First, I'll say that Phoenix lost this series and possibly their current location with a lot of pride and respect for their fans and the game in general.
But it never hurts to poke fun:
SEE BELOW EMBED
Having lived in the Valley of the Sun for two years I say good riddance!!!
You wouldn't know my job is a web editor, would you?
Lol they were the only team to be swept in the first round
Not only that but Z sat out the series and Franzen missed the last game! Rest for us is not what the rest of the league wants right now.
but not too much rest. Amiright?
at packard pub ... back to winnipeg where they belong
I'm sure that you sounded totally awesome doing it too.
Phone: Hey Phoenix, its Winnipeg. They said they want their team back!
Also; YOU SUCK!
Wow, they are awful. Hilarious to see all the Wing fans COMPLETELY TAKEOVER the white elephant arena of theirs.
From the puke-aztec jerseys to the Reinsdorf shenanigans to Balsile to Goldwater...well done Bettman.
Mwahaha. I love destroying franchises.
I've lived in AZ for 5 years now and attended multiple Coyotes games. If they leave it will be a tragedy because the Coyotes organization has one of the most entertaining hockey experiences i've had the pleasure of attending. The ability to go show up early and enjoy the area surrounding the arena, to the show they put on inside during the game is just so much fun.
I've been to a dozen Wings game's and it's a different experience then in Glendale. When you go to a Wings game, its more of a traditional, all star like atmosphere, but sadly not much going on around the Joe (Insert sad face). In Glendale, they put in so much effort to make hockey work. Sadly there's just not as many people who grow up with hockey as their favorite sport out here.
In my opinion, it's all positioning and that the Coyotes will remain in Phoenix. The problem is that it's taken a few years for Phoenix to really produce a solid product on the ice, and by the time that happened, all of this ownership stuff had come up. It's hard to draw new fans when there might not even be a team next year.
That said, I think they'll stay in Phoenix. The corporate support is there, and in my opinion, the fan base would be solid enough if they can replicate the success of teams like Nashville, Tampa, and Carolina. Like the negotitations in Pittsburgh a few years ago, the team/NHL are going to "seriously" consider moving to gain leverage.
I know everyone wants more Canadien teams, but Winnipeg and Quebec City are just NOT viable cities. They would immediately be the two smallest markets, and they could never gain any corporate support in the past. I see no reason to believe that has changed, and if the Canadien dollar doesn't remain strong there just isn't any viability for an NHL franchise in those cities. The only place in Canada that could potentially support a team is Hamilton, but they won't let a team move there. The owners want the start-up fee for a new franchise, which in Hamilton would probably be >200 million.
The Coyotes need to stay in Phoenix or the league needs to downsize.
I agree with pretty much everything you said, except the NHL doesn't want to move the team at all -- they aren't the ones trying to gain leverage. They desperately want to keep the team in Phoenix, but if a deal can't be made here, they might not have any other choice but to move it. And the only viable market that's ready to bring in a team immediately is Winnpeg.
Doesn't Kansas City have a new, empty arena? Living on Pittsburgh, I seem to remember that was the main moving threat. Supposedly, the new arena people had the suites all lined up, all they needed was a team. I don't know whether the city would be good or bad from a hockey standpoint, bit it can't be worse than at least a couple of the southern teams.
Isn't the Silverdome needing a new team? EH EH??
I think we would welcome back anyone that would put on the old whalers jersey.
Putting on a show at sports events is fun and all, but when it comes to the Wings, folks show up to watch a goddamn hockey game. When arenas have to go outside of their sport to entertain their fans, I feel it just looks like they're trying too hard.
Not much going on around the Joe? Not in the immediate vicinity, but there are several places within People Mover range that are always alive. The Joe is just in a cramped corner up against the river.
In Glendale, they put in so much effort to make hockey work because they HAVE to. Sorry, but that's just the way the culture is in most parts of the south.
For the record, I was in AZ for two weeks a few years back and it was awesome. This is in no way a hate-on-Arizona comment.
