Don't forget about them, as of right now they've got a far better resume than ND does. I hope they win out and keep ND out of the title game. Plus, every time USC loses it hurts ND's strength of schedule, so I'm glad RichRod knocked them off today.
OT- Notre Dame 2012 = Ohio State 2002
that if both ND and Kansas State go undefeated, the latter will go to the MNCG, I have a bridge to sell you. If ND goes undefeated they are in.
Two weeks ago for saying the same thing. I agree whole-heartedly. Media loves ND. Enough to clear the hump. Especially over a Big 12 team when neither have a conference championship game.
I am not familiar enough with the BCS formula to run numbers, but assuming Alabama remains undefeated and #1, while both ND and K-State win out, I'm not sure that ND being ranked one step higher (#2 vs #3) would overcome computers that have historically been in love with the Big 12. Remember when Oklahoma could lose its conference championship game and still be far and away the top BCS team? There have been significant changes to the formula since then, but I think the Big 12 bump still exists.
The bcs and media may just crown em after they're last game if they're undefeated...they are who we thought they were. You wanna crown em? Then crown they ass!
Wait... KSU has the better resume? Really?
Michigan State (5-4)
Stanford (6-2) (ranked)
Oklahoma (5-2) (ranked)
Missouri State (n/a)
North Texas (3-5)
Oklahoma (5-2) (ranked)
Iowa State (5-3)
West Virginia (5-2) (ranked)
Texas Tech (6-2) (likely ranked)
Arkansas State (n/a)
Fresno State (6-3)
Tennessee Tech (n/a)
Arizona (5-3) (likely ranked)
Washington State (2-6)
Arizona State (5-3)
We just dismantled a top10 team in their house.. Give us some credit guys.
KSU dismantled the same team, and looked much better doing it. And they may wind up doing it again in the Big12 Championship game.
That will matter.
the Big Twelve won't be playing a championship game.
If you're talking about Oklahoma, KState did NOT dismantle them...it was a close game, decided in part by key turnovers by OU. It's hard to argue one team beat OU "better" than the other, because both thems beat OU at home.
Of course, what you say at the end is very true.
Kansas State basically lucked into a close win thanks to some crucial turnovers by Oklahoma at big moments... won by 5 points. ND just dismantled Oklahoma and won convincingly by 3 scores.
You obviuosly did not watch the Kansas State vs. Oklahoma game.
Okay, Kansas State definitely didn't dismantle Oklahoma but they also didn't luck into a win. Oklahoma only had one turnover in the second half, the end of the 3rd quarter.
Personally, I was surprised how well Notre Dame's offense played against Oklahoma, I don't think anyone expected over 400 yards of offense to be put up by them. As for Notre Dame dismantling Oklahoma? The score was tied with 5 minutes to go in the game, hardly "dismantling" despite the final score of 30-13.
They allowed OU to rush for 16 yards. 184 less than season average. They allowed OU to score 13 points. 30 less than season average.... Errr. Yah.
Trolling, because facts don't matter.
KSU won 24-19...
Oregon's SOS ranking 50 (sagarin)
Oregon's remaining schedule:
@ USC (6-2)
@ Cal (3-6)
@ OSU (6-1)
ND's SOS ranking 20 (sagarin)
ND's remaining schedule:
@ Boston College (2-6)
Wake Forest (4-4)
@ USC (6-2)
Oregon's remaining schedule W-L is 21-11
ND's remaining schedule W-L is 16-16
That game would be a total joke. Alabama by atleast 35
Just woke up, and I logged in specifically to say: WORST SPORTS DAY EVER. That is all.
Love "Quad of Fuck". Hate your total disregard of paragraphs.
And use of the word wizzy.
I'm extremely interested in how the coaches are going to spin this mess of a game. There are so many questions:
Did Rawls kick a small child or something to piss somebody off? I can't see any reasons he doesn't get more touches especially when Fitz isn't performing well. Maybe it's not Fitz's fault, but at least TRY.
