OT: NoDak Going Back to Fighting Sioux
http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/228879/
Some interesting developments out of Grand Forks. It's a bit confusing, but it looks like a petition drive has been successful in restoring North Dakota's Fighting Sioux name. Things are about to get real interesting between the University and the NCAA.
February 8th, 2012 at 4:50 PM ^
Does that mean Illinois can bring back the Chief? He was the only interesting thing about going to a game in Champaign-Urbana.
February 8th, 2012 at 4:53 PM ^
I thought they were going to change it to Fighting Sue (Susan B. Anthony):
http://scoopgods.com/2011/08/31/university-of-north-dakota-chooses-figh…
February 8th, 2012 at 4:56 PM ^
Based on the NCAA's history as a flexible organization, this will totally end well for NoDak.
February 8th, 2012 at 6:17 PM ^
you mean flexible, as in grabbing the ankles and letting OSU have its way with them?
February 8th, 2012 at 4:57 PM ^
I'm Chippewa, and seeing caricatures of your people pretending to be "Indian" pretty much sucks. Unless the university has close ties to that particular community or contributes to it, then they should not be using them as a mascot.
February 8th, 2012 at 5:02 PM ^
Soo Band. I don't understand how America still puts up with the Redskins, Braves, and Indians. That said, I'm cool with the CMU using the Chippewa as a mascot. Go figure.
February 8th, 2012 at 5:06 PM ^
As you both no doubt understand, there are different ways of doing it. I believe that Florida State, for example, got permission from the Seminole Tribe to use the name. FSU's use of the name and imagery is also respectful and, well, pretty cool.
I live in D.C. now, and the proliferation of Redskins stuff is surreal. This is a town in which you could make people (of all political stripes) have heart attacks if you use a racial slur - except "Redskins," which is printed on jackets and hats and posters all over town. It's bizarre.
February 8th, 2012 at 5:18 PM ^
FSU researches the Seminole traditions really well. They also offer a special scholarship for FSU-bound Seminole kids. So yeah, FSU does a heck of a job making sure they represent the Seminole tribe well.
February 8th, 2012 at 5:23 PM ^
Agreed. I grew up in Florida and FSU always had a respectful relationship with the Seminole Tribe. But more than just respect, FSU actually gives monetary support to the Tribe. Furthermore, the Tribe helped design FSU's mascot's outfit. So the "Seminoles" nickname is acceptable because it is used with the blessing of, you know, actual Seminoles.
I've never heard one compelling argument as to why "Redskins" is acceptable in any way.
February 8th, 2012 at 5:46 PM ^
how did CMU get to keep the Chippewas nickname? Did they work out some sort of agreement or did the NCAA just not care?
February 8th, 2012 at 5:50 PM ^
To add onto this: even if the tribe officially maintains a good relationship with the university and gives them "permission" to continue using the name and mascot, couldn't there still be a cause of action for an individual of Chippewa descent (or individuals working together to bring a class action suit) who feel personally wronged by the depiction? I've always wondered how universities deal with things like this when all members of that group aren't of a single mind about the depiction.
February 8th, 2012 at 5:53 PM ^
CMU has an agreement with the Saginaw Chippewa Indian Tribe, which is the tribal government for three Chippewa bands.
The Saginaw Chippewa Indian Tribe and Central Michigan University have a strong historic and cooperative relationship that complements each entity's goals and encourages collaborative efforts to improve and enhance the quality of life of citizens of the region. This has fostered educational initiatives, cultural events and speakers, and extensive Native American educational resources for the campus and tribal communities. For example, leaders from CMU and the Saginaw Chippewa Tribal College signed an articulation agreement that provides easy transfer for tribal college students who wish to complete their studies toward a baccalaureate degree at CMU. In April 2002, leaders from CMU and the Tribal Council signed a proclamation pledging their support for joint educational efforts and advancing an appreciation of global indigenous peoples. This led to CMU and the tribe jointly hosting a United Nations-funded international conference on indigenous issues in higher education in fall 2003. This mutual relationship also is evident in the Saginaw Chippewa Tribal Council's continued support of Central Michigan University's "Chippewas" nickname, which the university uses as a sign of pride, honor and respect for the tribe's rich heritage.
http://go.cmich.edu/About_Us/Saginaw_Chippewa_Indian_Tribe.shtml
February 8th, 2012 at 6:01 PM ^
So the common thread in the sanctioned Native American nicknames is a harmonious relationship with the represented tribe. That doesn't seem that hard to understand.
Anyone from NoDak to give a local perspective?
February 8th, 2012 at 6:44 PM ^
I'm not local. Just to do outreach to Pine Ridge Reservation, but that is it. As far as I understand it, the university did get rights to use the name. The deal is that unlike FSU or CMU, the NCAA didn't feel they'd gotten the rights from enough tribal groups or somethng. The NCAA was never real clear on why they rejected it. A bunch of news articles though implied that North Dakota just bought the support of one tribe or something.
For example I have a friend who is a Chippewa and his tribe is against CMU using the name, but CMU has enough support nothing comes of their protests.
