spoiler alert: i linked this
OT: John Kuester HAS to go
Joe Dumars has to go.
Lock the thread. Pasadenablue FTW.
until we used all of our cap space on fucking Ben Gordon and Charlie V. That was supposed to be the whole perk of the Chauncey trade... clean house, clear up space and sign good free agents. Except we didn't, and then signed a team full of roll players who don't fit together.
I have to admit I haven't followed them very closely since the Chauncey days, but I took issue with getting rid of Larry Brown, then Flip Saunders. What the hell was wrong with those two guys?
Thought the same thing with Carlisle.
I don't think either of those can be pinned on Joe D. Bill Davidson was pissed at Brown for turning his "medical leave" into a vacation and interviewing with other teams while coaching the Pistons. As for Saunders, the players just tuned him out after a while.
But the personnel decisions - those are another story.
But yeah, Joe D has to go. The goodwill for his trades for Big Ben and Rasheed has expired and been trumped significantly by the Darko miss, Chauncey trade and absolute waste of cap space on Gordon and Charlie V.
Larry Brown was talking with Cleveland about their vacant front office gig while coaching the Pistons in the Conference Finals. I mean there was no threat of him being fired. He had a safe gig. Mr. Davidson does not like people who are not loyal to him. His romancing with other teams was part of the baggage he brought to Detroit.
Flip lost the team. Ben Wallace refused to go into a game. Rasheed didn't listen to him. I mean, I liked him. He is a solid NBA head coach for sure. But Ben, Rasheed, Rip and Tayshaun are all crybabies. Looks at the number of T's Rip and Rasheed got. And Tayshaun is now sparring back and forther with the current coach. I don't know if they let that title get to their head or what, but those attitudes bring a team down.
they arent role players. they're all need the ball. they're all shooters.
CV - shooter
Rip - shooter
gordon - shooter
even our point guards aren't true distributors - they're slashers and scorers.
its a shitshow.
But my point remains the same. Dumars seriously effed this up, yo.
it IS FUBAR. its actually worse than having a bunch of role players. at least role players know how to play in a team. these guys are all bball prima donnas. its awful.
he signed TMac. Does not compute.
The T-Mac thing is nothing. He is on a very small one year contract. If he bounces back from injury it is a great move, if he doesn't it is a no move. It doesn't hurt them at all. In fact it is an expiring contract (even though it is very small). And if he bounces back big he would be a great trade asset.
...that Detroit is what it is. It's not a prime free agent spot in hoops. They play way out in Auburn Hills and it's cold here with no nightlife. Chicago, NYC, LA, Miami (WTF???) and Dallas (Big Spender Cuban) are more prime locations for those guys. Look at where Carmelo wants to go.
So Joe realized he has to go for these mid-range guys (Charlie V. and Gordon) and guys needing to prove something (T-Mac). FWIW, T-Mac has shown to be an excellent acquisition.
As soon as they finally lock down a deal to sell the team, they're going to move them to downtown detroit. I hope. It's not NY or LA or even Bratislava but it should help things.
We've got some decent young guys in Jerebko, Daye, and Monroe. I think as soon as the team is sold and a new coach is hired, they can clean house and have a short rebuilding period with any luck.
c'mon show him sum love, well at least until we see what his son can do
Read that link...i believe you are wrong..he has made mistakes but time and time again corrects them.
The Pistons have to go.
Bring on spring ball! Blitzes, corners NOT playing 10 yards off the receiver, and a 4-3!
I'd say half our roster has to go as well....
He was the "mastermind" behind the Cleveland offense.... I mean who could have ever come up with "Give Lebron the ball". Obviously this guy is a basketball genius.
Sadly until the team gets new ownership Kuester and Joe D's jobs are safe.
Rip has to go.
We can't give him away. Literally.
it could be worse
Move the Pistons to Vegas.
Still bitter/HORRIBLY depressed about the brawl.. fuck the Pistons.. especially Ben Wallace and John Greene. Ron Artest is an idiot, I know.. Neg away.
We would, but even the omnipresent creator doesn't give two shits about the Pacers.
The Malice in the Palace was one of the greatest things I've ever seen on live TV. I see absolutely no reason to be depressed about it, it was amazing!
That being said, sometimes I forget that the Pacers exist.
How'd you like getting tayshauned back in '04?
Indiana still has a pro basketball team? Who knew?
well, if we fire him this quickly that will be what...6 coaches in the last 10 years? no one is gonna wanna come here.
and ya, idk why rip didnt play tonight
RIP hasn't played in something like 4 games now (forgive me if not exactly accurate but know its close). I have heard it is because he is the key in the Carmelo deal to the Nets, and if he gets hurt or something we would be stuck with his 12 million dollar contract for the rest of the year.
ya but the deal fell through earlier today. hes gonna be traded,just dont know to whom or for whom
because the Pistons were holding him out just in case the Carmelo to NJ deal went through. Now that the Nets nixed on the deal, Detroit's stuck with him until they can find someone to take him. I'll give you one guess as to whether that will happen.