We played Gardner last year at QB multiple times--even with Denard also on the field. What happened to that? Has the coaching staff said "No, you're a WR now, no snaps for you lol" or completely revamped the playbook (which to me seems like a couple of pages at times) to where Gardner would be lost? I have no problem with Bellomy coming in, but when the dude goes 0/10 with a couple of picks to start, you have to think "Hmm, I don't think this is working. Don't we have another scholarship QB on the roster?"
Frankly, I believe Borges has no clue how to use Denard, and is trying to force him to run plays Borges is more familiar with, while at the same time trying to minimize Denard's mistakes. The result: obvious runs and short passes. I was pleased at the deep ball appearing a couple times today, but holy WR drops Batman. Our offense as a whole just looks completely illprepared to play against a team we don't have a massive talent advantage over. This is sickening.
I understand it's not fair to raid the Ann Arbor Torch and Pitchfork co. until Borges has had QBs progress through his system, but shit son, you have to make do with what you have.
Fuck it, I'm going back to the kitty thread. /kitty
a very fortunate year and the ball just bounced our way.
Did you not watch the last 2 minutes of UTL? That was not a replicatable process.
Those fortunate breaks are part of football. Some games you get them others you don't. But what's sickening is ND is getting those same breaks we did last year.
Wouldn't it be magical to have Notre Dame go undefeated and still manage to not get to the national championship? I don't want Notre Dame to ever win either but if they are going to have a perfect year at least let them get heartbroken with no national championship.
If Alabama beats LSU (and they should) they are a near lock to make it to the SEC championship game with Georgia who is also a near lock with the easiest schedule in the last 4 games and possibly the easiest overall schedule for an SEC team I've seen in the last 5 years. Bama should crush them.
Kansas State caught a gigantic break that Oklahoma State and TCU's quarterbacks are out for the rest of the year! Would have been better games if not for that. Baylor should be no problem so that leaves a matchup with Texas at home to get to the championship game.
Oregon is my most likely candidate of these three to lose having to play at USC, Stanford, and at Oregon State along with a likely rematch against USC in the Pac 12 championship for a team that's current best win is over a 3 loss Arizona State team.
Second question is does Notre Dame deserve to leapfrog any of these teams to get to the championship game assuming they go undefeated? They would have signature wins over Stanford, Oklahoma, and USC which look really good and wins against teams that are unfortunately looking worse over time including Michigan State, Michigan (unfortunately), and several other middling teams.
An undefated Alabama is not even worth talking about. They'd be in the game.
Kansas State would have wins over Oklahoma, West Virginia, Texas Tech, and Texas. I don't see ND leapfrogging that resume especially since KState has the likely Heisman trophy winner.
Oregon would have wins over USC, Stanford, and Oregon State. I'd have to give it to Notre Dame if both were undefeated with 2 of these opponents in common and Notre Dame playing many more teams that will likely at least be bowl eligible by year end. However, style points (unfairly IMO) against Stanford and USC could count big time.
What would be really interesting is if Alabama lost and you have either a 1 loss Bama, LSU, or Georgia, an undefeated Kansas State, and an undefeated Notre Dame to pick from for the title game....
Unfortunately, ND would almost surely get the nod over K-State. Right now each teams' most respectable win is over Oklahoma and I think if ND ends up beating USC, along with their win over Stanford, that would look better than K-State's wins over West Virginia, Texas Tech, and Texas. Plus ND's overall schedule is more impressive...I honestly thought they would be at least a 4 loss team prior to the start of the season.
The most interesting scenario IMO would be if Alabama, Notre Dame, and Oregon all end the season undefeated. Obviously Alabama would be a lock to play for the NC, but choosing between ND and Oregon would be quite a debacle. In that situation I think Oregon-Bama would easily be the better matchup but ND-Bama would be quite appealing from a media standpoint.
