OT: Michigan HS Sports - Why do Public Schools & Private Schools compete in the playoffs
I grew up on the east coast but have lived in Michigan for about a decade now. One thing I can't figure out about Michigan HS sports is why there aren't separate playoffs for public and private schools. I take this into context as I was recently at some HS lacrosse events noticing that 6 of the top 10 ranked D1 teams and three of the final four D1 teams are private schools which have the ability to recruit while public schools are obviously stuck to their boundaries. In the two states I grew up in, public and private schools MIGHT (if they chose) play a non-conference regular season game against each other but once they got the playoffs, there were separate tournaments for public and private and two state champions were crowned.
I also saw this article about similar problems being considered in Kansas http://www.kansas.com/2010/04/18/1273988_public-private-dilemma-a-common.html . Looks like 12 states have separate associations for private and public schools and another four have some kind of equation that makes private schools play at a higher classification than what their enrollment would indicate. Interesting thoughts all.
I know for people in MI who have grown up with this system, it seems normal, but when you look at the MHSAA website and see that private schools take up a disproportionate number of team championship and runner-up spots, it surprises me that this issue never seems to be raised in the papers or by public school athletic directors or parents. Anyone have any thoughts on this.
possibly not enough private schools to fill any classes? in west michigan there's only so many that are large HS size. i'd guess they probably can't afford to go to detroit to play all their conference games and it's nicer to have in-town rivals
Which is why I would say it makes sense to be like NJ where the playoffs are separate so then the large private schools out west would play a regional and the winners would have to come out to play the Brother Rice, Catholic Central and Orchard Lake St. Mary's of the east side. That said, don't stop regular season games from happening.
goes both ways. Most private schools (at least in West Michigan) don't recruit per se. The kids in those schools usually have been going there since kindergarten.
One year, a basketball center for Unity Christian was marked by a public school opponent in the playoffs as a "kid they recruited." He was a friend of my brother's and had been in that school system since he was 7, when his family had moved from out of town. Ha!
Public schools also recruit. It's called School of Choice.
Shane Battier was a local Birmingham talent that happened to attend Country Day.
Again, not really familiar with the west side situation. Tell you a funny story. Have a friend whose kids start HS next year. His son is a monster and really tough in his town league football team. May play varsity in HS as a freshman. Anyway, has an Irish last name because his father is Irish, mom is Jewish and the kid is raised jewish. All three of the big local Catholic HS football programs, none of which are in their town, sent their coaches over to persuade the parents to send him their way. Mind you the parents made it clear that would be a little odd all things considered. Regardless, THAT'S recruiting and doesn't quite jive with School of Choice-type recruiting. Also, many schools AREN'T schools of choice, and some are only "Of Choice" within their own city. Out here on the east side, not quite same.
You're right. Being from MI, I never really thought about it. I would say, however, that the argument could be made that only a small amount of private schools "recruit." And, more importantly, of those handful of schools, they really only "recruit" a couple sports (football, basketball and perhaps baseball?). So to classify all private schools into a separate league, would put a majority of private schools at a severe disadvantage (especially in the "major" sports).
In regards to lacrosse specifically, perhaps the scales are evened when you look at the number of unified (Bloomfield, Birmingham...etc) teams.
I'd also guess (without doing any research) that the amount of private schools competing athletically is much smaller in MI as opposed to the east coast.
if three of the final four D1 teams are private (Brother Rice, Novi C.C. & UD Jesuit)
Further, two of the four D2 teams are private (Warren DeLaSalle and Pontiac Notre Dame Prep)
Further, its not a DISADVANTAGE to make them play separate playoffs. It just pits teams in like circumstances against each other and you award two championships, a private school champ and public school champ. As it stands it appears they already play in separate leagues. I don't know of many if any leagues that incorporate both private and public schools although my knowledge isn't that extensive.
So the private schools have such an advantage because they have 5 of the 8 semifinal spots in the 2 divisions? Not exactly dominating.
it's a new sport, I bet over the next 5 years this ends up being about 50-50 most years.
When you consider that there are way more public schools than private schools in the state, for privates to take over five of the eight semifinal spots is pretty dominating.
Yes, but most public schools don't have lax teams yet, and many of the ones that do are very new. Remember, lax is a very expensive sport. Once a lot of the public schools start playing lax for a few more years, this will even itself out.
And the public schools that have been playing for a little bit, EGR, the FH schools, the Birmingham and Bloomfield schools, all fare just as well as the private schools, save Brother Rice.
EDIT: After looking at the brackets, UD Jesuit beat Holt by one goal, so it was very close to being 4 publics and 4 private schools. Also, EGR beat Country Day 17-0 in the playoffs, so let's not make it seem like there's such a divide.
