I hate this politically correct bullshit.
OT: North Dakota nickname change
Nancy Pelosi is going to show up in some Left-Wing Mystery Machine and take you away.
Agree. PC=the end of this country.
oblivion for writing crap like this.
Now there comming to get me.
idk, I did get a giggle out of the Mystery Machine part.
"And I would've gotten away with being unPC if it weren't for you rotten kids AND NANCY PELOSI!"
Hahaha. Post of the day.
While there are certain cases where such mascots should be kept (Florida State, North Dakota come to mind), there is a fair point to be made.
Have you SEEN Chief Noc-A-Homa? It is a ridiculously insulting caricature.
What about the Kinston Indians (Cleveland's High-A affiliate)?
What about the Redskins? A slur considered offensive by native Americans.
Eastern Washington University actually called their team "Savages" for many years.
Southeastern Oklahoma State also used "savages" until 2006.
What about the Saltine Warrior that Syracuse used? Look up a picture of that.
the creepy Cleveland Indians logo. That has to be the most racist thing in all of American professional sports.
If it weren't for that logo, I'd be thinking it's strange to name a team after a group of South Asians.
reminded me of a funny pic from a previous anthro course.
I'm not sure anyone has ever accused OHIO of being overly tolerant ...
i agree that the Indians should probably consider retiring "Chief Wahoo" to avoid any future lawsuits. I know it takes away from the history of the team, but since teams are suppose to appear PC then i think they should just follow suit. I have noticed in the past few years the Indians have seemed to promote the "I" logo and the old fashioned "C" logos more. I mean the University of Illinois had to retire Chief Illiniwek why are the Indians still allowed to do it.
I one that i am really surprised at is the Washington Redskins. That just sounds completely offensive but yet the NFL has said nothing, or at least made a big deal of it. They too have started to promote their new log with the "R" in place of the native american.
the NCAA can't tell MLB teams what to do.
"I mean the University of Illinois had to retire Chief Illiniwek why are the Indians still allowed to do it."
I know the NCAA has no say in MLB, but i was saying that the governing body of the select team would say something. For example, MLB would tell the Indians to retire Chief Wahoo and use their alternate logo. Another example, the NFL would tell the Washington Redskins to change the team name.
The problem with being tradition-rich: a lot of history was in really bad taste.
I wish they would go after the Indians and Redskins before having "Fighting Sioux" and "Illini" shut down. A lot of schools with Native American nicknames have used that connection to become an excellent popular resource for getting in touch with our nation's pre-Columbian culture.
What bugs me more is when people call this a "P.C." issue. It's such a complicated issue, like for example, should the Illini get permission and traditions from the local Sioux tribes or from the Peoria remnants who now live in Oklahoma (and didn't move there by choice, by the way)? It involves psychology (like how stereotypes get reinforced by symbology) and history, and pop culture, and the negative disassociate effect for the school when changing a mascot, not to mention the enormous cost to an athletic program and its fans for a mascot change.
Point: it's way, way, way beyond Political Correctness. It's a super-complicated issue that is being fought in an arena where complexity is notoriously void.
I still can't believe that the football team from the nation's capital is called the Redskins.
Braves = fine.
Redskins = not fine.
What if they changed their mascot to a potato?
And I would buy a jersey!
There's a pretty straightforward distinction to be made here. Nicknames based on specific tribal names (Seminoles, Chippewas, Hurons, Sioux) tend not to cause offense and may in fact be supported by the tribe in question.
Nicknames based on tribal positions (Chiefs, Braves) are viewed as too generic to really affect anyone either positively or negatively.
Nicknames based clearly on a white person's view of Native Americans (Indians, Redskins, Savages, Redmen) are offensive.
Likewise, mascots based clearly from a white person's perspective (e.g., the Cleveland Indian logo) are offensive, whereas ones that attempt to accurately portray a tribal warrior do not cause offense. It's not that complicated, but the NCAA doesn't seem interested in thinking through this too seriously.
Seems like good, solid reasoning, to me. Plus one, sir.
Wow... sorry I complimented the guy.
How is calling a team the Indians offensive? Are ranchers offended when teams are named the Cowboys? I understand the point with "Redskins" and "Savages", but Indians? In my opinion, the fact that people would nickname teams after certain people groups is a sign of respect. They're saying that they WANT to be associated with the ideals and characteristics of said people group.
There's a reason you don't see any teams named the "Swiss" or "Hicks"...
It's a double standard also. Look at the people that are mad about the Ole Miss mascot for example. By the PC rule that says native american nicknames are offensive, shouldn't they also think that the Rebel is actually mocking the old south plantation/slave owners? You can't have it both ways, either these nicknames are glorifying those they're named after or they're not.