February 8th, 2012 at 6:52 PM ^
From what I remember, the school needed to get permission from two separate tribal groups. One agreed and one basically said "We don't vote on that sort of thing" and so by NCAA logic one "yes" vote and one abstaining party amounted to a "no".
February 9th, 2012 at 11:14 AM ^
I lived in ND for 3 years and this is correct but there was a lot of bad blood between UND and the larger of the two Sioux groups. This mostly stemmed from the booster who funded UND's hockey arena insisting on plastering the Sioux name and logo all over the arena. The Sioux group who had not agreed to the use of the name took this as a big middle finger.
February 8th, 2012 at 5:37 PM ^
I am Lakota. The worst part about the 'Fighting Sioux' is that, for the Lakota, it is the equivalent of the 'Fighting Ni**ers.' It's extremely racist.
February 8th, 2012 at 5:59 PM ^
My wife and I currently live on the Pine Ridge reservation in South Dakota. The Lakota people and tradition are amazing. We have loved the past 2 years and consider ourselves extremely lucky to have had this chance.
February 8th, 2012 at 6:04 PM ^
I have a connection to Pine Ridge that...I probably shouldn't explain to strangers on the internet. But anyway, Pine Ridge!
February 8th, 2012 at 6:01 PM ^
I was not aware that "Sioux" was a racist term--I thought it was the name of the entire ethnic group.
Would you mind explaining a little bit to we who are unaware so that we can do what we can to defuse this? Is it because the name did not come from themselves but the French?
If you don't feel like explaining, that's cool too. Just really curious because I thought I understood this issue better than I do. Thanks.
February 8th, 2012 at 6:05 PM ^
Sioux is a Chippewa word that means enemy. What is usually called "Sioux people" are actually the Lakota, Nakota, and Dakota peoples.
On a side note: Ever notice that they never called us what we call ourselves??? Chippewa was an Iroquois word. We (Chippewa or Ojibwe) called ourselves Anishnaabe... Oh well.
February 8th, 2012 at 6:17 PM ^
In fairness, it's not uncommon for ethnic groups to be called entirely different names by outsiders. Consider, for instance, the names German, Allemand, etc., for people who call themselves Deutsch.
February 8th, 2012 at 8:02 PM ^
There's a Sporcle quiz about guessing countries' names in their indigenous languages. It's pretty tough.
February 8th, 2012 at 6:31 PM ^
This is similar to Navajo, as well, which was a pueblo term picked up by the Spanish. Navajos refer to themselves as Dineh (best translation "the people.")
February 8th, 2012 at 7:38 PM ^
was intended to be respectful. I get it that some find the use of their tribes name and dress offensive. But I honestly don't believe it to be meant as an insult.
I think it should be up to the tribe to determine whether a name should be kept or abandoned. Eastern threw out the Huron moniker without so much as talking to the Huron tribe.
February 9th, 2012 at 1:06 AM ^
The Huron name is complicated as well though. It is my understanding that two of the three remaining Wyandotte (that is the proper name for Huron) had no problem with the use of the Huron name and the third really didn't care. That being said, Eastern decided to not only dump the Huron name but decided to go with probably one of the most unoriginal mascot names to replace it. After 20 years, I'm finally coming to grips with the Eagles but it's still tough since in my books Eagles ranks up with Wildcats as one of those names that get used in a movie to name the team.
February 9th, 2012 at 9:55 AM ^
Eastern's refusal to accept the Emu as its rightful mascot is just unacceptable. Well actually a lot about Eastern is unacceptable.
February 9th, 2012 at 10:54 AM ^
At least Emu would be unique.
February 9th, 2012 at 10:04 AM ^
I think this is an important point. "Redskins" is offensive. The Cleveland Indian logo makes me cringe every time. But not all usage is meant to be disrespectful. Granted, good intentions sometimes fail and fail miserably, and fans can certainly take a respectful effort and turn it into 100% asshole central. It's not my place to tell natives people whether they should be offended or not, of course. Ultimately we should defer to their wishes.
But there is this: sports team monikers sometimes feel to me like they are the last vestiges of any recognition that there were native people here before we moved in and pushed them out and then drove them (and their culture) to the brink of extinction. The average American probably can't name many of the nations of native americans--but I'll bet the ones they do know come largely from the sports page. It's something.
I for one am impressed we have so many MGoPeople with native american heritage (or other connections). I can't claim the same but grew up on the Great Plains and was taught to respect that aspect of our history.
February 8th, 2012 at 4:58 PM ^
I'm just glad that the people of N.D. get to keep the Fighting Sioux nickname given that they clearly became quite attached to it not long after believing that the fighting Sioux were sub-humans who deserved to be largley driven from their land. I simply can't resist the irony of it.
February 8th, 2012 at 7:35 PM ^
I didn't know we were ascribing the beliefs of those who lived in the past to those who live in the present.
February 8th, 2012 at 7:43 PM ^
I don't think the irony of the situation is diminished too much by the passage of time to find the situation...ironic.
It's also easy to say that the past is water under the bridge when you're the winner.
