OT: The Lions/Replacing Jim Schwartz/Would a Big Ten coach make sense?
Little giants wont fly in the NFL and Narduzzi would be an epic downgrade in terms of discipline. The only good PR move is winning. Lions fans could care less if the coach is from Michigan.
Like on the field? MSU has a basket full of roses that say they were disciplined on the field. I have a feeling Texas is going to think they were disciplined enough to give him a serious look. I can't say that he is right for the Lions but don't kid yourself about how impressive Narduzzi has been.
Aaand the Lions somehow ARE disciplined? This has been one of the biggest knocks on Schwartz. Not sure which Lions games you've been watching.
I don't think we would.
The Lions have too much talent for a head coaching hire that is a "PR move." They need to win, and quickly.
If that's what they want, i think they should pull Bill O'Brien from PSU. He managed to win a lot last year with marginal talent, imagine what he'd do with a team stacked like the (not nittany) Lions?
This would be most good.
-13 TO differential is doom for almost any team.
The larger problem is that their TO differential has hovered around there every year that Schwartz has been the coach. It was acceptable when they had no talent, but now they're one of the most talented teams in the league and they're not getting any better on that front.
know who else has been there about the same amount of time, yeah, Stat Padford himself. Stafford is just too inconsistent right now. I am not trying to absolve the coaching staff of any blame but this was Stafford's year to really put up. He has just not been good enough.
You are right. That said, the secondary is not getting takeaways, either. WIth as much pressure as they get and the forced bad throws, I don't get how they didn't have at least 2 picks last night.
Stat Padford? Really?
Aside from that I somewhat agree, he's starting to remind me of Romo. Talented but turnover-prone. I can only hope a change to the offensive system might improve things. I don't think he's going anywhere any time soon so here's to hoping we can make it work and fast. So much talent...
Everyone used to talk about the strength of Drew Bledsoe's arm until skinny Tom Brady took over.
of Calvin, it is largely glossed over because of the incredible catches he makes but boy does he be droppin the pigskin. He has one inexplicable drop per game.
So true. He sure does run a lot of crossing routes where he finds the zone under the safeties in the middle of the field and Stafford throws it up where only we can get it. The problem is, he takes quite a beating on a majority of the catches. I think after a while that would wear on you and make you concentrate less on finishing the catch and more on taking the hit.
I do wonder about how catchable some of Stafford's throws are. The screen play to Joique was a good example. I know other recievers in the league will talk about how a QB throws a very catchable ball. With Stafford throwing a lot of fastballs, at all kinds of arm angles, I think it makes it harder for recievers to catch the ball. I think his inconsistency may effect the psyche of some of the recievers.
The most drops Calvin has ever had in an entire year is 9. That was set last night with 3 drops. So maybe if you want to talk about things that the Lions don't do well, at least try to come up with something better. 9 drops in an entire year being his most in a career? Yeah, he sure has butter fingers.
the only team with more turnovers than the lions is the giants...
when they see Mike Cox, the Giant.
Just say "No" to hiring college coaches. I would say it fails more often than not.
Gruden, Billick or...idk. That is all I have.
Wouldn't be a coaching change discussion without a John Gruden reference.
Jim Harbaugh, Chip Kelly and Pete Carroll. They're having huge successes with their current team.
I wouldn't mind Bill O'Brien. He has been the coach at pro level as a OC and knows the in and outs of NFL. Had success at PSU despite the sanctions. Would be a good fit for the Lions IMO.
I heard on Mike and Mike this morning that if he did leave PSU, the pros is a more logical landing spot for him due to some buy out clause if he goes to another college team.
know, man, he is sitting in a pretty comfy chair right now. The Penn State gig with absolutely no expectations and the opportunity to build it ground up how he sees fit. If I were O'Brien right now I would be laying in bed drinking a chocolate milkshake and ruminating about owning the world is not so bad.
I wasn't advocating one course of action or another...I agree he should just stay where he is. If he can make something of that team with one hand tied behind his back like its been, then imagine how good they could be once they're clear of sanctions? Unless some pro team throws ridiculous amounts of money at him, he should stay put, imo.
His buyout if he goes to another college team is $13M, which is why you don't hear him mentioned in any of these current openings.
Pat Shurmur...he really got that Eagles offense humming this year
You know what also fails more often than not? Hiring NFL coaches. I'd have to search for it, but plenty of people have looked into it and found that former college coaches perform at the same levels as NFL coaches. You notice college coach failures more because of confirmation bias and because a college coach is more likely to be hired into a bad situation.
