there are no words
OT: Miguel man, Miguel
Yes. I'm 27. But I'm sure most 40+ year olds will agree...
Best I've seen in terms of power, contact, and year-after-year consistency. I've seen others have stretches of time like this, maybe even a couple seasons, but this guy has done this since he was 19 fercrissakes and is showing no signs of slowing down.
You mean other than Bonds right?
Ba-roid doesn't belong in this conversation.
He does unless you want to put your head in the sand. Bonds was an incredible hitter back when he was a skinny kid with nary a drug in him. Moreover, no one will ever convince me that the drugs helped him with hand eye coordination and his ability to draw (unintentional) walks. I also doubt that it helped with his incredible bat speed.
I'm not particularly a Bond fan (I never liked his personality) and I certainly don't like the use of steroids. However, if you want to be honest you can't ignore Bonds' incredible talent and success before drugs and the fact that the drugs don't explain everything after. The use of steroids in baseball is a plague and I don't mind them cracking down, but the cheating quotiant as it applies to that sport is (I think) a lot less than in pure endurance sports like bike racing.
Miggy is amazing, btw. I just don't care for the moralizing about Bonds anymore than I have the moralizing about Pete Rose.
I mean, if they don't help you be a better hitter, then why take the risk?
Seriously, if there is no benefit for hitters taking steroids, why would they?
Stereoids improve your strength. If you can crank more home runs, as juiced-up Bonds did, then arguably that has made you a better hitter. But there are more kinds of hits than just home runs. Bonds was a great hitter before stereoids because he could consistently get singles and get on base. And the difference between line drives and home runs is more about power than it is about hand-eye coordination. The stereoids gave him that power, but the hand-eye coordination needed to be a great hitter is something he always had. Juicing might help your bat speed, but it's not going to help your reflexes.
And a lot of Barry's HR's that weren't hit on the screws but still went out because of his roided up strength very well could have been just long fly ball outs if he wasn't juicing. It's impossible to say exactly what kind of numbers he would have put up if he were clean, but I'll take Miggy any day. Last I checked, Bonds never got the triple crown.
Not just hitters. The main reason why some players used them were to recover faster from injuries or other wear and tear. That was the excuse Any Pettite and other people have used.
I think his point was Cabrera's "combination" of average and power. Bonds didn't have that combination until he began taking steroids. Prior to that, yes, he was a very good hitter - for average. He had no power, though.
As early as 1990 he was already hitting 33 bombs. Hardly "No power" Heck he hit 16 as a rookie. The guy was an MVP in pittsburgh lets remember.
Wow. I didn't remember him having those types of numbers early in his career. +1 Informative to you, sir.
I really think it makes it all the more tragic that he resorted to steroids and HGH. Given the natural power growth that players experience as they reach their early thirties, he could have been remembered as a great (non-steroid) player that was an asshole. Instead, he'll be remembered as a steroid and HGH fueled freak of his former self that was an asshole.
Yes, it was a tragedy. That was the only point I was trying to make. Bonds would have been quite amazing without the drugs. I agree he'd have had fewer HRs and possibly a lower average, but overall he had no reason to bulk up. Of course, the tragedy was created by Bonds himself and he is responsible for it.
Bonds was a terrific player. Objectively, one thing he had all over Miggy (and everyone else) is the best eye at the plate I've ever seen. He had plenty of power pre-roids as well. But, again objectively, Miggy is well ahead of him at age 30 when it comes to driving in runs and making solid contact at the plate (cross ref BA and RBI numbers. His BA is similar to what I remember from Carew, Brett et al who were terrific line drive hitters). Even in Barry's record setting HR year, he drove in 137 (I think...somewhere around that. Regardless, with 73 homers, you'd think it'd be higher). Subjectively, I can't get around the steroids question. Obviously, they blew up his power numbers (from 35-ish a year to 70) and they probably helped him with nagging injuries. Miggy is playing on one leg and a strained abdomen and still ungodly. Would Barry have been able to be as consistent over time without a little helper? So, I'll stand by my original thought that Miggy is the best I've seen as the total package over a long period of time.
of the last 3 years+ of his career with a bad knee, still put up great numbers.
As far as I'm concerned Barry and Miggy are the best hitters I've seen in this game. Really the only thing Barry had over Miggy was speed. Barry was a 40-40 guy, Miggy will never get that.
Albert Pujols in St Louis is competitive, but his recent drop might slightly take him out of the conversation.