USC likely will end up with 4 losses (at least). Stanford stll has to play Oregon, Oreg St. and UCLA. They will probably lose at least 2 of those to get to four loses. Pretty good chance K-State's Texas Tech win will look alot better then either Stanford or USC. Looking at Tech's remaining schedule they could very easily have 9 or 10 wins at the end of the year. Its highly unlikely that someone in the Big12 will not end up with 9 or 10 wins (other than OK).
Style points should and do matter to some degree. Notre Dame's schedule is not as good as K-State's. K-State will have played 5 true road games to ND's 4 (one of which is at awful BC). ND's computer numbers will be in decline starting next week as there closing schedule is awful. The fact that they do not play in the last week of the season will also hurt them. Oregon's 49-0 dismantling over Arizona continues to look better and better. Until someone actually comes within 2 scores of them in my opinion they should be a solid number 2. The Ducks will also likely have 2 wins over USC see as they would likely see them in the Pac 12 title game.
some research and according to Jeff Sagarin's computer rankings.
Of the top ten teams, he has Florida with the most difficult @ # 7 SOS, Oregon St. @ # 9 SOS and ND @ #10 SOS after that it's not close. with Alabama @ # 26 SOS and K State @ # 30.
He has UM @ #22 SOS and MSU @ # 21
i found myself thinking the same thing - yet OSU seemed even luckier, at least so far. With USC looking vulnerable, ND is very close to having a shot at Alabama. And though we all think that is an impossible task for any team, a month of bowl prep can cause interesting things to happen. An ND national championship is a very real possibility.
Sorry but no, Notre Dame cannot and will not beat Alabama. I don't think anyone will but especially not Notre Dame in the chamionship game. Given a month to prepare for any game, Nick Saban with his current team would never lose.
And you're more worried about what Kelly may come up with than Saban?
I never thought I would say this but if Bama loses to say LSU and Oregon loses to someone, it's ND vs. K State for the national title. I could see ND winning that game unfortunately.
True but i wouldnt be so sure about ND making the title game. Kstate has an easy schedule to finish the year and if they both win out im not sure who would get it. Im assuming an SEC team will get in just because theyve won 6 straight
I'm sure the BCS will have ND jump K-State just because they're ND and the "tough" *cough* *cough* schedule that they play
NDs current SOS is 10, KSU is 30.
It's time we admit that ND is a good football team. They have kept improving each game in some manner. Hurts me to say it but Kelly is a good coach and does recruit well. He seems to be able to coach up the players.
Yes, unfortunately. The resurgance of ND and OSU hurts us directly. More than any other teams, we compete with those two for the recruits that we want.
Them now becomming the new "it" teams in the midwest when there were some clouds hanging over them the last couple of years is not good news for us. An undefeated Urban Meyer and a Brian Kelly in the NC game are our worst nightmares. There is still some season left to hope that does not happen.
We are close, but we still need a couple of more years to build critical mass where we can always count on competing successfully, especially on offense.
I know it will be tougher with Kelly and Meyer but I have faith in Hoke and his staff to continue to recruit at this high level. And with Denard I think we can still run the table this year and hope we get some help with a Nebraska loss.
I would say more indirectly. While there is some overlap, ND recruits more nationally than UM does. This is why the move to the ACC, this is why maintaining USC and Stanford is a priority.
"Nothing is worse than seeing your rivals win?"
ND could have knee-jerked and fired Kelly, but have allowed him enought time and given him enough support for his program to finally "leap." Urban Meyer is getting the full support of the program and fanbase in Columbus. Sadly, there's a lot more of your definition of "worse" on the horizon. The only bright spot is that Sparty is regressing toward the mean.
I would think twice about scheduling ND. Until there's a real playoff, and the champions of all major conferences are guaranteed a spot, the Wolverines should schedule four tomato cans and hope that conference strength gets them to the mini-playoff once in awhile. An undefeated Big Ten Champion would look pretty good for one of four mini-playoff spots.