I fear the absolute insanity and chaos that downtown will be when the Lions do win the Super Bowl
I thought this last night. First I thought, what happens when they win a playoff game? Then, if they win a conference title? I never got to the Super Bowl, because I concluded the city and much of the state would not survive after winning the conference. Everything will be light on fire.
The lions were basically gifted the division with GB and chicago QB injuries. Then they fell over themselves and choked on an easy schedule.
This pretty much sums up the 2013 lions:
Lol, yeah no need to worry there.
I think the city is safe for a while. I've never expected that to happen in my lifetime.
Find the best guy available and move on. This franchise is going to somehow have one of the best RBs and one of the best WRs in history and have maybe two-three playoff wins to show for it.
Its one. They have one playoff win since 1957 so suggesting they have three is pretty generous.
I would prefer they just keep Schwartz unless they can get Cowher or Gruden. Aside from those two guys, I think they would be better off standing pat, at least for next year.
These are the exact two guys I'm hoping for. They need a high energy guy that can relate to the young guys on the team as well as instill some discipline.
Agreed. I also think that they are too close to hire anyone other than a guy with a proven NFL track record at this point.
Both aren't coming back to coach especially Cowher. He's retired for good. Gruden has a nice cushy job at ESPN and isn't looking to leave anytime soon. He's the greatest tire kicker on every coaching vacany in college and pro. He wasn't a great HC in the pro anyway and won SB with Dungy's players.
Because they are former coaches who are relatively young and have won Super Bowls.
he's 56 but he has said he won't back into coaching unless it's near where he lives (READ: NOT DETROIT).
Gruden has a nice paying job at ESPN booth where the pressure is low. He has been mentioned in literally every coaching vacancies and was never a serious candidate at the same time. He won SB with Dungy's player. Any coach would've take over TB and won SB that way. TB was an uber talented team.
I didn't pay that much attention to Tampa Bay when they were good. Was Dungy the GM? Besides, aren't we asking the next coach to win with these players?
Marc Trestman is 57 and in his first year as an NFL HC, so I would say 56 is relatively young for an NFL HC.
Also, Mike McCarthy is 50, Leslie Frazier 54, and Jim Schwartz 47.
I put this is the Schwartz thread last night that was deleted, but I want the board's objective opinions. Who has been more disappointing this season- Lions or Michigan?
My vote is with the Lions due to emphasis on the bad season last year, good years before that, and the need to perform this year based on that. Add in all of the talent on the roster and they would be my choice. They really are not stepping up this year organization wide.
After having that buttery-soft schedule then looking terrible at footbal for essentially 2 months straight (Indiana doesn't count), it was far worse of a year for M.
Lions fans should have been conditioned to late-game/season collapses long ago.
Lions easily based purely on the fact that they more players at the top of their game and Michigan is still too young. Lions have several players that are playing at least above average ranging to high end at their position in the NFL. Can you honestly say that about Michigan at this point. Maybe once some of these kids get more experience but right now, how many starters can you say are at the high end of the Big Ten much less the NCAA. Back in the 90's we would put 10 guys a year on the All Big Ten team and often another five as honorable mention. Not happening any more. Not saying we may be there again and maybe in another two or three years but right now, not happening. Lions have the best receiver in football and several players who are just below Pro Bowl status/arguably top quartile of their position (Suh, Bush, Stafford) and a few more that aren't far off that have been held back either by their youth or injuries. Truth be told, other than at corner and #2 receiver, how many position groups on the Lions desperately need an upgrade?
are right, they have lots of pieces but for some reason the peices do not come together well in terms of a coherent finished product. I have no idea what the Lions are on offense. They have a complete absence of identity. "Throw it up to Calvin" is not a philosophy but it is the only discernable game plan that I take away from Lions games. I watch their games and I have no idea what they want their theme to be. Are we going to beat them this way? Are we going to attack this part? I don't feel like those questions have been thoroughly explored when I watch Lions games. It is a complete grab bag.
Michigan was faltering and clearly on the wrong track for over half the season. Additionally, it seemed like Michigan's biggest problems were youth and somewhat of a lack of talent.
Detroit was gifted the division title, was in position to reluctantly take it all year, and has shat the bed harder and harder every game.
