for those who care what fiutak writes.
for those who care what fiutak writes.
About right. Would that we could get some more voices on this.
The kid's family won't sue so there's just not a lot of danger here for ND to do anything other than let this pass.
Wow, great article. Nice to see someone calling out the madness.
I love how ND says they conducted an internal investigation like it means anything. They have zero legal authority. They're just a school. Of course they're investigation won't conclude with heads rolling. ND isn't going to do the right thing on their own. The justice system needs to drop the hammer. I'll tell ya if there was justice they would get sued so bad that the family would be changing the name to the Fighting Sullivans when it's over.
ND probably paid, and paid handsomely to the family under the table for all this to go away. No family loses a child from negligence and goes quietly in this day and age. ND is no different than any other business or major university. Do what you have to keep the money rolling in and cover up what you can.
Sullivan's parents choose cash money over the truth, and now they have to live with that decison. I hope a few million and some football wins enables them to do this.
To be fair, we don't know if they took a settlement. They said they weren't going to sue, and it's not fair to them to say anything else.
I don't think they made the right call, but let's not jump to conclusions about their motive.
Ockham's Razor anybody?
Kid died -> think it could happen at any school -> love ND -> don't sue.
Kid died -> took cash money -> don't sue.
Both are simple, plausible explanations for not suing. Again, wrong decision in my eyes, but both are easily plausible.
I love Michigan as much as the next person. However, if my kid was killed in as stupid a fashion as when Declan Sullivan died, a lawsuit would definitely be one of the things on my mind. I'm not a Domer and I'm aware that they have deep cultural roots in the Catholic community, but ND's handling of the situation would make me extremely angry if it was my child that had died during practice in that fashion.
I agree, and said so a million times. But that doesn't mean that their reasoning had to do with a settlement. I would sue the shit out of anyone/anywhere/anything if this happened to a kid of mine or anyone else where I would have legal standing. That doesn't mean they did. Again, I think you're right, but that doesn't mean they took money and that's their motive.
Again, going toe-to-toe with ND in a lawsuit setting would be a huge commitment for this family, and the desire to still be welcome at alumni meetings might be a factor in the family's reaction to this tragedy.
Obviously they have their reasons, for the last time, I don't agree with them. However, that doesn't make them bad people who "value a settlement over the truth" (paraphrasing). We simply don't know, and until we know we should leave it at that.
However, to me, this seems like an attempt to sweep the whole situation under the rug and pretend like it never happened. ND alumni are following suit and not demanding an investigation, better institutional control, firings, reorganization, or the like. This isn't some grand conspiracy to cover up the facts; this is an attempt to act like a "simple accident" happened, and that's that. It's true that conjecture is all we the bloggers can do at this point in the game, but this whole situation seems fishy, at best.
You're speculating and all he said to start this conversation was that in all fairness to the family, don't speculate.
1) don't take any money and
Why isn't it fair? If they choose money > the truth, then they deserve the criticism that comes with the decision. If they didn't accept any payment and didn't care for the truth to be made public, they still deserve criticism in my book.
Honestly, I cannot understand why the family isn't saying anything at all.
But you can't immediately jump to another conclusion that the only reason for them keeping quiet is a love of confidential money. It just doesn't fit without more information.
A love of, for example, still being welcome at alumni meetings.
.....It's about a shitload of money!
Could it be that they see things differently than you? Perhaps they even agree with the findings?
You seem to be coming at this that Brian Kelly had some sort of "Code Red" moment, ordering Sullivan up into the lift and that's "the truth" that everybody knows and the family is party to covering up.
In fact, it's really not. Kelly and the coaching staff made the decision to practice outside. The decision for videographers to use the lifts or not was made by the video staff (Collins). Collins was using improper information to judge whether lifts were safe to use, although he was diligently checking in on the conditions.
There were many failings along the way for this tragedy to occur. Some demand a pound of flesh. Others just hope that policies and practices change (which ND has taken steps towards) to prevent this from happening again. Unfortuantely, neither will restore Declan.
I'm sure "dilligently checking in on the conditions" included things like "standing outside" and thinking "wow is it windy."
so yes, they see things differently.
"Some demand a pound of flesh" unfortunately, nothing of the sort has happened. Read the article, there was no punishment for anybody.
I'm curious, how much was this settlement worth? When was it signed? What were the terms? Was the nondisclosure an idea from the Sullivans or was it ND? Was it a lump sum payment or is it paid over a period of time? What would that period of time be?
Just curious, since apparently you know they settled out of court.
You would think that Brian Kelly would come up with a better username than "Captain Scumbag."
This is less of a forum topic and more of a fact of life.
What a disgraceful institution. I wonder how harsh some of the crowd signs will be when we play them.
Would a rival fan really use this as ammunition against the ND football team? Seems a little out of bounds.
I'll rip it up. Pretty much everything in sports is on the table as far as I'm concerned, but this damn well better not be. A 20 year old kid died and it's a tragedy.
I've got to think our fans are better than that - but in this world, who knows.
He makes such a good point about Kelly. It's pretty ridiculous that he is still employed at ND; I cannot think of another school (at least one not in the SEC) that would allow a student to die on the watch of a coach and then have the school applaud that same coach in the fall.