I can understand people who don't want to participate in extra events, but I don't see how its a bad thing that businesses in the area have created an attractive area for not JUST hockey but also enjoying a good time before and after the event. If all you want is hockey, then that's all you partake in. But personally, I prefer some good food beforehand and a few beers afterwards. If all I have to do is cross the street from the arena to be filled with a plethora of opportunities to do this, then awesome.
Obviously some people have never been to Nemo's or the Anchor Bar before the game and just taken the shuttle over. And be sure to do so while downing an alcoholic beverage.
In other words, Phoenix doesn't have fans, so they have to resort to a bunch of gimmicks. Teams without fans do not survive long.
I'm from Buffalo so I'm a huge Sabres (and Eastern Conference) fan, but after watching a couple of the Wings games this series, I have no doubt that the Wings are the best team in the NHL.
but w/ that being said, I want your goalie on my team! lol.
You're next Atlanta...(to Hamilton)...then Tampa Bay...(to Quebec)...then Carolina...(to Hartford)...
Bettman's southern strategy = fail.
I would bank on Florida moving before Tampa and Carolina
Because the small market Canadien strategy worked so well the first time...
There is a reason that teams left Winnipeg and Quebec City. They would immediately be the two smallest markets in the NHL, and they could NEVER get corporate support for the teams in the past. They failed before, and I have no reason to believe that a repeat performace would fare much better.
Also, there are several southern teams that have had plenty of success on and off the ice. Nashville with their new ownership group has fielded many competitive teams. Also, they're the 29th smallest market in the NHL but were 21st in average attendance. Carolina, one of the teams you want to move, is probably the most successful southern franchise. They have a strong brand, have won a Cup, and have a very passionate fan base. Tampa, though struggling somewhat in recent years, has had periods of sustained success and with Yzerman running things I think that will continue.
Not all southern markets are successful (i.e. Atlanta, Florida), but neither are all northern markets (NY islanders). There are certainly more challenges in southern markets, but there are several that are successful and a lot of it has to do with strong ownership groups, good front office staff, and responsible spending.
I'd have to go with Dallas as the best southern franchise
I never knew that Bill Daly posted as mstier on MGoBlog. Perhaps I could insert a bit of reality...(+/- 30 percent of all ticket revenue and far more television revenue is generated in Canada)...this revenue does nothing but subsidize weak markets in the United States.
FYI, Per Forbes 2010 operating income:
Carolina loses 7.3 million; Columbus loses 7.3 million; NYI loses 4.3 million; Nashville lose 5.5 million; Tampa loses 7. 9 million; Atlanta loses 8.0 million; Phoenix loses 20.1 million. As a reference, the Leafs made 82.5 million and the Wings 15. 3 million. Franchise valuations, as you might imagine, are quitre reflective of the list above.
2009 - An internal NHL report shows 31 percent of $1.1 billion in ticket revenue comes from Canada's six teams and 11 of the 24 U.S. teams aren't making money.
Present Day - Study: Canada can Support 12 NHL Teams
For what it's worth, regarding Tampa Bay's loss, that number reflects a year in which (1) the team was awful, (2) they drastically raised ticket prices, (3) ownership was a mess and (4) attendance was at its lowest point in years. I would bet that, the next time those numbers are run, they don't have a loss.
No one is saying that the Predators for instance will make $82 million a year and be a better franchise financially than Toronto. The problem is that there aren't 30 Torontos. Teams like Nashville and Tampa have had sustained periods of success and profits. Over the course of many years, these teams are profitable. Certainly not as profitable as Toronto or Detroit, but they're viable franchises.
Canadian teams make up such a larger part of their revenue share because there are only 6 teams in Canada, and 2 of them are the two biggest markets in the league. Edmonton, Calgary, and Ottawa are stable franchises but not they are not doing as well as many of the teams in the US (including the southern US). Toronto and Montreal are behemoths, and Vancouver is the best team in the league, so yeah the Canadien teams are pwning the market share. It's not really accurate to say that because of this there should be a bunch more teams in Canada.
Not sure if you're trying to be funny, ironic or whatever, but if you're not, Canadien is the French spelling. Canadian is the English spelling.
The Montreal franchise is always spelled the French way because its official name is in French (Le Club de Hockey Canadien).