Michigan's schedule was terrible this year and had the offense - at the very least - not completely melted down against Nebraska and Iowa, we're looking at least 9 wins. The fact that our offense looked so bad so many times (Akron, UConn, Penn State, Iowa, Northwestern, Nebraska, MSU) without suffering any injuries other than Dileo (and its not like they used him till OSU anyway) made this season a maddening one to watch. If Michigan were at 9 wins, this year is palatable and you would have seen a lot less animosity amongst the fanbase
The Lions season is right there because of the injuries to Cutler and Rodgers. Completely ridiculous to actually be looking up at those two teams (and considering how bad each of their defenses has been) at this point in the season.
I think Michigan's season is still more disappointing. I have some expectations for Michigan football. I have none for the Lions; every Lions' victory is a minor miracle for me. I'll never forget the 0-16 year.
Playoff bubble team, ends in disappointing fashion. Lather, rinse, repeat.
I'd have to go with Michigan. The Lions have been failing to live up to expectations for the vast majority of my life, so I'm accustomed to it.
Seems like a really good guy. He can definitely coach, plus it takes him out of our hair in the future. This guy is a remarkable recruiter given the penalties on the program.
You know there's no recruiting in the NFL right? The guy hasn't proven anything as a head coach. I don't care that he's a good guy. The Lions can't take a risk like that with the team so close talent-wise to being a contender. They need to get a proven winner as a head coach for once and some mad scientist coordinators that will excite our young and talented team.
Bill O'Brien have coached in the NFL.
They tried with Mooch and failed miserably though Millen had a lot to do with it. They hired Martz as the OC and failed big time because of his philosophy and personality clash.
I can't tell but are you calling Bill O'Brien a retread? He was an OC.
Sorry for the confusion. I'm calling hiring former NFL HC, retreads(which they typically are). Bill O'Brien is not one of them. He should be near the top of the list for Lions in coaching search if they fire Schwartz which they will (if they don't make the playoff).
I was mentioning that aspect as a tribute to the character that he displays. If recruits are willing to go to Penn State with no hopes of going to a bowl game or win championships, then he should be able to convince free agents to go to the Lions who have no hope of making the playoffs or competing for championships as well.
Logical names that come to mind from the college ranks:
David Shaw (I know, Raiders and stuff), BOB, BK (facial explosions aside, would be an upgrade IMO), Franklin, Strong.
none are good options - with Shaw being the lesser of the evils.
David Shaw is a great option. And I wouldn't worry about the Raiders. Any coach that looks at what he has talent-wise in Oakland and Detroit and chooses Oakland gets what he deserves.
Besides, the most dropped factoid for the next month will be that David Shaw went to Adams High School in Rochester in the 1980s when his dad coached for the Lions. It will be the "Urban Meyer was a grad assistant for Earle Bruce" for the Lions hopefully soon to begin coaching search.
I'll contribute to his annual salary.
If Lovie Smith can get fired after a 10-6 year, Schwartz can get fired after this. The Lions have been nototious for turnovers, and penalties his entire tenure. Rebuilding in NFL is not like college, you can get a new guy in their who makes an immediate impact.
I would love if that happened...
I think Lovie would be a great choice
Someone said yesterday that the Lions-est thing to do would be to beat the Ravens and Giants and then lose the division by losing to the Vikings. I've decided I disagree. The Lions-est thing to do is exactly the opposite.
As for hiring a coach from the college ranks: No. The vast majority of coaches are successful at one or the other but not both, Jim Harbaugh notwithstanding.
I say hire gruden and or cowher or someone who is a proven winner cause that's what detroit needs. Narduzzi might b a good hire for def. Cord. But detroit has the talent just looks like the coaches don't have what it takes.
Gruden AND Cowher!?
First time I've heard that one. Thanks for the laugh.
If the articles from NFL writers over the last few weeks are accurate, it seems like the internal belief for Lions' management is that they have at least most of the horses to be a consistent contender, which to me makes it look as if they are looking at possible leadership changes for the team. However, for the Lions, I believe one would also have to look at the actual management ranks as well for potential changes - as in, Mayhew-level. The Lions bring in new players each year and new staffs periodically through the years and seem to consisently fail to address building a culture of winning, which must involve the folks in Allen Park. Any coach will only do so well in these curcumstances.
mayhew has been doing quite well, hes the one thats gotten all those "horses" to become a contender. new coach can change a lot of things, look at the bears offense this year compared to the tire fire it has been the last decade.
Check out their second round picks over the last five years and rethink this comment. He's taken many big swings and misses. Jury's out on Darius Slay but he again drafted a guy who was injured only to be surprised that injured players are injured.
Jordon Dizon will be a pro bowler next year.
The names above or maybe even old man coughlin. They need someone who has won it all. This team is setup to win now. Not in 3-4 years (again.)