The "majority" has spoken. Under David Brandon, the Wolverines will juxtapose 21st century marketing with 20th century football. The boosters, trustees, and a loud "majority" of the fanbase are apparently happy with that. At this point, it's obvious that there is no way to fight it.
So, I'll just have to continue to cheer for "my" team and hope that I live long enough to see another National Championship, mythical or otherwise, for the Maize and Blue. Within three years, we'll know if this is actually possible, or if Urban Meyer can combine his program's world class cheating with a 21st century offense to own the Big Ten.
A "20th Century" football team is kicking the living shit out of every other team in the SEC. You might remember them from our first game this season, unless you understandably drank yourself into oblivion in a desperate attempt to forget that night.
This guy is just taking another opporitunity to complain about the firing of RR. Whether you like it or not RR was not a good fit at Michigan with his "21st century football". And like Njia said Alabama is doing just fine with "20th century football" and looking at the foundation that Hoke has set in place we will be right up there with the elite of college football sooner rather than later. and anyone who thinks Meyer will dominate the B1G is delurious.
Because the time it took Kelly to "leap" was in year 3....
Yes, but they are doing it with NFL talent. They could win with leather helmets and 19th century handoffs into the line of scrimmage.
I don't think we can replicate that at Michigan, but there is always hope.
the BCS does not garentee Conference Champions a place in the play off.
Great topic... I was thinking that Kansas State was the 2012 OSU because OSU didn't have the most athletic QB but was very smart and won games for them. Notre Dame has scratched and clawed its way out of many games with their defense much like the buckeyes but ND just has a much better quarter back compared to Krenzel.
One person commented on the fact that USC will probably have a few loses by the time they play ND. If USC does implode, that win could be over a team not ranked in the top ten for ND but that equally could be bad for Oregon. There could be a good chance Oregon and USC don't play twice in the same year and the Ducks plays maybe UCLA, Arizona in the tite game... While a brand name win over USC is good for any tme, the Ducks not playing them in the Pac 12 title game might sour their hopes at going to the title game. Not many ranked opponents left for Oregon to beat.
Can ND run the tables? Can they get to the title game? Can they beat that team to beat an SEC team in the title game? Lots of football left.
I think USC losing hurts ND much more then Oregon. Say USC doesn't get to the Pac 12 title game its like UCLA would be the team replacing them. UCLA plays 3 of their last 4 at home with their only road game against WSU. They would likely be ranked top 20 by then at least. USC loses to other Pac 12 teams will hurt ND in the computers while they shouldn't hurt Oregon much if at all. The Ducks are probably very big Arizona fans at the moment. 49-0 over a possibly ranked team at the end of the year would look pretty good to alot of pollsters.
their SOS is # 62, three times as easy as UM.
You're insane if you think Gholson is better than Krenzel.
I have no love for OSU or ND, but you can't say those teams were/are frauds.
We as fans tend to under value defense. But a disruptive defense is the sign of a quality team. It's also more reliable than a streaky offense after a 30+ day layoff prior to the NC game.
Folks, learn to love 2002 OSU and 2012 ND, because them is us. That is our future. We are going to win on D, Hoke has made that clear in word and deed.
Hopefully we can get the offense up to a level beyond DeBord/Lloyd days, since you can't consistently win scoring 17 points anymore, but we are not going to be Oregon or Texas Tech or Boise.
Our aspirational goal is somewhere toward the Alabama end of the offensive spectrum. We can recruit and coach well enough on D to approximate that. We'll see about the O in the next couple of years.
Their defense is elite despite the fact that their secondary isn't great but they found ways to work around it. Their front 7 is just as good as anybody. They don't make mistakes and tackle well.
Normally, ND who started out fast in the past are incredibly lucky, but they aren't. I think forced TO is just slightly above average. They turn the ball over 9 times which is about a little more than once a game.
