OT: Junior Seau suffered CTE, is football too dangerous?

Submitted by ak47 on

So CTE is chronic brain damage and can be caused by repeated blows to the head as small as what a typical OL or DLinmen go through on every play.  I ask this because the typical argument is that these guys are getting paid millions of dollars and are making a decision.  I have two problems with this argument: 1) This sort of damage is accumulated over a lifetime, plenty of youth football players could easily be permanently damaging their brains with no real knowledge of the dangers and we probably never hear about their health issues. 2) Football is borderline exploitive.  The number of professional football players from disadvantaged backgrounds is disproportianetly high.  For a lot of these players something like football is the only way out of a bad neighberhood. The choice between a potentially short life in poverty where statistics say there is a greater than 50% you are  going to be dead or in jail by 50 or football where you could damage your brain for life by 35 does not seem like a legitimate choice.

I'm not sure how I feel about football right now but I know the billions of dollars it generates is going to keep players futrue health low on the priority list.  The board seemed kind of slow and I thought this could be a legitimate discussion. If people don't think so I apologize.

I Like Burgers

January 11th, 2013 at 12:02 AM ^

There's no helmet invention you can make that's going to stop your brain from bouncing around inside of your skull.  With the speed and force of the hits at the NFL level, the helmet can only help so much.  Its like an air bag.  They're great when you get hit going 35mph.  But when you're going 80?  Not going to help out a lot.

robmorren2

January 10th, 2013 at 11:55 PM ^

I'm so sick of this debate. Football is a choice. You can quit at any time. Part of the reason you receive an insane amount of money is because you risk having your body battered in front of millions of viewers. Other professions are risky; police officer, fire fighter, marine, crab fishermen ... all choices as well. I'm sick of people feeling sorry for guys that got millions and messed up their heads in the process. You can't tell me that people thought getting hit in the head repeatedly was a good idea until all of this research came out. Everybody has a choice. I realize a lot of players use football to get out of tough situations, but its still a choice. Obviously people will play despite risks. How many have quit since all this research came out? Furthermore, is there really that big of a disparity between the percentage of former players that commit suicide to the percentage of the regular citizens? You hear a handful of stories out of thousands of retired players.

robmorren2

January 11th, 2013 at 12:31 AM ^

But their parent(s) have a choice. And if your parents don't know/care enough to realize that repeated blows to the head is risky, then how far do you think those kids will get anyway? Football is risky, but so is riding a bike or going swimming ... hell these days even showing up at school is risky.

gutnedawg

January 11th, 2013 at 12:40 AM ^

The parents have a say but we are not trying to blame anyone. Maybe the parents are unaware of the risks from minor hits to the head over an extended period of time? Also you don't get hurt from riding a bike. Something must happen for you to get hurt: you fall, a car hits you, etc.

robmorren2

January 11th, 2013 at 1:05 AM ^

And some people can get hit in the head a thousand times and be fine. Just look at Muhammad Ali or Joe Frazier compared to George Foreman or Sugar Ray. All 4 have taken way more head trauma than most/all football players. 2 of them are barely functional, and 2 are completely functional. If you play football, you could get hit 5,000 times and get brain damage on hit 5,001. Or you could get hit time 1 of 5,000 and get brain damage on the first hit. Or you could get hit 10,000 times and be fine. If your kid rides his bike to the park, he could get hit on his first trip, his 5,000th trip, or never get hit. Its your choice to let him ride the bike. Its your choice to let him play football. Riding a bike isn't the issue. Playing football isn't the issue. The issue is whether the risk is worth the reward to you or your kid. If you take away football, kids/ppl will bash their heads some other way. Aggression, competition, and organized violence has been a part of society as far back as you can go.

ak47

January 11th, 2013 at 12:05 AM ^

The point of this debate isn't the health of nfl players, its the thousands of other people who play football too without getting paid millions. And its not about banning football, its about having a discussion to see if we can reduce risk.

And people need to stop bringing up other jobs like policemen.  Those jobs are a necessary part of a functioning society, football is not.  Furthermore I'm sure if you could change rules around how fires and firemen interact that made being a fireman safer most people would support that, we can do that with football and its a discussion I think is worth having, you clearly don't.

robmorren2

January 11th, 2013 at 12:27 AM ^

It's part of human nature. From the Colosseum, to boxing, to football, to the UFC. People are going to find ways to get their brains beat in, and people are going to enjoy watching it.