It is starting in Michigan with hockey. Over the past couple of years, there has been much hand wringing about "recruiting" and whatnot. There are some very high-profile public school coaches advocating a split. I don't know if it's good for the sport, but there seems to be a divide coming in hockey at least.
Won't happen with hockey while Weidenbach has as much pull as he still does.
Weidenbach does have a lot of influence in the hs hockey world, but there are a lot of teams on the "separation of public and private" bandwagon. One of the biggest showcases, the Trenton Showcase, already has some competition with a public school showcase the same weekend. They used to be the only show in town, but I think it may be gaining steam. It won't happen overnight, but I think there are enough coaches and AD's that could pressure MHSAA into making it happen.
I don't necessarily think it is a good thing or a bad thing, but I wouldn't be surprised to see it happen here.
If that's the case, that's pretty weak on the part of the public schools that are pushing for that. We always competed on even terms with the private schools (in fact, my last H.S. win came against one of the traditional private school powers). I suppose I understand why the public coaches would push for this (I don't like it, but I understand), but at the end of the day a split would cheapen the playoff experience. It would cheapen it for everyone, but more so the public schools because they'll always be viewed as inferior under that type of split system. The other thing that they aren't taking into account, probably, is that if the private schools split off they probably won't be held to the same limited number of games restriction, which would draw even more kids away from the public side of the equation. Thanks for the info though, I can't keep up with high school hockey much from where I am.
The concern about the private schools leaving the MHSAA (at least in the Detroit area where there are more of them per square mile) is a distinct possibility. They could all go register AAA-like hockey and form a league unto themselves. That would remove game limits (24 in hs, compared to 50+ in travel hockey). That will only weaken hs hockey, which has made some real strides in the last 5-10 years in terms of quality of play and skill.
I can see both sides, but it will be interesting to see how it turns out. Trenton doesn't seem to have any problem with private schools in D2, but it seems Detroit CC or OL St. Mary's win in D1 every year and Cranbrook seems to take D3 every year.
I agree, it could only weaken HS hockey.
The trend with CC and Cranbrook is recent though (i.e. since the beginning of the 2000s, although CK pretty much dominated the 80s in B-C-D) and, I think, has more to do with the change from two classes to three. It pushed some of the most competive teams in the former Class A into Division 2 (e.g. Mona Shores, Trenton, Grosse Pointe North, etc.) which made them instantly big fish in a small pond and some competitive teams in Class B-C-D into Division 2 which instantly put those teams at a disadvantage. I don't know who made that decision (it was after my H.S. days were over), but that was a bad move.
It is totally based on geography. The two strong Livonia schools (Stevenson and Churchill) are in the same pre-region and play each other either the first or second game of the playoffs. Most years, these two teams are in the top 10 in D1. How is it fair to have a top 10 team eliminated on the first day. While other teams get three cupcakes on their way to the State Quarterfinals. If you spread the talent out a little, it may help the strong public schools in all divisions keep pace with the strong private schools. Just a thought.
The main complaint is that public schools are forced to create teams from kids that only live in that district. Private schools, on the other hand, have a much larger pool to draw from and therefore are at a competitive advantage. The two are not equal in that regard and should be separate when it comes to playoffs.
Like I said, I see both sides of the argument and am very interested to see how it goes. I know Massachusetts separates the two, but I believe they play a type of and-1 game at the end to determine a champ. Similar to Chicago basketball, I believe.
Yeah, I know what you're saying. Our region was the same way. The two best teams always played in the pre-regional. It's been that way since the pre-regional structure was implemented in 1997 (I think). I am pretty sure the entire purpose of it was to eliminate the number of teams from one district that can advance into the regional, which is totally B.S.
Personally I like the way that Pennsylvania does it for hockey. Some of the private schools don't participate in the state tournament, but others do. I'm not exactly sure how they make the determination, though.
Speaking as a kid who grew up in West Michigan, the private schools on the west side are very different than the typical connotation of private school. The vast majority of private schools in the West Michigan area are religiously-based private schools who do not recruit. As a former grad of one of these schools it annoys me when people claim recruiting simply because a school like my alma mater Unity Christian has won 8 of the last 10 state combined state titles. The kids on the west side have been in these school systems since they were kids. I have never heard any concrete evidence of the private schools on the west side of the state recruiting.
In regard to the east side of the state, I have no direct knowledge to alleged recruiting, but I will say the structure of the private schools are much more academically based IMO. In regards to athletics, I believe it would be unfair (again, speaking as someone from the Grand Rapids area) to split off schools into a private division simply because their parents have decided to pay money to give kids a Christian education.
I remember this last year Catholic Central was facing public schools, it just doesn't seem fair to the public schools.