I'll grant you that "Indians" is more debatable than the others. Some people like it (and prefer it to "Native Americans"), some don't. But at any rate, it is a name originally bestowed by Europeans, which is part of the reason why it may cause offense.
I actually think the preferred designation is now "American Indian," -- even over the term "Native American."
Yeah, when I majored in early American history ~2 years ago now, the scholarly nonsense seemed to be trending back toward American Indian instead of Native American. I think it was because the "Native Americans" had migrated to the US, and thus the name wasn't really accurate (but again, 2ish years ago and surprisingly it wasn't my #1 concern).
No, it's because the vast majority of American Indians call themselves ... American Indians.
And one of the most compelling objections against these naming practices (and there are a lot) has to do with the fact that actual Indians were completely robbed of power over their names and images.
It isn't that simple when the team is named the "Savages." You could be glorifying the idea of a team being so strong and savage (and other related associations), but you would in turn be offending the group you are calling savages. It's possible to do both.
Not to mention consigning them to the past, as "civilization" is presumed to have overcome "the savage." Indians, in this vision, can never be part of the modern world, only destroyed by it or out of place in it (challenging this "Dances with Wolves" idea is one of the things that makes "Smoke Signals" a great film).
I myself am a savage.
I don't like being a mascot. It is what it is. Some are offensive, others have tribal support. Redskin in tantamount to the "N" word. Why can't they pick a damn animal like everyone else. Better yet, if they want North Dakota to be highly associated with the Sioux tribes they can always give it back!
ok, I'll chill now...
I noticed while at the CCHA tournament that the Miami (OH) students whoop and howl tapping their open palms against their mouth (Hollywood stereotype of native americans) during an opponent's penalty, as a hold-over from their days as the Miami Redskins. To me, that was ridiculously offensive. It'd be like a school mascot named after jews throwing coins around or school mascots named after african americans firing pistols in the air. It's just not representative of the culture, at all.
Whereas on the other hand you had the University of Illinois and Chief Illiniwek. The student selected to be Chief Illiniwek was required to take course in Native American culture and history, as well as learn an authentic native american ritual dance from the Sioux (the closest living relatives of the Illini) and the garment he wore during his performances was made by the Sioux and given the University of Illinois. Obviously the intent here is to respect and honor the culture and tradition. Not stereotype it.
That's awesome. I remember when we got to be the team that played Illinois when he performed the ritual dance at halftime for the very last time. On ESPN news, they kinda made a light of it. But when they showed the crowd after he was done, you could see women and children crying. Not the Wade Boggs single-tear down the cheek. It was what I have heard described as "ugly crying." Convulsing, uncontrollable and it made me feel like I was seeing something intimate that wasn't supposed to be witnessed.
I was a senior in high school and it was looking an awful lot liking I was going to Illinois at the time. Though I grew up a Michigan fan, I was an Illinois basketball fan (for obvious reasons). I cried like a little girl when watching that.
There certainly is a major difference between those two examples, but frankly I'm not surprised that it was lost on the NCAA.
So "Native Americans" whooping and hollering is a stereotype? I thought they actually did this sort of thing. Dammit.
Seriously though. Why does everyone get their panties in a bunch over this?
On a side note- Can you imagine what would happen if Notre Dame's name was The Fighting Africans? haha- I don't mean this to be racist..it's just ridiculous how sensitive everyone is.
and i am offended by notre dame's nickname. not all of us are fighters.
for instance, i am a bit of a wuss.
Seems like a pretty bold and heavy line to me. Illinois really goes out of their way to honor the Illini/Sioux, Miami used a slur as a mascot and still mocks Native Americans as a holdover.
It's like day and night.
The amazing thing about this, is I wholeheartedly agree with the part you wrote about Chief Illiniwek, but my advisor at college was a huge activist for American Indian issues (being Italian-American himself) and REALLY celebrated when the Illiniwek mascot went away. He thought it was horribly inaccurate and offensive.
I am part Osage, Choctaw, and Cherokee (in addition to English and German) and I thought he was nuts.
Nice guy, though. Very kind and a good teacher.
require Michigan to change their nickname since there are now no living wolverines in the state.
No then we will just ask Alaska to give us Biff II and Beenie II.
So how exactly is fighting Sioux any different from fighting Irish? ND should have to change their nickname too
Gingers Unite, we must throw out this horrible sterotype. It makes me mad enough to punch someone's lights out.
Q: Why did God invent beer?
A: To keep the Irish from ruling the world.
For the Record, I am Irish, German, Scottish, & Cherokee.
that was whiskey not beer, get your stereotypes straight:)
Gets me in the mood for a great Irish song.
I got the beer confused with my German heritage, the whiskey was for the Scotch/Irish in me. I don't drink too much as the Cherokee in me takes over. Let's have a donnybrook, lads.