This was strictly a reflex error while typing. No irony or humor intended, just poor spelling on my part. My apologies.
Bettman's only responsible for two southern teams: the Preds and Thrashers. Owners put teams in Phoenix and Carolina, not Bettman, and Tampa and Florida predate Bettman.
And you're nucking futs if you think places like Hartford can actually support a team. Fact: attendance in Carolina and Phoenix has been much better than attendance was in Hartford and Winnipeg.
the Blue Jackets? Gary B. put them in our least-favorite city.
Jackets and Crew have pretty good fanbases in the city as far as numbers. I've been to one Crew game and it's a pretty nice arena.
Srsly. Your fact statement is laughable and ridiculous. Also, the numbers identify it to be far from factual.
PHX averaged 11989 last year and 69 percent capacity...in the last year in Winnipeg before the move the team averaged 11316 and 72 percent of capacity...IN THE YEAR BEFORE THE TEAM MOVED. The year prior to that Winnipeg averaged 83 percent capacity which is, interestingly enough, two points higher than Carolina last year.
You, sir, are fail.
The Winnipeg Jets averaged 13,144 attendance in five of their last six years - and just to be nice I didn't include their actual last season.
The Coyotes averaged 13,776 in the last five years. I think it's funny how you only went as far back as last year, because if you had bothered to go before that you'd have had to include numbers in the high 14,000s and that would've been a problem for your point, wouldn't it? In the previous five years, they averaged 14,333. For every thousand fans per game, that's about $15 million in revenue, so it ain't chump change.
Now for the Whalers. In their final five years in Hartford, they averaged 11,621. Pathetic. The Hurricanes, in their last five years, have drawn 16,530. Based on that you'd have to be insane to think the Hurricanes would be better off back in Hartford.
Let me ask you something: do you think Michigan should have a varsity lacrosse team?
You conveniently ignore the capacity numbers on the Jets, Canes and Coyotes...of course you do...You might have a point with Hartford but are you really arguing that hockey is a better economic fit in PHX? or Carolina? or Tampa? etc.
Look up a little bit and read my response to Bill Daly; it's clear that the Canadian market via the Leats principally does nothing but subsidize Bettman's southern NHL fantasies. Canada could easily support 3 teams in greater Toronto alone...and that's just Toronto.
Nothing more humourous than people defending the Bettman/Daly vision. I'm sure you probably think Nick Lidstrom is the best defenseman of all time also.
Don't hate reality.
I'm always hesitant to lump Tampa Bay into that discussion. Ever since they finally got their act together (yes, it took a few years, but that's been over a decade ago now), they've generally put up pretty good attendance numbers (in one of the largest buildings in the league) and have done the best job of developing a local hockey culture of any of the "southern" franchises (seriously, youth hockey in the Tampa area is booming).
defenseman of all time
You don't get extra points or extra cash for capacity percentages. If your arena seats 80,000 and you average 40,000, you're doing a hell of a lot better than someone who sells out a 20,000 seat arena every time.
And your Canadian numbers don't tell the whole story. Of course not - they're presented by a Canadian paper. If Canada is an automatic money machine, why do the Senators also lose money? If being a "southern" team is what costs money, why do the teams in Pittsburgh, Washington, Minnesota (Minnesota!), Buffalo, St. Louis, and New York also lose money? Why are the Stars and Kings profitable? Your "Bettman's southern fantasies" are nothing but windmills to tilt at and it's counterproductive because it ignores the larger financial reality facing the league. As I said before, Bettman has placed exactly two teams in the South: Atlanta and Nashville. The Coyotes, Hurricanes, and Stars were moved there by their owners. The Lightning and Panthers existed before Bettman was commissioner. But you seem to be following the Canadian party line of Bettman the boogeyman - it's very convenient and ignores the fact that Canada didn't give proper support to two of its franchises and that's why they booked it for the States - and oh if only he weren't commissioner Canada would get its precious NHL back. Sorry, but it wasn't Gary Bettman that moved the Jets and Nordiques.