Without a doubt
I'm 22 and he's the best I have ever seen and I'm a white sox fan so he's painful to watch play.
Boggs, Gwynn - avid baseball fan from the late 70s to the present...Yeah, Cabrera is that good.
I Have loved the Tigers since before I can remember and I have always been jealous of teams that have one of those guys, and now we have one. As Ira says on WTKA, Tigers fans, enjoy as much of this as you can because it's a once in a lifetime thing.
He is unreal
There were words, because I have no clue what this means.
Miguel Cabrera hit a huge walkoff HR for the Tigers tonight
congrats. I love the tigers but don't follow much closely. I get to hear about the Padres. yay me, right?
to pitch out of the strike zone but he doesn't care. So effortless at times.
Ugh I turned the game off to watch the UFC. AT least they won. As said before it was stupid how Leyland and catcher were thrown out. Stupid umps don't know shit
I am to the point where I expect it and end up surprised and disappointed when it doesn't happen. It almost seems like he can hit a HR whenever he needs to.
Why do they pitch to him?
I know I wouldn't. I hope managers continue to play it by the book and say that they can't walk the tying or winning run.
is he human? He's on pace to win the tipple crown back to back
he have to be leading in all three categories to be on pace to win the triple crown back-to-back?
unless the "tipple" crown is something different that he won last year and that he is currently on pace to win again this year...
I won the tipple crown years ago, son. It's retired now.
The nipple crown, okay?
He sucks. Trade him.
wanted Dombrowski to trade Miggy after he was charged with DUI or domestic violence a few years ago. Glad that the fans aren't the GM and Dombrowski's cool head prevailed.
our less-morally-deplorable ray lewis? winning solves everything they say...
Murder and DUI are totally different
also miggy has stayed clean. and those victory 'champagne' parties in the locker room? all non-alcoholic.
dude had a problem, and worked hard to get it fixed. give him a break.
not a very good comparison in any way.
This thread got me thinking about wins above replacement. That is a very flawed statistic with far too much weight on stolen bases. I love station to station baseball but c'mon, when 3 guys are ahead of Miguel it's broke. Trout, McCutcheon and that other kid are all fine players but every walk off hit should be worth one win on WAR or it doesn't make sense.
If every walk off hit was worth one win on WAR, there would a lot more than just 3 guys ahead of Miguel in WAR.
But yes, it does seem as though WAR underappreciates how important hitting is to baseball. It is a stat that kind of overreacted to the idea that people ignore the other aspects of the game (fielding, base-running, etc.), and then went and overvalued those other aspects.
on hitting but Miggy defense is way below average and is not a good base runner which really hurt his WAR value. One of the reason why Mike Trout is so good is he saves run and steals a ton of bases plus get more extra bases because of his speed.
With that being said, Miggy still leads over Trout in WAR which speak of his hitting ability this season.
That being said, I don't know that WAR even itself attempts to be the single stat to determine who is the best/better(in head-to-head comparison) player. I just think, in my humbly biased opinion, that if you are trying to come up with a single stat to determine best player, you better calibrate it so that the best player is Miggy, cuz he da best.
Trout's WAR for defense this year is actually -0.8, while his offensive WAR is 8.2 with an overall of 7.3. Miggy's WAR for defense is -1.0, while his offensive WAR is 8.0 with an overall of 6.7. Surprisingly, Trout's defense this year has little or nothing to do with his WAR advantage over Cabrera. If you look closely at the stats for both players, Trout has the advantage in doubles (33 to 24), triples (8 to 1), stolen bases (28 to 3) and walks (77 to 71). Cabrera has the lead in homeruns (39 to 21), RBI (117 to 77), batting average (.358 to .330), on base (.450 to .429), slugging (.683 to .571), and on base + slugging (1.133 to 1.000). A closer look shows what an amazing offensive season Trout is having. Cabrera clearly has the better power statistics and Trout clearly has the better speed statistics. What WAR doesn't take in to consideration is the "timeliness" of Cabrera's performance. How many times has a Cabrera hit or homerun tied or won a game for the Tigers in the 7th inning or later? I am not sure how many times but it seems like at least 5 or 6 in the last 2 to 3 weeks. I am not sure how many times Trout has come through in the clutch since I don't watch the Angels play every day but you would think probably not nearly as often as Miggy, hence the 13 games below .500 record the Angels carry. Miggy is the MVP this year, followed by Chris Davis and Mike Trout.