Last year, they were unlucky with regards to turnover margins. They were a 9-4 team (shoudl be 11-1 if TO margin is even) that basically is plauged by turnovers, but the trend has reversed. The result for this year? A undefeated ND.
I know ND gets a lot of brand-points to put them in over either of them, but ND has played almost every game very close and KSU and Oregon have been blowing out pretty much everyone,
It would be a travesty for ND to get in ahead of either of them the way they are playing right now. I'd say Oregon would get the nod by virtue of the extra game they will play against a theortically quality opponent in the PAC-12 title game. If they should fall though, I still have to believe K-State's resume is good enough to overcome the bias if they win out.
Does Div1AA teams count? Because KSU and Oregon have played 2 of them each. Frankly in the new world if you schedule a 1AA you should be excluded from the playoff.
As long as someone takes down the SEC I'm okay with it. Would be nice to see a northern team win it all. We've already lost to them, so whatever.
The SEC being taken down a notch would be fun to watch. I don't care if it is Oregon, KState or ND. Alabama looks like it is playing a cut above the rest of the SEC right now. They haven't given up more than 14 all season and haven't scored fewer than 33.
As TBone1966 up there pointed out, ND's SOS to this point is better than Kansas State's and Oregon's. We can all say "Notre Dame's resume isn't as good as..." till we're maize and blue in the face, but that doesn't make it true. In fact, unless I'm missing someone, of the teams who remain undefeated, Sagarin has Notre Dame's strength of schedule as the most difficult. Read that again: Of the undefeated teams that everyone is hyping, Notre Dame has played AND BEATEN collectively better competition than any of the others.
And while Alabama, Oregon, and Kansas State have looked better from start to finish, Notre Dame has improved throughout the season. The Notre Dame team that beat Oklahoma in Norman as double-digit underdogs is not the same team that struggled against Purdue and needed a comedy of errors against us to win at home.
While I still think that Notre Dame loses a season-opening, neutral-site game to Alabama in much the same fashion as we did (and probably worse)...I think ND has closed the gap considerably through their development this season and would fare much better at this point though not necessarily enough to win. Credit where it's due, though, whether we like it or not.
ND would not beat Alabama right now, even with the offense they displayed last night.
I don't think ND has beaten collectively better competition then Kansas St. Their best win other than OK is Stanford. Kansas St. has beaten Tex Tech, W.Virginia, Iowa St. , 2 of which were on the road. ND has played a stronger schedule then Oregon so far, but three of there weakest opponets are yet to come. BC is going to put a dent in that.
now we know how everyone felt about us last year. somehow everything last year just went our way.
I disagree with the comparison. You say that the 2002 Buckeyes "lucked" into the MNC game. I would argue that, while you're correct that OSU was never dominant offensively, they didn't need to be. 2002 was the high water mark for Tresselball, where the offensive strategy wasn't based on scoring points, it was based on setting up good field position for the defense and avoiding turnovers. They executed that strategy well.
Tell me you weren't pissing your pants on the 4th down at Purdue.
That's a coin-flip situation. You could have just as easily missed it. There was definitely some luck involved, just like us last year.
Are you talking about Holy Buckeye, or the last play in OT this year? If you're talking Holy Buckeye, no, I wasn't worried. Worst case scenario, I figured Krenzel could get the first on the ground - dude was surprisingly mobile - and Nuge would send it into OT. There was a moment of terror when he threw it, but that's par for the course with me and OSU quarterbacks. If you're talking about the OT this year, yeah, I was scared.
Do we really need someone to bull crap up their own hypothetical scenarios and post them to justify that "ND isn't any good"? They're undefeated. To quote this board's mentality, you sound so "little brotherish" coming out with this.
Agreed. I don't really see any reason for people to still doubt ND as a chamionship contender. If they win out, they deserve to be in the national title game over almost anyone (cept bama) because of their schedule.
"one of those magical years where every call, turnover, break, big play, and general karma seems to be going in their favor"
Sooo...us last season?
