hoke's policy says that, but Meyer's is a lot more harsh. As in "now or never." I'm sure we're still recruiting Brown, and I bet that if Standifer wanted back in (if he fixed his grades or whatever the rumor was) Hoke would welcome him back, as long as another corner hadn't committed to us at that point.
I agree. If you read between the lines this means Meyer is ok with losing Dunn and gives an easy way out.
On the other hand I could see OSU being way over it with all the Dunn drama. So in this case I think the tactic can be justified.
Just to add I would have visited Michigan on principle alone if someone said that to me.
he truly wanted to be at OSU.
Yea there is a difference between not considering a player committed and pulling his offer outright. One is a bullying tactic and the other is simply a safeguard.
If true, I don't have a problem with this tact. Weren't we lauding Hoke for alegedly doing the same with Pharoah Brown?
Hoke (I believe) said that if Brown takes an official visit to another school, he will consider Brown to "un-verbal" to Michigan, meaning that Michigan would also look elsewhere and it would not be a free pass for Brown to look at others, while Michigan would stopp recruiting his position. He may end up at Michigan still, if was not a pulling of an offer, though.
The difference is that Dunn is an elite prospect and one of those guys, who coaches let do what they want (e.g. Pryor, Seantrel Henderson...) and it's unusual to pull an offer from that highly rated prospect.
I agree with the overall aim of your post but I have one problem and its the same problem I have had with most threads about Dunn:
Dunn may be a great prospect but he is not "elite". You mention Pryor and Henderson. He is not even close, not even in the same universe, as those two players as high schoolers and college prospects. Bear in mind, Dunn isn't even a fringe top 100 player on Rivals. Our very own Kyle Kalis is ranked 114 spots higher than Dunn. Kalis is an elite prospect and I would freak out if we lost him. Dunn is not elite, nor did we ever lose him.
Beautifully put. I'm also less concerned because running backs are very difficult to grade coming out of high school. Every year there are a few "can't miss" prospects like Marcus Lattimore or Michael Dyer, but there are also guys like Kevin Grady.
While I'd love to see Brionte Dunn flip to Michigan because there is a chance he could be very good, he's not a sure thing like Pryor and Henderson.
If this kid was a PSU or Wisconsin commit, nobody would really care if he had any interest in Michigan. But since he was a Buckeye verbal, everyone wants him so we can stick it to OSU. Is this kid good? Yes. But again, he is not elite. We are making this too much about bragging rights between schools. Id love to have him, but certainly will not be upset if he sends his LOI to tsio in Feb. I think it is time to get our priorities in order and look at the bigger picture. Ive said this numerous times, and I truly believe this: Ty Isaac>Brionte Dunn. Im a million times more worried about getting Ty for next year than I am about getting Dunn this year.
according to Scout.com and is higher than any current Michigan commit. That's pretty solid. Let's not knock his ability, now that he has choosen the darkside.
Except that there is a difference in saying we no longer consider you committed and you no longer have an offer. One is the coaches protecting their interests. The other is Urban Meyer being an ass.
The proof is that we are still recruiting Brown. Urban's threat looks to carry a death sentence.
all I have to say is....Dunn who?
I think we are Dunn with him.
Are being announced this week. At least that's what some people on this board and a few others are saying. A part of me believes that the only sanction that Ohio will get will be that they can no longer serve cream cheese with bagels at team breakfasts.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, NOT THE CREAM CHEESE! Will they at least get to keep the schmear and jam?
I want Pharoah Brown back in the fold.
I don't want to have to face the black Gronkowski playing for another B10 team.
Let it go. The kid never really wanted to go to Michigan anyway.
Bri'onte threads are not Dunn, you are crazy.
Michigan, I believe, has not pulled any offers to any highly rated prospects even if they've commited to other schools (Armani Reeves, for example). The scholarship offer still exists for the recruit if they want to come play here. What Urban is doing is straight up classless. Tell all the kids who grew up rooting for Ohio State that if they visit anywhere besides Ohio State, they no longer have an opportunity to go there.
Don't we tell players who've committed to Michigan the same thing?
Mack Brown does that in Texas with the Texas recruits, sure he loses some here or there, but all in all it works out well for him.