... below the article is even more sad. You basically have ND fans supporting the decision. It's sad that people -- many Michigan fans included -- become so partial that they cannot see the truth in front of them. This is a human issue, more than a football issue, but it is unfortunate.
Is quite apparent. The legacy of your child either A) Decorated in a historic, respected University where halls, rooms and scholarships can dedicated to the young man. Or B) Day `127 of the bitter court struggle between Declan Sullivan vs Notre Dame, trial ends Notre Dame moves on and lawyers collect. Certainly there was a payout, donation whatever you want to call it. As much as I dislike ND on the football field is one thing but OSHA discussions over scissors lifts wont get you anywhere especially if it doesnt pertain to you or your child.
I always find it funny how user Irish fails to opine in instances such as this. Also how he went quiet for a couple of months following the loss we handed them. I guarantee you he'll gradually work his way up to commenting quite frequently before this year's game again. It'll be interesting to see how he behaves if Notre Dame wins. Has he been a member when they've beaten us before?
Irish has been pretty uppity as of late and has been duly smacked down each time. He'll get smacked again if he tries defending the university's response.
while Sullivan's death truly was a tragedy, I don't understand what good will come out of finding a single person to pin the blame on. with things like this, it indeed was a large group of people who collectively made errors and had lapses in judgement that snowballed to cause the final event. blaming a single person would just similarly ruin that person's life forever. imagine having to go through life with that burden on your shoulders. and while sullivan's parents are going through a similar amount of anguish, don't you think that they'd want to spare others of that same pain? its a sad situation, but maybe its better to have declan's legacy be one of learning and example as opposed to one of retribution.
but i still despise fiutak.
If you're responsible for the death of an employee (and it's pretty clear that the ND football program is) you deserve to have that follow you the rest of your life.
yes, i agree completely, but the thing is that decisions that affected the final outcome in this scenario likely weren't coming from a centralized source. there wasn't one guy who decided that they had to use a scissor lift, that the weather was good/bad enough to be outside, that declan should've been the one on the lift, et cetera.
if there had been, sure, fire the dude, he deserves it. but there wasn't, so there's nothing to be gained by finding a scapegoat and hanging it around his neck. because that's just as unjust as what happened to sullivan.
sometimes its more useful to try and learn from a situation, and remember the lessons and hold that pain to improve the future, than to try and salve it away by just punishing someone, especially when there's no single person to punish.
Kelly (HC)- "We're practicing outside."
Collins (Video coordinator)- "Mr. Kelly, the wind is too much for our videographers to be up in lifts."
Kelly- "Fuck that, we're practicing outside."
Kelly- "We're going to practice outside."
Collins- "Hell yea, I don't see a problem here at all."
Either way, one of them is directly responsible IMO.
Collins didn't do his job, and the kid died.
"The Investigation found that Declan checked the weather before practice via weather.gov and, from that webpage, accessed the text of the wind warning. The warning indicated the possibility of gusts of up to 60 mph. Klunder, Collins, and Russ did not recall seeing the wind warning when they checked the weather before practice nor accessing the details of that warning"
His job was to ensure safety, he didn't. That's one of the big reasons ND got slapped by the limited hand of IOSHA. Collins didn't do his job, which is what my second conversation said. I was making a point that someone is directly responsible, whether it's Collins or Kelly, there's single person blame that isn't just being vindictive.
The extent of that fault, however, is unclear. What is clear is that Collins wasn't using appropriate information to inform his decision. Was Collins's approach typical for others making similar decisions? If so, his error was systematic. If not, why did he use those particular means for gathering information? Did he lack education? Was he properly educated but using an improper procedure?
However, somewhere along the line there was a specific person who f'd up. Whether it was Collins (who I too think bears most of the responsibility) or the person who told Collins what to do might not be clear.
I certainly think it's clear enough that through negligence or training that's bad enough, Collins should be out of a job. I'm sure that's not hard to do when IOSHA hits an employees department with sanctions after a death.
that was heartbreaking.
It is, and that should be number one to remember, I'm not disagreeing there. Just that there is blame for this; it wasn't senseless.
It just sucks that this is what it takes to get better policies enacted. I don't know what else would, but still...
But if ND is like most programs, practicing outside is the default option. That kind of conversation may never have happened at all. What's likely is that everyone just went about their business as always, only to have it horribly interrupted.
But people had jobs to ensure safety, they didn't ensure safety. That's why this is a big deal, people fell down on the job and it cost a kid his life.
Didn't "most programs", including Ohio State and Michigan, move practices inside on that very day because of the weather conditions?
No remember the guy on the other thread. M lowered their lifts to half height and OSU has remote cameras.
Now I remember. So everyone, except ND, took the adverse weather conditions into account when setting up their practices that day.
There's no doubt that ND, as an institution, is at fault here. I'm just not sure if it's appropriate to single out a specific employee.