Unless the Vikings and Packers gift the Lions a playoff spot, Schwartz is gone. Its not that last night was a terrible loss, its that last night even mattered towards earning a playoff bid. The Lions should be coasting to a playoff spot right now. At worst they should be 10-4, instead they are 7-7.
Bill O'Brien would be my pick for a replacement, though Belicheck's coaches haven't done well in the NFL.
This guy built championship teams in two different places, and his demeanor and obvious organizational and talent-evaluating skills would seem to be a good fit for the NFL. His obvious ethical issues don't matter in the NFL, either.
But like it I do. Consider this:
- If Tressel succeeds, as a Lions fan I'm happy.
- If Tressel fails, as a Michigan fan I'm happy.
(Obviously this does not work for Michigan fans who are not Lions fans. Odds are good these peoiple will end up happy, though, considering the Lions track record.)
I don't think Gruden and Cowher are ever coming back... But... Gruden might be salivating at the chance to coach up a guy like Stafford after hearing his praise and criticisms of the kid last night. It's not gonna happen but I kinda talked myself into it anyway.
That's is shtick. He does it everyweek. Not that this has anything to do with Stafford but I wouldn't take that as indicative.
Agreed. It sure seems like Gruden loves everybody.
Needs to make the change, but I'm afraid he'll bring in Kiffin...
Ford is the problem and the change that he needs to make is to sell the team.
Yes Ford has made many mistakes in the past but it seems like this particular problem is not an ownership issue. Martin Mayhew has assembled a talented roester and hired a coach that took the team from 0-16 to a wild card birth in the span of a few years. It seems like Schwartz is not the guy to take the Lions to the next level, but I wouldn't put that on ownership.
The thing with the Fords is that they actually let the guys they hire do their jobs. Their mistakes have been trusting the wrong guys.
But hell, even Georgia Frontiere got it right once. I'm not sure she knew what a football was.
O'Brien would be the only college guy I'd look at, and only because he has previous NFL expereince. Other than that, this team has the talent to be a consistent 10-6 or better team in the NFL, but they play so recklessly they keep shooting themselves in the foot. That is on Schwartz more than Stafford. The sooner they make the change, the better.
I'd rather they bring in a proven coach like Coughlin or Tomlin, or whoever is out there this year rather than go the "up and coming coordinator" route. This team is close enough to contending that they don't need to grow along with a first-time coach.
After this season so far and last night, I'm now convinced that the Lions will never win the Super Bowl in my lifetime (I'm 29).
Obviously, Schwartz is a huge problem and needs to go, but Stafford is almost as big of an issue, in my opinion. Guy is just so inconsistent, and borderline lazy on the field. His side-arm throws aren't "cute" or "creative" when he's missing wide open receivers regularly. I think we need to look at some of the QB's in this upcoming draft honestly, don't care how big Matt's contract is. But just not Johnny Football, because he parties as much as Stafford.
So Stafford isn't going anywhere for a while.
Great calls by the OC last night too. How many times did anyone else see this. Third and Short, Lions empty the backfield, Baltimore adjust to bring the house, Lions throw incomplete pass or INT. WHy? What is the OC or whoever calls the plays looking at? What is up with OC this year? What does it take to be one? Why do the two on my favorite two teams seem to suck?
Feel like I might cry.
Very good point. When you have a strong runner like Joique Bell, who will always lower his shoulder for 1 yard, this in inexcusable. This is Borgesian levels of out-thinking yourself. Was almost expecting the tackle over re-alignment, audible to empty backfield, fake jet sweep, pick 6.
Yeah, I couldn't figure out why they kept doing that. Makes no sense to me.
Defense is as big of SB issue as any.
But he isn't the Lions biggest problem. A lack of discipline is.
... go after Borges.
reverse psychology doesn't work on my kids either
Suck so kill two birds have them hire al Borges.
I'm cool if the Detroit Lions got Bill O'brien
as for other coaches
not shannahan, kubiak or lovie smith...
O'Brien,Ken Wisenhunt. I'm cool with either one.
Any other decent assistant coaches or DC's or OC's...
Cowher aint coming back, either is Gruden....
I am cool with Tom Coughlin also
So Coughlin, O'brien, Wisenhunt, ( if the steelers somehow can Mike Tomlin i am cool with that also)
and yes the lions sucking is basically all on stafford and linehan...
staffords extensions is 5 years 76.5 million,,that kicks in next season
i was against it in july when it happened.
he is garbage, as proven when he has no megatron ( see cleveland preseason and GB regular season)
If we can trade Stafford, do it ! I gotta imagine what thye cap hit would be
but somebody needs a qb, we can start fresh.
he is uber talented with a golden arm. He just doesn't have the right coaching to guide him.