No we don't.
Pharoah Brown received a visit by Mattison after he went to visit Oregon. He's just no longer committed. It's not like we've told Pharoah he can never show his face here again. Our coaches want our commits to stay committed. The offers, on the other hand, don't change. Pharoah can still commit again if he wants to.
Pharoh never recieved a vist. It was a false rumor. He's gone.
Yeah questionable move, but hey, at least it will be confirmed pretty soon and any conversation will be done.
Meyer knew the kid wanted to go to Ohio so he played hardball. Didn't want his guy flirting with Michigan anymore. It worked.
It does not take a rocket scientist to figure that out...
And do you blame Meyer?
Makes one wonder whether Meyer will do this often in the future, especially with a lot of these kids growing up OSU fans.
I Dunn-o. Meybe.
it is ....
And Dunn folded.
Well played by Meyer. Gotta give credit where credit is due.
Meyer plays with brass tacks: "are you in our out?" A month and a half out from signing day, I think it is fair to get your ducks lined up, figure out which ones are still waddling around, and plug the holes with solid commits.
On the flip - all these people saying "we didn't want him anyway. Good riddance." Nice, classy ...
My take: it is Brionte's choice, and I can totally understand if he is torn both ways, but thinks going to his home state school is probably the way to go. To which I would say, thanks for your consideration, I think you made a good choice but not the best one, and I look forward to watching Michigan compete against you on the playing field.
Who knows, maybe we still have a shot anyway.
Prospects can change their mind. No reason coaches can't.
Recruiting is hard enough without kids comitting, then looking else where. It makes planning difficult. This just removes a variable.
That being said, this is the first I've heard of this with Dunn. However, there were rumors that the same thing happened with Ryan Shazier and Meyer, and in that case, it back fired on Meyer.
It actually worked pretty well for him.
So, even thought Meyer bent over backwards to get this guy on an official he'd pull the offer? Of a 5-star talent? From Ohio? I'm calling BS. (Not on the OP's insider information, but Meyer's actual resolve.)
From a negotiatons point of view, that's SMRT. He effectively told Dunn to, right here and now, make up your mind. Either choose Ohio now and lose it forever, or risk going to a Michigan OV and not loving it. No second chances. Here and now or gone forever. If I were an 18 year old kid with stars in my eyes, it's an easy choice. Also makes more sense why he was suddenly 150% Buckeye. "No Urban, don't pull my offer!!"
Well, at least Hoke & Co. know what they are up against. I'm curious to see how this plays out when we've got a recruit with a bona fide option between UM and Ohio. I'm still thrilled to have who we have ... Urban's tricks will catch up to him eventually.
Either you're a commit or you're not essentially,
I'll get negged for this, but this was a good move by Meyer. I'm actually surprised Ohio let him tinker back and forth this long.
The difference here whch doesn't make Meyer evil is that Dunn has had countless talks and visits to figure out what UM has to offer. If he doesn't know by now, it's just because he was waiting on sanctions. Simply said, he's already gotten his chances at exploring.
Meh if they get hammered he might tell Urban to f off. I bet Michigan would still let him visit at that point.
I'm guessing the reason Fickell allowed Dunn to waffle for so long was because Fickell doesn't have the clout to do so. He was an interim coach holding the place of a fired coach for a school facing sanctions. He couldn't exactly strong-arm recruits, because being a dick on top of all that is probably a bad idea.
On the other hand, Urban Meyer has won two national championships and doesn't have "interim" in front of his title. He can do these sorts of things and, whether it's dickish or not, has the clout to back it up.
I wish I could +1 the pun post, and the name.
There's only so many puns you can make. I'm pretty sure we're Dunn with the worst of them.
I feel like Urban Meyer is lying to recruits and telling them there will be no further sanctions. I hope Ohio actually gets punished and it blows up in his face. I'm not giving up on Brionte Dunn quite yet.
IF Ohio gets hammered by the NCAA
AND Dunn tries to switch his commitment to UM
-should Hoke refuse him
-should Hoke accept him?
Some of you people are such hypocrites.
This is almost exactly - if not exactly - what Hoke is doing. Michigan has reportedly stopped recruiting Pharaoh Brown for taking a visit to Oregon.