On the Senators, I don't know if there's a more boring city than Ottawa. (maybe Baltimore)
If you're looking at what teams receive NHL subsidy and revenue sharing they are overwhelmingly (current and historical data) in dollar figures American based teams based south of Pittsburgh. That is fact. Realistically, if the Leafs stopped existing the league would not be viable.
What puzzles me here is the ridiculous and ongoing defense of the Bettman southern strategy; I would be careful in stating "owners moved teams south" as this was the direction the league office had encouraged (and encouraged by the Board of Governors). A quick look at the amount of subsidy provided to American markets by Canadian teams clearly identifies the conceptual failure of that model.
We've lived this before in Canada...the Flames of Calgary once belonged to Atlanta. You might have noticed they are a high revenue team here in the GWN. The end game is that the southern strategy won't work; it's not a case of getting the NHL back but rather a case of longer term viability for 4 - 6 teams.
How quickly it's forgotten that it wasn't that long ago that Canadian teams were the ones in need of a bailout. That the Canadian government was being asked to provide a subsidy to Canadian teams not named the Leafs and Habs. Remember that? That was the topic of discussion for several years. The league was in no financial shape to help subsidize the struggling small-market Canadian teams and the teams had to ask the government, which refused.
Now it's supposedly the other way around. Could Canada support 12 teams? Maybe for a while. What if the Canadian dollar goes back to where it was in 2000? Most of those teams would fly right back across the border.
It's not so much a defense of the "southern strategy" as trying to point out to you that there is no overarching southern strategy. The teams that moved weren't "encouraged" southward except as far as it took to get them out of a country whose dollar was too weak to support them. That's why I say you're tilting at windmills. If Bettman wanted teams to move south as a first option, he'd have pushed the Penguins to Kansas City where they had everything all set up and ready to go. He's trying to keep teams where they are, which is smart, rather than use moving a team as the first option when it should be the last.
You forget that the southern strategy was 1990's era expansion...and KC was nothing more than a bargaining chip for Lemieux. Hockey was tried there before and moves to Denver and moves to NJ. He's trying to keep teams where they are to satisfy a ridiculous tv deal and maintain market presence in those spots in the US that could give a rat's ass about hockey.
No, I know exactly how 1990's expansion went down and the vast majority of it was pre-Bettman. I keep telling you this. Bettman expansion is nothing but the four turn of the century teams, and two of them are in the north.
And please tell me you're not simultaneously arguing for a return to Winnipeg and pulling the failed-once-already card with KC.
And what's wrong with "satisfying a ridiculous TV deal"? I'm not sure I follow, because it sounds like you're complaining about the TV money. TV money is a good thing for the league. The new deal is $200 million a year, which kind of outweighs (by a LOT) whatever money the Maple Leafs put into the system for revenue sharing. If it takes market presence in Phoenix to make that happen, then I'm all for it.
Since 2005 the league had been garnering a massive $77 million per year from Versus so it is quite an improvement to more than double that amount to $190/200million per year.
i think Damien Cox covers the current imbalance in terms of finances in tv deals well:
To Canadian hockey fans, this doesn’t necessarily mean a whole lot, although the fact you can get $140 million for national hockey rights in the Great White North and only about 50 per cent more from a market more than 10 times the size tells you something about the imbalance in hockey interest between the two countries.
It's not much of a tv deal and the apparent $6.6 million per team per year is, contrary to your argument, not much more at all than the Leafs annually contribute for revenue sharing.
Also, the Lidstrom remark was completely uncalled for and exposes your blatant biases in this argument.
I guess I could have just thrown myopia into the discussion; that would be my take on those who would see Lidstrom in that role (versus historically the greatest player of all time i.e., Orr). I'll dial back the sarcasm in future.
I don't remember what attendance was in Winnipeg because I was like 10 when they moved, but Coyotes attendance this year was ~12000. With the exception of the Kings who succeed simply because the city is so massive and the Islanders who are a disaster, there is an almost perfect correlation between average attendance and average temperature.
I know some of this is in jest, but it pains me to see stuff like this about the Coyotes. I work fairly high up at a major media organization in Arizona, and I have been involved with covering the Coyotes off and on.