Muskegon (public) has played some of the top teams in the CHSL (CC's league) over the past 8 years and has won every one of them, including:
Birmingham Brother Rice (x2)
Warren DeLaSalle (x2)
Orchard Lake St. Marys (x1)
CC was good this past year, BUT the previous five Divison 1 Champions were all public.
My only problem is that a lot of private schools "play bigger" than their actual school size and a lot of public schools "play smaller." There are certain demographics that just don't participate in athletics (i.e. kids that have to work to help their families, etc.) which usually coincide with public schools not private schools.
I don't necessarily agree with bumping each private school up a whole classification, but maybe you could come up with a fair number that represents higher average athletics participation and add it to the school's enrollment for classification purposes.
I agree with that idea. Currently, some of the private schools do play up divisions (most of the Catholic schools), and others (namely Country Day) choose to stay in D3 for most sports.
Contrary to popular belief, private schools can't recruit players. You may be able to ask a kid to attend your school, but athletic scholarships are expressly forbidden by the MHSAA (I'm not sure what other states' rules are).
This issue popped up when two 6'10 basketball players transferred from Brother Rice, down the street to Country Day and were given a "debate" academic scholarship. The players were ruled ineligible and Country Day briefly refused to play Brother Rice in any sport.
The one benefit that private schools do have is that anyone can attend them regardless of zip code. Brother Rice, although Catholic, does have many non-Catholic and even non-Christian students, just like Catholic colleges do. The drawback is that players need to pay tuition, and the line gets hazy when schools give academic scholarship help or tuition assistance that is available to all students, regardless of athletic ability.
Also, keep in mind that many kids have their parents relocate themselves to be in a school district of a public school powerhouse. This has happenened at schools such as Farmington Hills Harrison (Drew Stanton's alma mater) in Michigan, as well as Glenville High School in Cleveland, Ohio.
Lastly, some schools in Michigan resisted participating in the MHSAA for lacrosse because of travel rules. The MHSAA has somewhat strict travel guidelines that dictate how far out of state you can travel for games. So, a group of private schools may have the motivation to join together in their own conference outside of the MHSAA, play their own championship, and still have the ability to travel cross country to play East Coast competition. You could also potentially see this happen in basketball if schools were more concerned with the ability to play Oak Hill (Va.) on ESPN as opposed to competing for a state championship.
There really aren't that many private schools in Michigan. GR Christian might be the only Class A private school outside of Metro Detroit, and even most of the private schools in MD aren't really big.
I can see how private schools in sports like lacrosse would have an advantage, but in most sports the private schools don't actually do better than the private schools. There are particular private schools who have had a lot of luck in particular sports, but there are just as many (or likely more) public schools who do just as well. Until it becomes a problem in multiple sports, I doubt there will be a change.
The simple answer is because it's not really necessary for them to compete in separate playoffs in Michigan. Just because lacrosse is dominated by private schools, it doesn't mean that private schools dominate the rest of the sports landscape in the state, which is what you would expect if there really were a true advantage for the private schools. The reality is that there are really only a handful of private schools in the state that really and truly dominate consistently (i.e. DCC, CK, Holland Christian and a few others), but as others have said, the enrollment at that those schools is more local than is typical of private schools elsewhere. The real advantage with private schools arises when they have boarding students, which really allows them to draw from all over the place, but very few of the Michigan schools have boarding capacity. Also, as already mentioned, there are no athletic scholarships allowed, which really differentiates the Michigan private schools from the east coast and mid-Atlantic private schools. Also, Michigan is not unique in allow for private school participation along with public schools in the playoffs. Pennsylvania allows it as well, although there is a separate system there that some of the private schools participate in.
Because the public schools need to be taught that life isn't fair.
I don't think it is really that big of a deal. I feel that a lot of private schools are religion based and don't recruit. I know there are some that do but i feel those are mostly around the Detroit area where there are a lot of talented kids with many surrounding schools so they have more choices. I was involved in sports my whole life and played a lot of private schools. Being from Traverse City most of the private schools we played were from the southern part of the state. I never thought they were really better, they just looked much better because they had money and sweet fuckin uniforms. Not mention they knew how to host a tournament. Incredible amounts of food that was really good. The biggest difference i actually noticed wasn't talent, but size. I swear the southern half gives their kids steroids. I was always intimidated. But my schools hockey team won states in 2006 and we usually could hold are own against private schools. I like the idea of both schools competing. I know i was always pumped when we beat a private school.
Why are people seemingly getting the idea that a religion-based school wouldn't recruit? There are some pretty obvious cases to the contrary. (In any event, it's generally not the school itself, per se, that does the dirty work of recruiting, but rich donors.)