Furthermore, Urban Meyer isn't "forcing" Dunn into a decision. Dunn has already visited Michigan at least twice (unofficially). Dunn has been waiting for the results of the NCAA investigation to make his decision. Once the penalties come down, he will still be able to decide for Michigan if he wants. I'm sure he has enough information from his Michigan visits to determine whether he wants to play in Ann Arbor or not.
If you look at one bit of information ("Urban Meyer said he'll pull Dunn's offer if he visits Michigan"), then it seems heavy-handed...
...until you look at the big picture and add some context. And then it's not really important at all.
Though the way the post is worded, it just makes us feel better, like with the Urbie gun to his head, he had no other choice.
The fact is, he just wasn't that into us.
I will be the first to admit, that without looking at all the evidence that I have now, that I do look like a hypocrite in my earlier posts. I think my reaction went from -
Urban Meyer just bullied a kid
Urban Meyer did what Hoke probably would have done
I felt like there was a difference in the two because of the Brown situation. Now that you have reported that we dropped all ties with him, there doesn't appear to be any difference whatsoever. I guess I was looking to take a shot at Meyer and stand on my righteous pedestal, but it appears that stance is inappropriate now with the given information.
We all can be hypocritical at times. The difference is really marginal to none. It's the interpretation of the wording that people are following. did brionte tell the OSU staff that he would be visiting us? if he was straight foward about it, there lies some difference. i dont think brown told hoke and staff. but, basically, it's the same results, no matter how ones gets to the point.
It's admirable that you're willing to rethink your viewpoint in light of new information.
Well, I probably agree. However, if that is what went down, and I don't doubt it, there may yet be a window for Dunn ....
His Michigan offer is still there. He's been here enough to know what we're all about, and doesn't need to take an official. Just sayin' that I feel a little better about our chances in light of this development than I did last week when I hear the news.
its a bit different. brown visited without telling the coaches. everyone knew dunn was taking visits. if brown told the coaches he could have visited and his spot may or may not have been available. the allegations against Meyer are a bit different. pulling an offfer is different than not being considered a commit.
this. Pulling an offer is different than leaving an offer out there and not considering them a commit to the class.
I just now thought about the rage I would be experiencing if one of our commits started taking visits to Ohio. I guess I would want Hoke to do the same thing.
The more I think about it the more I like what Urban did in this situation. Dunn has been going back and forth for a long time and it just really needed to stop. If you say to a recruit that your offer is done if you visit another school while commited I think that it is legit.
The way I initially read into what Hoke has done and the way I think a lot of people took it, is that they are just no longer considered commited (although it may be more like Meyer given the Brown situation). When I hear that I think "we are going to shop around and come back to you if we don't find another option. I would see that as more a game a recruit may play than the Meyer situation.
Here comes the engagement anology because it is fun. I'll make it breif.
You are engaged to someone, they cheat on you:
A. Tell them you are no longer engaged and you will never be back together.
B. Tell them you are no longer engaged but if you do not find someone else you can get married in the future.
Again, I think Hoke is more along the lines with Meyer on this policy now so it may not be as relevant as before.
Urban found out if Dunn truly wants to go to Ohio State. It was the ultimate "call" and a no lose situation for Meyer.
Onward and Upward.
Not a big deal we lost Dunn. Leaves room for say, Reeves? I'd rather see a stout defense.
Good luck to Dunn except for when he plays Michigan. I hope RJS and Bolden smash his face in for 4 years.
I can't wait til these threads are dunn
Meyer coaches Ohio. That is all I need to know about him in regards to developing my feelings about him. He can recruit however he wants. If he doesn't want to keep offers on the table to kids who visit their number one rival I understand that. I'd be supportive of Hoke if that was his policy. GO BLUE!
No recruit has signed any legally binding documents, nor has any institution; that happens on signing day. Any coach is free to yank a scholarship offer before signing day for whatever reason they want. I also don't blame Meyer if he said "shit or get off the pot" any more than I would blame Hoke for saying the same thing.
operates the sameway.
uhhh, are you not aware that Hoke did this already with someone? And Brionte visited us many times and im sure urb made it clear he cant keep coming up here.