I think that depends on what you mean as "single out". Taking someone away in handcuffs and charging them with involuntary manslaughter (not that it would actually hold up) is probably too much. However, firing incompetent employees could be seen as "singling them out" and I think it would be very appropriate. Civil liability would be another question. I don't know how much civil law allows a victim to go personally after an employee of the workplace in question, so I don't know how good/bad as a singling out method it would be.
I don't think ND needs to scapegoat anyone. But it is their responsibility to make sure that the system contains safeguards against a situation like this.
I am concerned that there is no mea culpa here. The school needs to accept responsibility for providing an unsafe environment and make sure that a system is in place that prevents this ever happening again. They need to provide closure to the Sullivan family. Instead, they seem to figure that if they sling enough bullshit against the wall, it will all go away.
It won't go away, and all they are doing is making it worse for everyone involved. The bottom line is that ND is a lot better at talking about doing the right thing than actually doing it.
No one - NO ONE - is getting fired. No one - NO ONE - is getting punished. No one - NO ONE - is accepting any real responsibility or acknowledging that the football program is such a monster that it’s steamrolling over two tragedies and driving right along as if Seeberg and Sullivan were merely losses to Navy and Tulsa.
No, don’t you dare suggest that Notre Dame president, Reverend John Jenkins, is taking any real responsibility for Sullivan’s death simply by saying he is. To cut through the spin control, what he’s doing is dispersing the blame by saying that “many individuals and departments” were to blame for the tragedy.
We-Are-N-D We Are Notre Dame.
What happened at ND was a tragic accident and I cant imagine the pain that the family of that young man has gone through. We have no way of knowing that some deal has been cut behind closed doors to keep the family quiet. Could it simply be that the family is accepting the situation for what it is...a tragic accident that was preventable. How does destroying the lives of ND staff by firing everyone who could have been responsible make the situation any better? Does making accusations about shady closed door deals without a shred of evidence make the situation any better? The best course of action is to make sure that nothing like this ever happens again by educating everyone at ND (and nationwide for that matter) to the risks associated with the work and by putting safety procedures in place to prevent such occurances. That seems to be the course ND is following.
That's a philosophical debate about punishment but suffice to say they should already have been trying to ensure safety and when that didn't happen there need to be consequences. This isn't time=0.
At some point performance becomes unacceptable.
Right, because there's never been an accident that wasn't one person's direct fault.
Not to get all pro-ND, but as someone who works with risk management every day, the truth is that sometimes how we think things should be doesn't comport with reality.
Kelly miscalculated the risk of the wind and a scissor lift on that fateful day. Does that excuse him of his discretion and preclude any punishment?
Ok but this wasn't a borderline case. Wind gusts were over double the outside range of "acceptable."
Admittedly I thought Notre Dame would do better, but good Lord. I guess what would we do as fans if it happened here? *Trying to put myself in ND shoes, just not fitting though*
At any rate I hope it works out for everyone involved in the situation. Except for Kelly, who is -- at least indirectly -- responsible for his death. Not sure I want things to work out for him.
I live in Chicago and you had to have had your head COMPLETELY ass encapsulated that day to not know that the wind was coming. The warnings were everywhere for a couple days ahead of time. So while malice may have been absent, so was competence, and the result in this case is WAY past anything stupid I might do at work.
Second, my Irish friends here are in fact troubled by the lack of accountability we're seeing with two dead kids and now the Floyd deal. Yes, you'll get the people who post stupid stuff in response to the original article, but the quiet majority I know really are concerned.
Last, "Irish" on this board surely understands how tragic this stuff is (past comments show it). He doesn't need to be called out.
I agree, also. If I remember correctly he was the one who initially brought up ND's response to the Floyd situation. Irish seems like a good guy (for an ND fan).
Screw Notre Dame..
I'm a little surprised at all the hate and/or reprimand towards the family. There is no indication they took any money other than pure speculation. I am not aware of any info indicating this was anything but an accident. I am also willing to bet that a not so insignificant number of other schools said, oh crap, that could have been us, and then promptly performed a quiet internal review of the safety of their own practices.
It is not like there was any precedence of this happening before or any regulatory body suggesting before the fact that ND was engaging in unsafe taping. Lets just hope that we learn from this and no others students are hurt in similar circumstances now that we have seen a precedence.
Notre Dame has announced, after conducting a thorough investigation in the Sullivan case, that Charlie Weis will be fired. Press release to follow.
Money was not the motivation for the family, although I would be surprised if they did not get something. ND has this damage control down to a science, they did everything they could do to make the family feel at "home" with ND, including the special mass with people from his dorm with glasses like he wore, the declan scholarship, etc.
ND provided a choice, hang on to your anger and fight us & we take the memorializing stuff away or move on & let his death have "special meaning" (& ND save a load of $$$).
It is terrible & most ND alums I know are not happy about it, I think if Kelly was a 3rd yr coach with a 10-20 record, he would be gone but the people who have power at that school frankly do want to win again and are willing to have some rules bent to win. If ND was still at the top of the college football world, then they would hold their head high but I think there is a feeling that they have been beaten down for a while & firing kelly would just send the program into 2/3 more years of oblivion & they dont want to do it even if it means scarificing some morals, it is sad b/c I always thought that ND was one of the cleaner programs, guess that's changed.