February 8th, 2012 at 7:57 PM ^
What good is it to be bitter about what happened a century ago? It is not going to change what happened. (I don't mean to insinuate that they should forget.)
The way I see it Natives have a chance to use these nicknames as a way of telling their own story, to put what happened in their words to current and future generations of Americans. They can in some small way achieve a measure of revenge by keeping alive the memory and traditions of their ancestors, thus preventing the complete annihiliation of their culture.
Anyways, that is one white man's opinion. As someone who has read quite a bit about genocide I find that besides the act itself, the worse thing we can do is to forget what happened. I think the Natives have an opportunity to keep themselves in the public eye by the use of their tribes name on something with a significant profile like an athletic team.
February 9th, 2012 at 8:27 AM ^
That looks good on paper, but I have learned more in this thread about several of the Tribes than I ever did following these teams mentioned above. What do you really learn about the Lakota by watching the North Dakota hockey team? What do you learn about the Chippewas by watching a CMU game? Hell I went to games up there for 4 straight years while a family member played there and I never knew that Chippewa wasn't even a name they gave themselves.
Could the NCAA require a certain amount of public service type commercials during the game that feature history lessons about the tribes? At least one pregame feature about some aspect of Native American history?
If its fine with the Tribes, its fine with me, but it is a little disingenuous to say that we, in some way, "know" more about these people because their likeness is on a Hockey sweater or a football helmet. JMO of course.
February 9th, 2012 at 10:07 AM ^
You're absolutely right about that. So it's a thin straw to grasp, but I like the that people actually are reminded that yes, there were once Chippewas who lived here. Of course there are still a million miles to go on knowing anything more about a people's history & culture.
February 9th, 2012 at 11:08 AM ^
First, American Indians do not have any control at all with the way the "Redskin" image is used. There are counterexamples, of course, like Florida State, but I don't hear anyone saying that FSU should changed its mascot.
Second, the idea that a sports team is a good way to make sure that we don't foget a genocide is, while well-meaning (I assume), bizarre. Should Germany have a soccer team called the "Fighting Jews"? People would obviously be horrified by that - and rightly so.
Three, it's easy to say that people shouldn't be bitter when you're not still suffering as a very direct result of the past. Many of the people whom we call the "Sioux" still are.
February 8th, 2012 at 7:56 PM ^
hold on there SalvatoreQuattro, a second ago you said that you don't believe the native names are meant as an insult. How is that you can know so surely, yet expect proof from someone else?
February 8th, 2012 at 5:03 PM ^
As far as un-PC mascots go, the Sioux logo isn't too bad although I can understand why people don't like it. The ones that totally boggle my mind are the Washington Redskins. (Repeat: Red. Skins.) and the Cleveland Indians logo. How have we not banished those?
Seriously. How is this still allowed?
February 8th, 2012 at 5:27 PM ^
That logo is the reason my kids wear the Indians Block C baseball caps. I refuse to buy any item with Chief Wahoo on it.
February 8th, 2012 at 5:31 PM ^
Just another sign of progress in Northeast Ohio. The logo has all the momentum in the world behind it and no one outside of Cleveland can be bothered to protest it too much.
February 8th, 2012 at 5:11 PM ^
February 8th, 2012 at 5:13 PM ^
The history of the Irish in the U.S. is much rosier than is the history of American Indians post-Columbus. The Irish are much better integrated (seems laughable to even write it) into American society, for example.
February 8th, 2012 at 5:30 PM ^
But for a good century or so the Irish were, to put it mildly, not very well respected.
February 8th, 2012 at 5:37 PM ^
No 19th Century Politics, but most people draw a distinction between "some employment discrimination" and "wholesale slaughter and forced relocation"
February 8th, 2012 at 5:40 PM ^
I guess I won't tell you what I think of the Greenback movement...
February 8th, 2012 at 6:53 PM ^
I Know Nothing.
February 8th, 2012 at 7:59 PM ^
for centuries. You ought to pick up a history book sometime.
February 8th, 2012 at 8:03 PM ^
"I thought this was America!?!?"
That's actually a good comparison, though. If they changed Manchester United to The Manchester Fighting Irish, THAT would be offensive.
February 8th, 2012 at 8:25 PM ^
of the Indians. What happened "over there" does have some impact here as it is part of the cultural memory of the Irish. Oh and the Irish suffered far more than just "employment discrimination". To treat it so casually is flat out insulting.
February 8th, 2012 at 8:49 PM ^
is that it happened OVER THERE. Most people would agree that having your (former?) oppressors appropriate your name, symbols, and culture for its own purposes is way worse than having someone else refer to your group. The Vandals took a bunch of shit from the Romans, but you don't see people complaining about that name, because we aren't the Romans.
Besides, you'd be hard-pressed to say that what the Irish experienced in America was ANYTHING like what the Native Americans experienced, and there is no notable disadvantage to being Irish-American in America. Even after 400 years of taking shit, Native Americans STILL face huge challenges in this country. Being of Irish decent in this country stopped being a challenge a long time ago.