OT-LeBron James vs. Michael Jordan
LeBron might still have 5 years left of playing at the level he is right now. His game last night was another incredible display. Relevancy bias aside as I am 47 years old Lebron has the best combination of athleticisim and physichal dominance I have ever seen in person.
MJ had to get past the bad boy Pistons. He also had to play against Magic, Worthy and the Lakers as well as Larry, Parrish and McHale for the Celtics. Though no fault of his own Lebron never faced the level of competition MJ did. MJ had Pippen but MJ helped create Pippen I am not sure the same can be said for Dwayne Wade.
Defensively I will take MJ over LJ all day and this is where most people forget the dominance of MJ.
Interesting comparison here:
http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/j/lebron_james_vs_michael_jordan.htm
Watching MJ and now LeBron is special. The next 5 years will sway many opinion no doubt but it is highly unlikely LeBron plays AAA baseball and comes back for another Championship.
yes, this is especially relevant because the Pistons passed on both Lebron and MJ in the 2003 NBA draft.
Next question.
of MJ in this debate. I am biased as he has always been and always will be my favorite athlete. But i will say that LB is much more physically gifted than MJ, he's a beast and you can never bet against him, even if his team is down and out. He's a very close 2nd behind MJ for greatest of all time. And I do agree with OP, MJ had better competition
If Lebron manages to will Cleveland to victory against GSW, then that is probably the single greatest feat in NBA history considering the circumstances.
Probably eclipses West's 69 finals and Big O's triple double season. Definitely eclipses MJ's 93 Finals.
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I don't know why people are downvoting this. He's just emphasizing how much Cindy Lou cares about this debate.
I did enjoy watching the Pistons shut Jordan down in the late 80's / 1990. His frustration was delicious.
I enjoyed 1991 when the Bulls bitch slapped the former "bad boys" in four games as Bill and Isiah left their home court without honor or dignity.
The Bulls grew and overcame while the Pistons whilted, diminished and sulked away.
Only difference is that the Celtics did it on the road. Only people who don't seem to get that are Piston haters.
The Pistons “walkout” on the Bulls while being defeated in Game 4 of the 1991 EC Finals was no different than when the Celtics starters walked off the court while being defeated by the Pistons in Game 6 of the 1988 EC Finals.
“Bill Laimbeer is all walking [upright]…and Isiah just dips around him. But the way it looked, it looked like Isiah was trying not to be seen.” – John Salley
When the Celtics walked off the court in Game 6, it was not translated as a lack of respect for the Pistons because it clearly wasn’t meant that way. If there were any doubts, one should review the footage of Kevin McHale vociferously slapping hands with Isiah Thomas as he walked off the court, imploring him to “not be satisfied” with just getting to the NBA Finals and to go out and beat the Lakers. Furthermore, there was no trash talk before or after that game between the two teams.
But no one can doubt that the Pistons were intentionally trying to make a statement to the Bulls by walking off? It was an obviously calculated decision to rebelliously spit on the Bulls.
Listening to John Salley try and explain away Isiah Thomas being caught on camera blatantly attempting to avoid eye contact with the conquering Chicago Bulls was classic. (Isiah was nowhere near close enough to Laimbeer to walk around him, but he was right next to the Bulls bench.)
Additionally the bitter and childish comments made by the Pistons’ players after the game - Laimbeer’s terse mantra “they won” that he repeated to every question and Rodman’s refusal to credit the Bulls for anything – were consistent with the “sore loser” label they had earned.
What part of Bad Boys don't you understand?
Seriously, they were called the _Bad_ _Boys_. Did you expect them to give the Bulls a Good Luck card with a $5 bill tucked inside?
WTF man. Just got their hearts broke, punched far above their weight on heart and spirit for the past six years (I mean, looking at Magic-Bird-Jordan, do you know how f'ing good the Pistons had to be to win TWO championships right in the middle of that era? That's a rhetorical question because I'm pretty sure you don't), and you're all in a huff because they didn't shake hands after the game? Get a grip on the new millenium man. There's a whole new world out here.
PS You know what's poor form? Holding a grudge because you didn't like getting your ass kicked for six years and only agreeing to represent your country in the Olympics if your big, bad bully is kept off the team. Isiah apologized for walking off the court in 91. Did MJ ever apologize for his own asshattery? Probably not, but then again maybe he did and I missed it - this reply notwithstanding, I don't make a habit of listening to whiny crybabies.
Dude was mad that Barkley said he wasn't doing a good job in Charlotte, when Charlotte was not doing well under his ownership. And those two were best friends. Now he won't speak to Chuck. And his Hall of Fame induction speech had heavy doses of pettiness. MJ isn't apologizing for anything 20+ years ago.