I guess that didn't really come like i meant it to. Just from my personal experience in athletics, a lot of private schools i played against didn't recruit and most of them were religious. I understand that they definitely do, i have just always felt that it was a more common occurrence in the detroit area. I could be completely wrong.
Detroit Catholic Central is the only private school worth a damn most years and even they have only won one state championship in the past two decades.
Brother Rice owns CC in pretty much every sport.
from a wrestling perspective in my title. My point was that in my sport, private schools almost never beat public schools.
Football and hockey are two big sports that come to mind. Also the aformentioned wrestling and T&F most years (including this year).
Most private schools compete pretty well with the public.
coming from a class c high school in michigan that was actually pretty decent in sports ... we often had our season ended by the area private school, saginaw nouvel (catholic central)
while they didn"t "recruit" .... their academic situation allows them to get athletes from about an hour radius ... we lost 2 studs to them post 8th grade last yr
they have significant money advantages that we really cant match...
while public schools can have short periods of greatness from one or two studs (see Bath basketball in '06/07) the success cant be sustained
just look at the great small school programs ... gr/kzoo catholic schools, traverse city st francis, and nouvel
its just the way it is, it kinda sucks
I went to high school in Michigan, but my family now lives in New Jersey, so I have somewhat an interesting perspective.
First of all, public schools and private schools should definitely have separate divisions. That is something that New Jersey does right (about the only thing they do right). Brother Rice, Catholic Central, De La Salle, Country Day, etc all have a competitive advantage over public schools. Even if they don't recruit, the ability for an elite group of AAU/Pop Warner/Fed Baseball players to decide to attend the same school is possible with private schools. Public schools don't necessarily have this option because not every school elects into the school of choice program. My high school (public school) had plenty of state championships within reach if it wasn't for private schools (mainly Brother Rice and Catholic Central). So yes, some sour grapes here.
With that said, the New Jersey high school sports system is terrible. For example, 20 state champions in high school football?! In a state of roughly 9 million, where it takes 3 hours to drive all the way across the state, having 20 champions - even with the segregation of public and private schools - is ridiculous and gives no true champion.
Michigan, while the MHSAA has tons of flaws, does it right with the amount of divisions. Eight high school football champions, in a state of 10 million and where it takes 12 hours to drive across the state, makes much more sense.
Public schools in Michigan often present opportinities to an athlete such as visibililty to colleges, chances at winning a state title, etc. There has to be some kind of change of residence however. Private schools can do this without a change of residence. I hear stories where football oaches will drive up to 2 hours a day to go pick up a kid just so he can attend their school.
I couldnt agree more with the idea that they should compete in seperate divisions. My sister is a hell of a tennis player and she plays for a really small school on the west side of the state. We have no business being good at a (forgive me when I say this) more upper class, wealthy sport such as tennis, especially since the only indoor tennis facility to use during the winter is 30 mins away. Although my sister actually won the whole tournament at her flight 2 times, her team as a whole would always finish 2nd or 3rd to private schools in each of her 4 years. These schools did recruit the best players from across the state and they really didnt care who knew it. It just doesnt seem to fair to our team who has developed one of the top programs in the state by using their own players and developing them into good tennis players.
Maybe not the case in all sports but definately in tennis. Also, there are more private schools than you think. K christian, Hackett, GR Christian, TC St. Francis, couple in Muskegon, Midland/Bay City area?, metro Detroit
I'm sorry, but the best tennis teams on the west side of the state are almost all public schools. The Forest Hills schools, Portages, EGR, St. Joseph, Rockford, West Ottawa, etc. There are a few good private schools, but don't throw this one on public vs. private.
Yep, exactly. I would say that the poster you are responding to is an outlier situation. My guess is that he/she is talking about one of the smaller school classes.
Texas is another state that separates the private schools (TAPPS) and public schools (UIL). Public schools are limited to geographic footprints only. The only way you get around that is having a parent working at a school in another district or certain magnet schools. Bellaire, a top 10 baseball school nationally, used to have a foreign language magnet that took any Houston ISD students taking an unusual foreign language like Russian or Arabic. From what I've heard, those programs have been eliminated for cost concerns (and the coincidence that the Russian 1 class appeared to be a "co-requisite" for baseball).
Then you have things like the two MLB prospects from Maryland moving to the same block in Fort Bend school district (suburbs of Houston, Elkins is also a national baseball power) in time for their kids to play for the same team and finish in the top 25 nationally.
So there is some potential recruitment in public schools, much of it can be twisted into something coincidental or with other motives (see: Devin Gardner), private schools like Strake Jesuit, a very big player in TAPPS athletic events, can DEFINITELY recruit kids into their system. There was a kid in my high school that went to private school after coaches there convinced him to go there. It was clearly recruitment from the beginning.