Not that it should make much of a difference as far as potentially offended groups are concerned, but at least ND had (has?) a largely Irish Catholic student body, whereas I'm not too sure of the percentage of Sioux students at other ND.
Because many Catholics in this country (especially earlier in our history) are Irish and my guess is they chose their mascot to represent the fact that they were "fighting" the other teams. Northwestern used to be the Fighting Methodists for the same reason--it's a Methodist school.
EDIT: Sorry--a little late to the party, I guess.
How about the Blackfaces instead of the Redskins? I think everyone can agree that "Blackfaces" would be ridiculously inappropriate and racist so why is Redskins allowed to continue?
I am not PC but of all the names of sports teams out there, that one is clearly dumb. I am disappointed that the NCAA can't take a stand on how rampant corruption at USC allows them to buy players for thier football team, but can force tiny North Dakota to change its team name, when they even have the support of the local Souix tribe.
Or the spartans..Im sure sparty isn't proud to be known for their fighting skills...oh...wait.
The NCAA - saving the world from excessive celebration and Indian mascots, one mid-tier college at a time.
Is there a penalty for bringing anti-NCAA signs to games? It's stupid, since Michigan is a big player in the NCAA, but between their self-righteous crusades on Indian symbols and excessive celebration as well as basically rewarding the Freep for its unethical crucifying RR, the NCAA is Dead To Me.
And seriously, why doesn't ND have to change its name? The Fighting Irish is the most racist image in all of sports after the Washington Redskins.
It could be worse, Nancy Cantor (remember her?) changed the Syracuse nickname from 'Orangemen' to just 'Orange' since it was supposedly sexist.
This was because of George Hamilton and his uber tan. He thought they were mocking him and at least wanted a cut of the action.
However, I did laugh the first time I saw that Syracuse's girl's teams were called the "Lady Orangemen" Couldn't the girl's teams have been changed to "Orange", while the guys kept "Orangemen"?
They were the Orangewomen. Nancy didn't like that the women had to be called something different than the men's teams, which everyone identified with the university as a whole.
I apologize for my lack of Syracuse knowledge. I will say that Orangewomen doesn't exactly roll of the tongue. Many times I don't understand the need for schools to put "Lady" in front of the girl's team's. For instance the Georgia "Lady Bulldogs" Can't they just be the Bulldogs? Bulldogs come in both genders, I believe.
The gendered version of my high school mascot FTW:
THE LADY BAYMEN.
"Go transgendered persons-who-rake-clams-for-a-living!"
For a second there I thought that was a dig at my masculine masculinity.
Redskins, as others have noted, is just a flat-out racist term. No tribe ever called themselves the Redskins. The Seminoles, on the other hand, were of course a real tribe. My understanding is that at one point FSU went to the Seminole nation and asked if they could use the name (or keep it - I can't remember the chronology), and they were told that they could.
As for the difference between Fighting Irish and Fighting Sioux, there may not be one if the Sioux themselves don't mind the use of the name.
A side note that may interest only me: The word "Sioux" was not self-applied originally. It meant "snakes" and was used by rival tribes. I don't see a problem, though, if the tribe has since adopted the name itself and doesn't care if others use it too.
A second side note that may interest only me: I knew a decent amount of American Indians in college (went to Kansas) and they told me to use the term "Indian." I said "Native American" when I was on campus, though, so as to not offend white people.
I remember when the Piston dance team Automotion was searching for a name, someone suggested
in honor of Bill Davidson, but that didn't go over too well.
The nickname issue has been kicking around for a long time. The general NCAA rule is that tribal nicknames are ok as long as the tribe's governing bodies are ok with it, as they are in the cases of Florida State and Central Michigan. The Standing Rock Sioux were opposed to the name at the time that UND built a new hockey arena with the Sioux nickname and logos plastered all over it, which was one of the conditions of a big donation that funded the arena. This caused a lot of bad blood with many of the Standing Rock (among others) who took it as an in-your-face move.
I don't see the name or logo as offensive, but I agree that it should be up to the tribes.
rule all. They should be able to do whatever they want to do. What a selfish position, IMHO.
I was in Lakota nation in South Dakota in 2007. I spent a week with the Lakota people. They don't call themselves "Sioux," even though you do. They are Lakota, or Dakota, etc.
Educate yourself before you make comments like these. I asked if there was a book I could read that would adequately represent their experience with the European settlers. It was recommended I read "Bury my heart at Wounded Knee."
Have a read and see if you still feel like they're being whiny and unreasonable.
What you say about the name not being self-applied by anyone was what I thought too. I am personally only familiar with people using the name Lakota. The article references a group that does use the name Sioux, though.
I'm not doubting anything you've said about what you experienced in South Dakota, but it seems that at least two of the tribes in North Dakota do, in fact, refer to themselves as "Sioux" Maybe the Lakota/Dokota vs. Sioux is a South Dakota issue? Not sure, just wondering aloud.