So it's not like everybody left the court the same way.
Plus the Bulls were talking big time during that series. They didn't do it in previous years, when the Pistons were bouncing them from the playoffs and Scottie Pippen was coming down with "headaches". But they finally get the upper hand against an aging team and all of a sudden they got big stuff to say.
During the series, the Pistons weren't talking trash and that was never their thing. So if you can't show respect to the defending champs, something the Pistons did to both the Celtics and Lakers, then don't expect them to respect you.
Joe Dumars did the same thing with the Bulls. He shook their hands and passed out congratulatory hugs. So there is no difference. In an interview James Worthy even said that the Celtics played like the bad boys. The Pistons learned how to win by watching the ones who kept beating them. Now as far as Lebron and Michael. For me there is no comparison. Michael all the way. He cut his teeth on the best competition the NBA has ever had to offer. At least 10 teams coming out of the 80's and early 90's would absolutely demolish this Golden State team and would beat Lebron's team as well. Michael would not have lost to that Dallas team that beat the Lebron led Miami nor the Spurs team. The bottom line is the competition level is sub par now to then so it is hard to give an accurate assessment. But Mike kept some of the greatest players to ever play the game from getting rings simply because he was playing at the same time they were. Karl Malone, Patrick Ewing, John Stockton, Charles Barkley. At least one or two of those players would have multiple rings in this era of basketball. Trust and believe that.
McHale stayed and showed love. Bird, Chief and Dennis Johnson hit the showers.
you catch crabs this weekend.
Fun fact, crabs are going extinct in most western nations thanks to pubic shaving and waxing.
So we've got that going for us.
Which is nice.
MJ certainly grew but Scottie was and always has been a punk.
90 when he had a 'migraine'.
94 when he quit on the team.
Later on when he 'played' for the Rockets and Trailblazers - nice effort.
While I love MJ and he is one of if not the GOAT - he had a ton of help on his teams. His teams were stocked well beyond what LBJ is playing with now.
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Then hopefully a couple more years like Paul Pierce is scraping out.
These playoffs aren't helping, with all of the injuries he is killing himself.
or LeBron?
Eh, that's assuming his injuries are really injuries. My 2 year old daughter gets up faster than he does after wiping out. She also whines significantly less than LeBron when she gets back up. There is no denying LeBron's talent. He may end up being the best to ever play. But he's the biggest baby in pro sports. His injuries are played up for the camera. Big time.
The biggest baby in pro sports is Cindy Crosby.
What... slow day on the adidas v. Nike front?!
Upvote for you as I was thinking the exact same thing. This topic has been on sports talk radio for the last few days and am tired of it. Better to make this comparison when LJ is done with BB.
Didn't Sports Science do a comparison of the two? I thought they did, but can't find anything so maybe I'm wrong.
I saw a graphic on ESPN... don't know the exact source... and it's still apples and oranges territory.
There is something about that argument that doesn't sit right with me...in essence, because these Future HOF players didn't win a ring and were all on a stacked olympic team, MJ is better than LeBron. What happens if Kevin Durant and Westbrooke never win a Championship...how about Curry?...Chris Paul? All are future HOFs who may never win a ring and all have played on stacked olympic teams; olympic teams whose competition far exceeds that of the Dream Team. There may be alot of reasons MJ is better than LeBron James, but that is weak.
oh...good thing I can look back on today and tell you definitively that Paul, Griffin, Curry, Westbrook, Durant, and Davis never win a championship. Now we are both talking about "what happened."
Your argument is even dumber now, because the other side can't win bc of the arbitrary definition of greatness that you imposed.
Furthermore, MJ won his first title at 28. Lebron won two by that time. By 30, Lebron has more MVP awards, more final appearances, and both have 2 titles, with Lebron setting a team up for a real shot at 3. Comparing raw stats is difficult between the disparity of the ages on when they arived in the NBA, but Lebron either exceeds MJ or, at the very least, comparable. THat is what happend.
Ultimately, if you can't see that the discussion has merit, you never will.
I am not ignoring that fact, as it is clearly stated in the above post (reading comprehension budy). And you keep moving your goal posts...in your argument, you stress what happened and so I followed suite in mine...apparently all seasons are created equally, as the first two seasons of an 18 and 19 year old LeBron apparently had equal significance to his latter years. And to bring up MJ college accomplishments is just off target...who cares as what his college record is when we are talking about him being a pro. Furthermore, if you don't think Lebron would have won a college title at Duke (his acknowleged first choice), than you are kidding yourself.