I understand where you are coming from with the topic, and I'm not mad at you for having it. The part that bugs me is when people make Seau and others out to be helpless victims. He made a choice and he paid the consequences. There was also a possibility of living to be 90 and having millions to live off of. And who is to say that Seau didn't kill himself for any other number of reasons? A lot of people lose their way after they leave their life structure they are used to, whether its coming home from being in the service, leaving your career, leaving prison, divorce, or leaving football. Seau appeared to have problems in his love life too. His suicide could have been for the same reasons a normal Joe commits suicide, and he just so happened to have brain damage that they discovered after the fact.

ak47

January 11th, 2013 at 12:38 AM ^

I get what you are saying but for me this isn't about seau in particular. Its using this news to spark a debate.  The only way they can detect CTE is when people donate their brains, very few people do this and a lot of them are NFL players.  Maybe this means CTE isn't actually caused by football and its just a poor sample or maybe it means that this is a large scale problem than can start as early as high school football but we don't know because we can't test it. I don't know enough about the science to answer those questions, I just want there to be a debate so somebody who can answer them is prompted to continue looking.

UMxWolverines

January 10th, 2013 at 11:58 PM ^

Why don't we just have the players wear bras? And instead of helmets they can wear tinfoil hats, because, you know, it's the future! Then we'll have a balloon instead of a ball, and whoever catches the balloon, tries to run while all the other players hug. How about we call it Sarcastacall?

TheGeneral

January 11th, 2013 at 12:01 AM ^

Everyone has always known football is dangerous, a CTE scan doesn't change that. Crossing the street is dangerous, going out at night is dangerous, riding a motorcycle is dangerous. We make choices, it's part of freedom. If we want to be safety nazis we should outlaw trans fat before worrying about football. Hell lets all bar our homes since it takes very little effort to break a window. We can pad every corner of every object, eliminate electricity because you know the accidents in homes stats, only allow healthy foods and drinks, no alcohol obviously, no tobacco products, everyone can be home schooled the bars will make the homes safe, we could only drive Volvos, all have home security systems, outlaw guns and all hand held weapons, curfews of course, hell every person should have to account for their whereabouts at all times, slip resistant flooring everywhere, same for the shoes, fire retardant clothing. We could go on and on.
Or we could simply say in a free country people need to take responsibility for the risks in which they choose to be involved.

JamieH

January 11th, 2013 at 12:07 AM ^

I'm not sure there IS a way to make a helmet that can really protect you from the repeated blows to the head that someone like a lineman takes.  You might be able to make something better that could mitigate the big blows--maybe something that actually had an exterior shell that slightly crumpled and absorbed some of the impact, but I think studies are saying that they are more concerned with the repeated small blows than they are with the one big knockout blow.

Of course, any helmet that wasn't rigid and was designed to take damage would be astronomically expensive for any high school program to use because they would go through so many of them, so that would probably never work.

 

The Wolf

January 11th, 2013 at 9:53 AM ^

One could very easily say the same thing about motor vehicles, then.  Is the risk of motor vehicle accidents an absolutely necessary part of life as a human being?  

Many other cultures would seem to say No, as well as many individuals in our very own culture.

ak47

January 11th, 2013 at 12:11 AM ^

Did I ever say ban football?  There are plenty of laws around car regulations and speed limits and other driving laws that make driving safer.  There can be laws and other regulations that help make football safer, I believe we should talk about possibilites because despite loving football there is something about paying to see large men attempt to hit each other as hard as possible for my enjoyment that seems a little off to me.

robmorren2

January 11th, 2013 at 12:51 AM ^

I'm not trying to belittle you or your points. However, all the facts are out now ... for players, parents, and coaches. At this point, it is purely a decision. All the facts are laid out. If you (or your child) plays football, they could potentially ruin their life. Every parent has to sign a permission slip. Every adult player can make their own choice. They aren't victims at this point, and guys like Brian Urlacher have said they would play even with brain damage risk and organ destroying pain medication. If you smoke, you can get cancer. If you eat fast food, you can get obese. If you play football, you can get brain injuries. The warning is on the box now. It's purely a choice. If Pop Warner and middle/high schools want to offer a flag football type alternative for kids, I have no problem with that. But there will always be parents that will sign off on kids beating the hell out of each other in real football, boxing, wrestling, MMA, or whatever. If you take it out of schools, people will make private leagues. You can't make the decision for people, and you can't take away hits in football. The majority of blows happens on the impact between Oline & Dline on every snap, and you can't change that without ending the sport or changing it completely.