This is my issue with WAR:
What weight are these categories given? To me, triples aren't that valuable, especially in relation to doubles. What does a triple get you? A chance to score on a flyball if there are less than two outs and if the flyball is deep enough. Sacrifice flys are not really that common of an occurance.
And where was runs in your breakdown? Doesn't Miguel have more runs than Trout?
Regardless, I don't care for the Trout/Cabrera debate. Both are having great years. But WAR is a stupid, fake statistic that I can't believe has become such an accepted metric.
Who in the league has more RBI than Cabrera? More runs = more wins.
Is WAR calibrated so the total for that team actually equals their win total? Could Trout et al stats somehow produce more (or less) WAR than the Angel's actual record? That would make it useless as well.
because they're two different things. Win-Loss record isn't a stats because it's a team performance, not individual performance. They take account into quality of competition, ballpark factor, etc. and just compare it to the average MLB player. That's what WAR essentially is how much win a player is worth compared to the average player.
their players, totaled up, likely have negative WAR, right?
as in, their team would be better if they were all replaced with hypothetically average players.
But could WAR be used to predict how that team, the all-average team, would do in 162 games? Should they not be 81-81?
The RBI alone 117-77 makes it clear how WAR is a very, very silly stat. Cabrera is by far the MVP.
which is why it's weighted less in WAR calculations. Trout is a leadoff hitter and has worse hitters in front of him which means fewer opportunities for him to drive in runs as opposed to Miggy as a #3 hitter where he has AJax and Torii are on base a lot which gives him more opportunities to drive in runs. If Miggy had two below average leadoff hitter and 2 hole hitter, his RBI total would be down simply because he has worse hitters hitting in front of him which means he has fewer opportunities to drive in runs.
It's apples to oranges because RBI is a team stats, not individual stats.
He is a special player to watch. I have lived in Michigan my whole life but I am only a casual baseball fan. My girlfriend is a huge Tigers fan so I have watched more Tigers games in the last two years then the rest of my life combined. I know Tigers fans are worried about wining the division etc, but just take a step back and appreciate how amazing Miggy is playing right now.
But remember kids: Trout is still the better player and MVP according to ESPN WAR. (By a whole game, no less!)
Nevermind the fact that Trout has somehow gained nearly 2 whole wins in the last month or so to overtake Cabrera (Apparently Miggy's hitting streak isn't as impressive as we all thought..)
Was at the ballpark tonight, even before he stepped up to the plate the whole park was standing, it almost felt like a walk off was a certainty. Honestly why even give him anything to hit, especially a belt high heater down in the count 3-1.
regardless, the guy's a once-in-a-lifetime phenom for Tigers fans.
Know where to find Dan Dickerson's call? Miggy is the man, he is UNBELIEVABLE!
Search 'Clinton verley soundcloud' or 'Dan dickersons best soundcloud' and u might find it
Got up this morning and saw this (was at a concert last night, no not Kenny Chesny). I'm not even surprised anymore. The fact he's hobbling around on one leg just makes it more amazing.
Eat it Chen
Aaaaand he just did it again. Wow.
apart from any other hitter I've seen is the number and location of pitches off the plate that he hits for home runs.
He has 3 different strides at the plate and can hit the long ball with all 3, I can't think of anyone like that.
WHY ARE YOU PITCHING TO THIS GUY?!?! With an open base no less.
Oh well, we'll take it.
Watching Cabrera is so fun because he almost redefines expectation vs. reality in baseball. You watch this game enough and you get used to someone getting a hit 28% of the time and accept that as being average to slightly above average. Then a guy comes along and gets a hit 36% of the time, which is significantly different than what's been engrained in us as being "right." It seems like that can't possibly be right, it just doesn't fit. Then you watch him hit a walk-off HR last night to right and then take the first pitch he sees today deep to left and realize that this guy is just special. His ability to pull the ball to either field is amazing, as is his ability to hit inside and outside the plate.
since many have mentioned Baroid lets stack his career next to Miggys to this point
86-223 03-268 Miggy by 45
87-261 04-294 Miggy by 33
88-283 05-323 Miggy by 40
89-248 06-339 Miggy by 91
90-301 07-320 Miggy by 19
91-292 08-292 push
92-311 09-324 Miggy by 13
93--336 10-328 Bonds by 8
94-312 11-344 Miggy by 32
95-294 12-330 Miggy by 36
96-308 13-360 Miggy by 52
It's not as close as people would lead you to believe. Add that Barry pre steroids was worse than ARod in the playoffs and it only separates further. Since Miggy was hitting bombs in the World Series his rookie year.