I have a couple friends whose work depends directly on the Coyotes being here, and I know half a dozen people who work for the Coyotes and could suddenly find themselves out of a job.
On top of that, there is a decent fan base here (not a great one, but one that would pay the bills) -- the problem is that the franchise has been so terribly run for the last decade that it doesn't even matter. The big mistakes were the lease with the city of Glendale and the location -- way too far from the East Valley, which probably costs them 3,000 season-ticket holders annually -- but anyway, it's a tragedy that in a huge city with a decent hockey community, the horrific management could cost everyone here from ever seeing NHL hockey again.
That said, I do know a couple people who are close with Hulsizer and have been in touch with Glendale regularly about the Goldwater situation, and if I had to put money on it, I'd still bet the Coyotes are here next season. There's a lot still up in the air.
if they played in central Phx/Scottsdale. I live near Desert Ridge and work in the Biltmore, and trudging 45 min-1 hr each direction on a work night just isn't happening.
I'm guessing you probably know, since you're pretty connected, how did they end up in Glendale in the first place? I've heard it had something to do with Ellman/Moyes owning the land and getting Glendale to provide a pretty sweet deal/incentives. Where else were they considering? Seems like they could have built the exact same "Westgate" type of setup where Tempe Marketplace is right now. That thing would be a goldmine. Hell, put it on the res where they just put the new D-backs spring training facility.
I was at the game last night (disclosure I'm a Wings fan), and it was pretty damn depressing. Sat with a bunch of season ticket holders, and they were taking it pretty rough. Moms explaining to kids that this might be the last game they ever see, etc...
I think I was actually still in high school in Michigan when they moved out to Glendale, so I don't know all the details.
But I'm pretty sure that after the would-have-been-awesome Los Arcos project fell apart (for reasons I can't really remember even though it's still talked about), Glendale offered up the land to get the arena as part of the Westgate development.
I was at Game 3 in the press box, and I too am a lifelong, diehard Wings fan ... but it was sad to see how on edge the Coyotes PR guys were and how anxious some of my coworkers were, just knowing that their jobs might be yanked out from under them any day if this sale doesn't get completed.
I have a 4-year-old son who just started playing hockey, and he loves the Coyotes. I'd like to make him a Wings fan, but he loves what he loves -- it's not something I can control.
And I can't imagine trying to explain to him that the Coyotes aren't here anymore and he can't go to their games. He'll look like that little kid in the YouTube video when his mom explains that Michael Young won't play for the Rangers anymore.
He can always become a Winnipeg Jets fan.
The distance issue is way bigger than most give it credit for.
The majority of hockey fans are in the east valley, and Its a hassle to have to loop around the entire 101 to get to a game. From my house, its like an hour long drive.
I really hope they stay. I don't want to lose another team. And with solid management the fans will show.
Go Yotes and save the Yotes.
Agreed. I live out in Chandler and would probably go to 10-15 games a year if the Coyotes were in Scottsdale (at, say, the Los Arcos site or the spot on the reservation where the new DBacks facility sits) or even downtown. As it is, I go when the Wings play - it's a 1.5 hour slog through rush hour traffic on a weeknight to get out there.
Westgate is nice, Jobing.com is a great arena, and the Coyotes (at least now) put on a good show on the ice. But putting the arena in Glendale, when the East Valley is like 50% white-collar Midwesterners (i.e. potential hockey fans), was moronic.
but I didn't think attendance or support was the issue in Phoenix. The issue is who controls the arena, its concessions, parking etc. In other words wanting more money from the local government including a brand new arena which is opposed heavily.
As for the series, the Wings just played great minus a few dumb penalties. They were faster some of the time, hit harder and were very solid in 5-5 defense.
I think the bombshell announcement of Phoenix possibly moving really hurt thier focus, and in the Stanley Cup you are dead if you aren't 100% focussed and committed.
Either way it was a great series for the wings with a much needed rest to get ready for the Sharks(sharks) or Nashville/Anaheim.
You're partially correct, although the attendance isn't great. It's good enough to keep the team afloat, though, and it's not like the Coyotes have ever been a powerhouse.