Mr Miggle

January 11th, 2013 at 7:36 AM ^

because I'm having a hard time answering without insulting you. Saying that all the facts are out now is one of those most absurd statements I've ever seen on this board. Do you have any idea of why Seau's family wanted those tests done? The fact that these tests can now only be done post-mortem greatly limits how much we do know about CTE. There is a tremendous difference between knowing that a risk exists and quantifying it.

Nosce Te Ipsum

January 11th, 2013 at 10:45 AM ^

You're ak47. This is getting ridiculous. How many posters have multiple accounts on here? 

 

With reference to the discussion, I feel like the people who are dismissing this so easily are being extremely obtuse.  I am in the camp that is in favor of more research and people being given this kind of information before they allow their children to play. It's easy to say that people should know that playing a contact sport is bad for you. I understood that I could get hurt or have my bell rung. If I would have known that there could be degenerative effects that would impact my entire life then I never would have played. I'm sure that many fall in that camp too.

TheGhostofYost

January 11th, 2013 at 12:09 AM ^

Despite the downvotes, I think it's a fair question.  But I was an art major, so what the hell do I know about safety?

TheGhostofYost

January 11th, 2013 at 1:47 AM ^

I actually was.  Went to undergrad with a double major in both music performance and art.  Unfortunately, two years in the Middle East can really screw with your head.  I'm not the same person anymore, which is why I generally come across as a HUGE asshole on this site.  

Also, I don't know what TGOY why means, but if it is what I think it is, you are sorely mistaken. I am not The God of Yodeling.

justingoblue

January 11th, 2013 at 1:48 AM ^

It wasn't so much asshole/non-asshole; you just seem like a guy pretty well trained in forming/making/defending arguments. I would have pegged you for philosophy, maybe English or something else heavy on rhetoric and logic. Lawyer would have been another obvious choice, although that didn't cross my mind until just now.

Sorry to hear you feel you've changed in a way you don't like, by the way.

Edit: Damn, and here I was thinking you were the resident Yodeling guy...

TheGhostofYost

January 11th, 2013 at 2:07 AM ^

I applied to law school after I came back, and I'm in my third year as we speak.  The change wasn't horrible, just different.  I'm much more aggressive now, and less laid back/carefree.  Both have their advantages.  Honestly, one of the worst consequences is that I'm so intensely loyal to Michigan now that I get horribly, irrationally upset after every loss, as you have probably noticed.  I absolutely despise a Michigan loss.  Few things make put me in such a bad mood. 

Route66

January 11th, 2013 at 12:18 AM ^

I haven't chimed in on the blog in awhile but I am so passionate about this subject that I feel the need tonight.

Personal story time so skip if you think it might be lame. I am a 33 year old man who started playing football in 5th grade and ended after a 4-year career at a small DIII school here in Michigan.  I was a 3-year letterman and played those three years on the line.  I recently have battled a bought of depression, mood-swings and memory loss, although the memory loss has been a longer issue than depression or mood-swings.  The depression has required meds, but the funny thing is that I have what one would call a perfect life.  Smokin' hot and smart wife who is the bread-winner, fulfilling job, two beautiful and healthy kids and not much debt other than student loans and a mortgage. 

Depression happens for many reasons but it really does not run in my family and again, I have no reason to hate life or be disinterested.  I have always been a jovial guy but over the last year or so my moods have swung.  Like previously stated, my memory has always been weak but I have always chalked that up to being lazy about details.

What I am getting at is that I believe this Jr. Seau thing is no joke.  The game we love, play, and worship needs to change.  I don't want to lose this beautiful sport.  I learned 95% about being a husband, father and man on the football field with my coaches and teammates.  However, we have baby #3 on the way and if it is a boy(other two are girls), I will not let him play football.  That kills me to write, but something needs to change.

Again, I may not have CTE and what we know about it is very little, but you are lying to yourself if you think collisions in the game of football aren't damaging to the brain.

If there are any Dr.'s out there that would like to use my brain for scans I would be more than happy to donate my time and energy to help the progression of education with CTE and other collision related brain diseases.  I would, however, prefer the procedure where you can keep me alive. 

Blessings

ak47

January 11th, 2013 at 12:21 AM ^

Thanks for sharing, I'm hoping that people realize this is a call for a discussion not a dismisal of football, maybe I could have left out the part about exploitation because that rubs some people the wrong way but your story is why if nothing else there needs to be more research.  Good luck and congrats on the upcoming child.