He needs someone who'll smack him upside the head every time he does that sidearm shit when it's not necessary.
B1G Ten has some terrible coaches right now. Just terrible.
The Lions have gone through enough coaching changes at this point for me to believe that the only way they are ever going to be consistently relevant is if the Fords ever give up the team and sell it. Which they won't.
When a team is this bad for this long, it's an ownership problem. I don't know how else you can explain a half-century of utter ineptitude. You'd think the team would've won the Super Bowl on accident by now.
O'Brien would be a nice hire for head coach and would obviously handle the offense. Narduzzi I think could work as a D-coordinator.
Problem with the Lions:
1) They abandon the run quickly even when it is successful - they were averaging almost 6 yards a run yesterday but multiple times when they needed a yard they would go to an empty set. If you can't run when the other team knows you are going to run, you will lose a lot of football games.
2) They have a good quarterback who will NEVER be elite but rely on him to win games like he is an elite quarterback. You have to know what you have. Elite quarterbacks are good at four things:
- Checkdowns: Knowing what the defense is giving them and taking it. The number of times Stafford makes a high risk throw into significant coverage rather than taking the low risk throw that is readily available and can get you the first down is striking to me. If he had his arm, more touch and Alex Smith's penchant for valuing the ball EXTREMELY highly, he would be in great shape. It is no surprise to me that the Lions were 6-3 when Stafford was valuing the ball and 1-4 since he has basically stopped valuing the ball.
- Audible: He is a very smart guy who is actually not a very smart quarterback oddly. He actually doesn't understand the nuances of the position very well nor can he read defenses very well. There is a reason they have never tried no huddle with Stafford because he doesn't process what he is given at that type of speed. It is actually the most surprising part of his game.
- Accuracy: He is just not a very accurate quarterback. A large part of that is mechanics and part of it is that his pocket awareness makes it such that he doesn't move in the pocket to get himself the best angles to throw with a natural arm motion at his height. He isn't tiny but he is not the tallest quarterback. Russell Wilson and Drew Brees make up for this by setting up in the pocket with a clean window to throw from. Stafford makes up for this by throwing off his backfoot and side arming and etc. This affects his accuracy even on natural throws set up from the pocket. In my mind it's a real problem that if it is about mechanics is fixable but if it's about pocket awareness, is actually not.
Not being accurate enough is a death nail for quarterbacks. He was never very accurate at Georgia and it's actually gotten worse in the pros. Just even think about the number of deep balls he misses. If he gets it there it is purely his arm strength which lets him beat coverages rather than the mechanics of the throw.
- Seam route: He can't throw a seam route...AT ALL. In fact, he doesn't throw check downs or slants very well either. He throws really great flag routes, deep in routes, and go routes (preferably intermediate go routes) but hall of famers throw either great seam routes or great deep out routes and he doesn neither well. People sit on his slants hoping for mistakes or they force him to throw deep out routes.
He is a qb that has relied on his arm strength to survive his entire career and I suspect he may be one of those quarterbacks who starts using his smarts when his arm strength starts to wane and that is when he will be an even better quarterback (like Rich Gannon). He will just never be elite. Which means you have to have a strong running game that you make your team first identity, play action once you have gotten them where you want them with that play action working to get the ball downfield. The next coach has to be committed to the RUN not the pass. This is not a QB that you can commit to the pass with unfortunately.
Jim Tressel: Runs first, stops the run, his teams play with significant discipline and understands the players
Bill O brien: If you want to commit to the pass then you go with BOB but I just think that for this team and with this qb he is the wrong guy.
David Shaw: See Jim Tressel - plus he has coached in the pros. Why he picked Oakland I will never, ever know.
Dan Quinn: I really, really like Dan Quinn A LOT - he is a great guy and a very smart defensive coordinator. But with coordinators you never know how much is them and how much is the HC, and how will they do being the head coach versus the OC.
My hope is David Shaw. I think he will do a masterful job and I think he will really help this team get to the next level. Teams take on the make up of their head coach. Schwartz is a smart guy but he is entirely too emotional to guide a team like this one. This is a team that needs to be much more focused and much more deliberate in everything it does. It needs to be LESS reckless. That comes from the coach with a plan to be more committed to not making mistakes and playing as sound as possible. Talent wins out if you give that a chance.