You further poopoo the fact as to what has happened to date between the two...that at this stage in his career, Lebron HAS acomplished more than MJ. I am not saying he will be better than MJ in the long run, but as of today, to say that MJ is better than LeBron and it isn't close is just wrong.
MJ-23 all day!
MJ had another top 10 player at the time in Pippen with him. I hate Pippen, but he's a better sidekick than what LeBron has had most of his career. LBJ had Wade, but he was an injured shell of his former self.
LBJ and Wade never faced what MJ faced to get there. Wade was already great-Pippen was molded by MJ.
Ironically enough, Wade was at his best in 2011, the year they didn't win because LeBron melted down. Wade was incredible against the Mavs (and all season in general) that year.
I'm totally an MJ truther, but I will happily concede that if LeBron pulls this off with this group of players, it's more impressive than any single title MJ won, even the '98 one where he willed a dying Bulls team to a title after playing every single game for three straight finals runs in his late 30s.
The thing is, it's really difficult to tell how important one player is to a team sport. Every assist needs a finisher. Every rebound starts with a miss. Where would Stockton have been without Malone? Could Jordan have won so many rings without Pippen? These questions are impossible to answer unless that particular player just vanishes without any sort of trade or other market move where a superstar is replaced with a presumed equivalent.
Which, in Michael Jordan's case, ACTUALLY HAPPENED.
He retired for several years in the 90s, leaving the Bulls franchise otherwise intact, so we were able to see just how good a team they were without him. And it turns out, pretty darn good. In the '93-'94 season with Michael Jordan off playing baseball, the Bulls won 55 games and lost the Eastern Conference semifinals in 7 games. Their elimination came down to the final play of the final game. And it wasn't a fluke. They did a bit worse the next season (still no Jordan), but still made it all the way to the Eastern semis.
This isn't to say anything about Michael Jordan as a player, but the point is, neither do his rings. He didn't win championships because he "willed" Chicago to win (tho he was obsessed with winning). He didn't win championships because he was the best player of his generation (tho he was). He won because there is historical proof that Chicago was -- at worst -- one of the 8 best teams in the NBA without him. Add the best player in the NBA to THAT and yes, you have a dynasty.
The lessons here:
1) Basketball uses such small rosters that a single player can dramatically improve a team, but it's still ultimately a team sport. No championship team in the modern era relies exclusively on one player.
2) People who attribute the Bulls' championships to Michael Jordan's uniqueness are very stupid people who can't be taken seriously about anything related to basketball.
Cavs before Lebron:
| 2000–01 | Eastern | 11th | Central | 6th | 30 | 52 | .366 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2001–02 | Eastern | 14th | Central | 7th | 29 | 53 | .354 |
| 2002–03 | Eastern | 15th | Central | 8th | 17 | 65 | .207 |
Cavs with Lebron:
| 2003–04 | Eastern | 9th | Central | 5th | 35 | 47 | .427 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2004–05 | Eastern | 9th | Central | 4th | 42 | 40 | .512 |
| 2005–06 | Eastern | 4th | Central | 2nd | 50 | 32 | .610 |
| 2006–07 | Eastern | 2nd | Central | 2nd | 50 | 32 | .610 |
| 2007–08 | Eastern | 4th | Central | 2nd | 45 | 37 | .549 |
| 2008–09 | Eastern | 1st | Central | 1st | 66 | 16 | .805 |
| 2009–10 | Eastern | 1st | Central | 1st | 61 | 21 | .744 |
Cavs after Lebron:
| 2010–11 | Eastern | 15th | Central | 5th | 19 | 63 | .232 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2011–12 | Eastern | 13th | Central | 5th | 21 | 45 | .318 |
| 2012–13 | Eastern | 13th | Central | 5th | 24 | 58 | .293 |
| 2013–14 | Eastern | 10th | Central | 3rd | 33 | 49 | .402 |
Cavs with Lebron Round 2:
| 2014–15 | Eastern | 2nd | Central | 1st | 53 | 29 | .646 |
|---|
......that mans name was............ David Stern!
LeBron is clearly the more gifted athlete.
MJ was, and still is, the better basketball player.
However, LeBron is catching up to MJ as a teammate and as somebody who "just wins."
I love MJ (he ignited my initial love of basketball), but LeBron is creating an argument for #1.
Kobe is the closest we have seen to MJ. LeBron is more like Magic than MJ. Although, if the Cavs get it done, LBJ will definitely have more respect from me. LBJ is a supreme athlete. He's finally using his big frame and going to the cup.