Yes. Most of us admitted it then, and we'll admit it now.
How many times have you heard the statement that Michigan could be a better team in 2012 than 2011, but they'll have a worse record in 2012 than 2011?
For purely informational purposes, if Notre Dame were in the Big Ten this season, as of today,, they would be:
- 5th in rushing offense, and 2nd in rushing defense
- 7th in passing offense, and 5th in passing defense
- 6th in total offense, 3rd in total defense
- 8th in scoring offense (by average points), but 1st in scoring defense
In 2002, at season's end, Ohio State was:
- 10th in passing offense and defense
- 5th in rushing offense, but 1st in rushing defense
- 4th in scoring offense, but 1st in scoring defense
- 4th in total offense, but 2nd in total defense
From a statistical standpoint, the 2002 Buckeyes might have the edge for being the scarier team on defense, but I guess that if the basis of the comparison is that these teams are having "magical" years, then I don't understand where the OP wants to go with that. For example, 2002 set up the Buckeyes for quite a bit of sustained success last decade, so other than the fact that they did not go undefeated again under Tressel, I believe, I don't think it can be implied that this was a totally isolated incident unless it is just about the record. Further, there isn't enough time under Kelly at ND to make a good comparison, in my opinion, at least not if we're talking about deeper stats than wins and losses.
This thread disgusts me. Regardless of the stats, it does FEEL very similar.
1. OSU 2002 was much better team than ND 2012.
2. ND will be exposed. Unfortunately, they will be served up to a SEC team, who will feast on their livers, reaffirming to everyone that it's all about the SEC. Everyone else is just cannon fodder.
I will enjoy #2, but not the SEC gloating.
I was actually kind of hoping the national title game with be a bama-ND matchup and see Alabama detsroy them. I thought we'd win out and have our only two losses be against teams in the chamionship game and also then ND can experience the same type of game against bama that we did.
something that bugs me about all this discussion about SOS as it relates to ND: every game they play is an out of conference game for their opponent. so, aside from hype, the game doesn't mean as much for a team that's not in the bcs top 5 and is trying to win their conference. seems to me that ND not having to win a conference should made to count against them somehow. maybe that's just because i hate ND, or maybe that's why i hate ND.
So at 8-0 and with a schedule that everyone said would destroy us at the start of the year, ND is NOT a top10 team.... Outside of Alabama, who should be a top10 team? Oregon and KSU have both played 1AA teams, Oregon 3 and KSU 2. ND has never played a 1AA team. To me both KSU and Oregon smell more than ND. At some point over 8 games when you are the #2 team in scoring defense next to Bama, you have to start giving some props.
Looks like they played one this year. If the NCAA doesn't want those to count, they'll make it so those don't count. Till then Notre Dame not playing one and 99 cents won't even get you a cup of coffee.
And seriously, if ND and Oregon were playing, and you had to bet your house on the game, you'd put your money on ND? I think ND and KSU are pretty close, but it's Alabama, then Oregon, then everyone else.
Oregon seems to crap the bed when they run into a good defense. Recent BCS history shows this. 26-17 vs OSU in 2010 and 22-19 vs Auburn in 2011.
Would I be delusional fan and say ND would flat out win? No. But don't act like no one has ever shut down that offense.
The only similarities I see in these teams are the D-Line and LB. Ohio State had legit game changers at all 4 DL positions, probably 2 of 3 LB positions, CB, and an all-decade player at S. We also had a first rounder at WR, a should-have-been all-time great at RB, and a QB who minimized mistakes and always had a knack for the big play. Our kicker was the best the Big Ten has seen in the last two decades. Also don't forget that we had Dantonio as our DC. Love him or hate him, you have to admit he is one of the best defensive coaches out there. That team didn't win big half of the time, but I'd put that D up against any offense of the past 20 years. The O just had to do enough to win and they certainly were capable of that.