A lot of it is the finances of the owners and the terrible lease with Glendale. For example, rather than getting money from parking, the team actually PAYS the city a surcharge for every vehicle that parks there (I have no idea why, but I assume it was part of the deal to get the land when they were so desperate for a hockey-only arena). There are some other problems, but basically, Hulsizer is trying to negotiate a deal that will allow him to work his way out of those constraints and make sure the team is financially viable.
What bizarre takes on the situation. So a Canadian team with a billionaire owner, with guaranteed 5-year sellouts in a league driven by gate attendance and their tv deal with the CBC, would be worse off and worse for the league than a team which has scarcely sold out their building in 16 years, where someone is always in the way of a sale, where the league has to pony up a crazy amount of cash just to unload the team, and to top it all off where they have to put on 'entertainments' for some sort of attendance to materialise? The situation is vastly different now for Winnipeg, incomparable with the circumstances under which they left.
Ever seen a game from Atlanta? Think that is viable by any stretch of the imagination? Your team (Wings) and mine (Habs) have to keep those losers and their brethren on life-support.
Not against southern teams at all - Tampa, Carolina, Dallas, Nashville (and of course LA) have done very well. Nashville's ownership was arguably much worse than Phoenix, and their corporate sponsorship was zero. They have a pathetic playoff record. But they are doing alright. I'd think Wnnipeg, Oklahoma City and (if they had a building) Seattle would do very well for the NHL - much better than Phoenix, Atlanta and Florida.
It is a shame real fans have to suffer...but they have before and will again.
And no, I never want to see the Nordiques surface again.
From the U-M page:
After Burton Tower lost the 1964 Pritzker Prize for Most Accurate Phallus, the university purchased a tract of land about one mile northeast of Central Campus in order to make a new attempt at winning that prestigious prize. Leaving no detail to chance, Lurie Tower was constructed with a visible urethra and two small towers at its base to simulate testicles . Lurie Tower was more successful than Burton Tower and was awarded the 1987 Most Accurate Phallus Prize.
I just read the SOM blurb, and these guys know what they're talking about:
ersity of Michigan School Of Music - The protruding bulwhark that is the music library is the most evident part of the School of Music to innocent passerby traveling on inter-campus buses. The building features padded torture cells, echo chambers, stairs, the world's most comfortable couch, and midget-sized doors placed above the toilets. In addition, the School of Music is home to the University's secret experiments in weather control. Room and corridor climates vary abruptly between tundra and rain forest, causing the official uniform to be shorts, t-shirt, and heavy winter coat. The building has received a number of citations from the EPA for its characteristic bursts of eccentric rainbows and steady emission of marijuana smoke.
I miss sneaking into the SOM at 10 at night and jamming with random people in random classrooms until 3 in the morning. Campus safety would never bother us.
i felt legitimately bad for the players and fans. i'm sure some of those guys have family and roots set up in phoenix. that being said i still found the video funny enough that i laughed out loud at "that's it! back to winnipeg!"
Moving sucks, but these guys could all get traded tomorrow. Except for the really old vets, it's tough to set up roots. I wonder whether they would rather live in a small, cold town where they are heroes, or be anonymous in Phoenix. Since most of them are from small town Canada, I'd assume the former, but obviously that's not true for Bryzgalov.
Rather the Bloc then Michel Goulet I guess...much unloved, either option! Impressed you knew.
The stress felt during the 'civil war' between us and the Nordiques was insane. Wouldn't survive it a second time around - though the 'performance' tonight might do me in.
On the franchise note, Ken Thompson, billionaire, heads the drive for a new team in Winnipeg; and the new tv deal crafted by Bettman does not allow NBC / VS to seek compensation if teams should move from troubled markets. Also, rumour is more prfitable NHL teams are pissed at having to foot the chumps' bills. Don't think Winnipeg is much of a concern for Bettman biz-wise this time around.
His ego will never survive it, methinks.
I thought you were saying that they were folding up they Coyotes and moving them somewhere else. I do remember reading they had money issues.
As a coincedence I saw a woman wearing a Hartford Whalers sweatshirt yesterday.