Route66

January 11th, 2013 at 12:41 AM ^

This thread represents what's great about the Internet. Many opinions and some good discussion. People who can't see this as a valid discussion don't understand what football can do for you personally. We are losing great men for a reason that can be directly connected to something we can change.

turtleboy

January 11th, 2013 at 12:22 AM ^

Football was more dangerous than it is now. Knocking guys out cold was celebrated, and targeting hits to the head, and injuring guys out of the game was the general idea. Just looking at the highlight videos the other day of The Hitman John Lynch and i'm saying to myself: "that's a fine" "and that's a fine" "that one's a suspension" "oooh, that's a fine" yet he played only recently, and was one of my favorite players. Everybody used to lead with the helmet. Now you can't because we know how dangerous that can be, and the league penalizes such hits. Studies show a good portion of damage incurred comes from high school helmet bashing during games, and amongst teammates on the sidelines. Awareness campaigns are reducing that through education as well.

smwilliams

January 11th, 2013 at 12:28 AM ^

Some of the comments of the 'it's their choice', 'they get paid to batter their bodies', etc. is ignoring an obvious problem. Nobody playing football in the 70s, 80s, 90s knew how bad the risk of repeated head trauma leading to serious mental health issues was. A much larger percentage of the population smoked cigarettes until repeated research showed just how hazardous to your health smoking can be. Now, fewer and fewer people smoke because of said health risks.

Claiming nothing is wrong and nothing needs to change because people choose to play football dismisses the fact that few people realized anything was risky about playing football outside of the various physical maladies (and even those stories about guys in their 50s with degenerative knees, hips, etc. are somewhat recent). Football is a dangerous, dangerous game and medicine is allowing us to see exactly how dangerous it is.

It won't matter ten years from now, but I guarantee you more and more parents aren't going to let kids play football. 2000 years ago, the greatest civilization on Earth thought forcing two people to fight to the death was acceptable. Now, not so much.

I don't want to see football die, but there has to be a push for better helmet technology, weight restrictions, something to combat the growing size and speed of modern players.

natesezgoblue

January 11th, 2013 at 12:43 AM ^

who knows what hits actually casues CTE.  Is it the big hits? or is it the tackles and contact on every other play.  Theres no way to know what the exact cause is so theres no way to find the cure.  I think there was a article a few weeks ago that said that the brain rolling around in the skull actually caused more damge than the hits. 

Honestly the NFL doesnt give two craps about the players.  If they did they wouldnt allow them to wear 15 year old schutts just because they have better sightlnes. 

 

http://www.riddell.com/shop-riddell/helmet/riddell-360-youth-helmet/

Route66

January 11th, 2013 at 12:48 AM ^

Here is a blog article that I found on MGoBlog and found the facts to be interesting. Lineman had a much higher rate of collisions, therefore exposing them to a greater chance of brain damage. If you were to ask me who I thought would be the most damaged I would have said DB's and LB's.

http://joelvanderlugt.wordpress.com/2012/12/11/concussions/

natesezgoblue

January 11th, 2013 at 1:02 AM ^

thats the bullshit thing.  whens the last time you saw a flag thrown for a MLB hitting the center helmet to helmet?  The NFL wants to act like they're doing something.  They penalize the the big hits on the WR's. How many Wr's have been diagnosed with CTE compared to lineman? The fact is that the OL and DL take on the most damage. 

I would bet in arena football that the CTE cases are far fewer just because of the style of play.

gutnedawg

January 11th, 2013 at 12:50 AM ^

An autopsy conducted in 2010 on the brain of Owen Thomas, a 21-year-old junior lineman at the University of Pennsylvania who committed suicide, showed early stages of CTE, making him the youngest person to be diagnosed with the condition. Thomas was the second amateur football player diagnosed with CTE, after Mike Borich, who died at 42. The doctors who performed the autopsy indicated that they found no causal connection between the nascent CTE and Thomas's suicide. There were no records of Thomas missing any playing time due to concussion, but as a player who played hard and "loved to hit people," Thomas may have played through concussions and received thousands of subconcussive impacts on the brain.

this is from the CTE wiki page

ia4goblue

January 11th, 2013 at 12:59 AM ^

I tired of this subject just like im tired of people pretending to care about the health of people they don't know. Let people be informed and then let them live with the consequences of their own decisions good or bad. Anything less is just another excuss to tell people how to live their lives because you think you know better and you know what's good for them.