I just looked it up, and some tribes under the "Sioux" umbrella (which covers a lot of groups) have rejected the name and some haven't.
The Sioux comprise three major divisions based on Siouan dialect and subculture:
* Isáŋyathi or Isáŋathi ("Knife," originating from the name of a lake in present-day Minnesota): residing in the extreme east of the Dakotas, Minnesota, and northern Iowa, and are often referred to as the Santee or Eastern Dakota.
* Iháŋktȟuŋwaŋ and Iháŋktȟuŋwaŋna ("Village-at-the-end" and "little village-at-the-end"): residing in the Minnesota River area, they are considered to be the middle Sioux, and are often referred to as the Yankton and the Yanktonai, or, collectively, as the Wičhíyena (endonym) or the Western Dakota (and have been erroneously classified as “Nakota”) .
* Thítȟuŋwaŋ or Teton (uncertain, perhaps "Dwellers on the Prairie"; this name is archaic among the natives who prefer to call themselves Lakȟóta): the westernmost Sioux, known for their hunting and warrior culture, are often referred to as the Lakota.
Looks like the origin of the term is French, not their own. It's a term applied to them by someone else. I suppose that they may have adopted it; or not.
The spelling of Sioux comes from French (as do many other Midwestern names), but it's not a French word. It's a name of indigenous origin.
OTOH, the Nez Percé and Gros Ventre tribal names are indeed French (for "Pierced Nose" and "Big Belly").
Yes, it is. Thanks for the correction.
It's still a term that was applied by outsiders, though. And one wonders why the French Canadians called them something that means "snake." And why the Americans followed suit.
Scroll down to Names.
After all, dehumanising people has been an instrumental component of war and other oppressive movements forever. They were also called savages, even though they were nothing of the sort.
It's not likely that this was done as a deliberate attempt at dehumanization. The French mainly viewed the Midwest as a region for trade, not necessarily settlement, and established good relations with most tribes. Most likely, the explorer who wrote down the name "Sioux" happened to hear it uttered by someone and did not know its meaning at the time.
I don't know much but I know Crazy Horse was a Lakotah who got shot in the face for trying to make off with Black Buffalo Woman, who happened to be some other dudes wife.
If we can't trust wikipedia, the terrorists have won.
If it was a self-applied name, I stand corrected. If not, it makes me wonder why they use it.
Maybe it is a South Dakota thing.
...has anyone mentioned the "Irish curse" yet?
For the record, I am fifty percent Irish, but I can neither confirm nor deny the existence of the curse.
in the second semester.
I can say that that this PC crap has run anok. They changed the name a decade before I came to EMU, but the result on the school has been awful There is a division among alumni that wasn't there before allbecause some liberals self anointed themselves as the conscious-of our society. They really are as bad as those right wingers who do the same in terms of sexuality.
I can understand the altering of names like Redskins or the removal of offensive portrayals of Native Americans, but the use of tribes as names is hardly meant to be offensive.
If anything, they are intended as a sign of respect for those who lived in the area before the white man. If naming of a colleges sports team after a tribe is offensive, what about towns, roads, and geographic features?
That being said I don't like the use of students dressing up as indians. It strikes me as a modern version of black face. Either have actual indians do it or don't do it at all.
Don't want to hurt anyone's feelings now, do we?
As an enrolled American Indian, it was fun to see how most of you guys feel about this. Some of you were actually quite educated about the situation. I'm glad there weren't too many of you emitting douchebaggery. I dig this blog...
like slavery and the annihilation of native americans, it's better to err on the side of caution than to please a bunch of sports fans or cater to a university's traditions
with that said, there is a fine line between what is embracing a region's history (fighting illini, sioux, etc) and bastardizing a once proud culture (miami/washington redskins, etc)
While I dont care at all about this issue, its worth noting: just because it is intended to be respectful, doesnt mean it always is respectful.
it's always worth walking a mile in somebody's else shoes, or mocassins I guess, before determining if you are really being respectful enough to anybody's needs, desires and feelings.
There are plenty of comments in this thread where such a walk has clearly been taken. And maybe a few comments where no such walk was ever really pondered.
Since I say this out of respect, I know there is no way I offended anybody in this thread. amirite?!?!
without a single mention of the (former?) Pekin, Illinois HS mascot?
and I was pissed when Hofstra changed their nickname from the Flying Dutchmen to the Pride. Sounds like a freaking WNBA team.
Was it offensive to those Dutchmen that are unable to fly?
Rik Smits that one.
As a man of German-Irish descent, I take great umbrage to Notre Dame's nickname and demand that they change it, it is offensive and derogatory to us Mics. lol
Scary Movie 3
Change it to the "Fighting Sue" and have the mascot be a woman with a rolling pin or a lawyer. Done. Easy solution.