Team needs a point guard and a defensive center. I love Greg Monroe - great pick. Austin Daye is going to be a very special player. Outside of Tayshaun and RIp - this is a very young team.
Point guard, defensive center, and figure out who you want as your primary shooting guard (stuckey or gordon).
Kuester is stuck with an odd line up and he is trying to make it work. Once rip and tayshaun are gone - this team becomes infinitely more defined.
Pardon my french but Mrs. Davidson is a trash bag gold digging whore who needs to stop expecting $400M and drop the team. She pissed off Ilitch and now nothing has happened since Gores emerged as the new bidder.
Sorry to Mr. D for having to see his team turn to ruin like this.
Definitely agree that Kuester may need to leave, but so does Dumars. He has started to make more and more questionable decisions, and it's really hurting the organization for the long run.
I assure you Dumars can't any worse than his former teammate Isiah.
He could bring back the teal jerseys...
Q is just dealing with the terrible hand he was dealt. Dumars can't make moves because he doesn't really have an owner. Yeah, Joe D really screwed up with BG and Charlie V. Really, really, really screwed up. Right now he can't do anything to fix it though, because he doesn't have an owner that will authorize changes to the payroll. Once the team gets sold, then you can make a judgement on Q.
I have to go. Save my seat, bro. (Where did you say the loo was?)
What exactly is the point of the draft lottery when it's now heavily weighted toward the worst teams? When it was first started, every non-playoff team had the same odds, so as to discourage tanking. Now it's so weighted that tanking still makes sense.
Joe D gets a last mulligan. He built our Conference Finals teams from nothing. Lately he has been garbage (in a "what have you done for me lately league), but I'd still give him one more shot with a new coach. Kuester needs to go soon though. He has that locker room incredibly divided right now.
Get a top 5 pick... then fire him. I gave up on this season after the first five games.
As a Bulls fan I take great joy in having seen the Knicks under Isiah Thomas and the Pistons recently.
Those Charlie V and Ben Gordon signings were indefensible. The fact is, you need a top 10 guy surrounded by good to above average system players or 2 guys in that 11-25 range with solid role players to even think about contending. Wasting your cap space on two shoot-first dudes who are below average in every other facet of the game is idiotic.
Plus, he botched that Darko pick.
Not sure why he still gets a free pass from the media for the most part.
I really don't even pay attention to it until 2nd round of playoffs....I think growing up in the 80's I got spoiled with bird, magic, gnarles b, isiah, MJ and the great TEAMS they were on...todays NBA with rare exceptions (spurs and celtics maybe) is lazy basketball with little effort and too much one on one iso plays. So my point is I am apathetic towards the 'stones and their coach. A lockout may help change the game?
Hell I'm only a junior in high school and I don't even hardly watch the NBA anymore! Besides Michigan football I watched the Red Wings religiously through late elementary school. The Pistons were my 2nd favorite, I watched them but not as much as the Red Wings in 04. But when the playoffs came I watched all of it! Still can't believe how they dominated the Lakers! Then 05 came around and the NHL had the lockout, so I couldn't watch the wings so I watched the Pistons religiously. Was devastated when they lost in the championship 4-3. And I don't think my fandom for the Pistons/NBA has ever been the same since Robert Horry's shot.
The NBA was in its prime during the 80s and 90s. I used to watch all of the games whenever I could but nowadays its pretty much torture to watch. I wish that there was a relegation and promotion set-up like in the EPL. The top teams will play each other instead of watching waterdowned games. Maybe have four divisions/leagues with 16 teams each. We could have single elimination/or aggregate home and away tourneys, the normal playoff schedule, and games outside of the NBA.
should have never been hired- period.
Has nothing to do with the fact that this one of the worst assembled rosters in the NBA, and all our bargaining chips in trades farted passed their expiration 2 years ago.
you cant tell me tayshaun is past his prime.
Tayshaun is the same player he's been since his sophmore season. Not bad, not great, and far too expensive.
So maybe he's not past his prime. But his "prime" isn't that glorious in the first place.
Also, Tayshaun's worth on the block has dropped considerably in the last couple years, as has RIP's. If they were going to blow up the team, they should've done it when they had some attractive pieces. Now they have shit.
He is an expiring contract which in the NBA is GOLD Jerry, GOLD. Odds are he gets traded to a contended around the deadline. A team in need of a SF (Like Dallas now that Butler is out). Sure Prince isn't as good as he was, but he has a Gold Medal and a Championship Ring, which is more than Lebron and many others.
I am merely talking about trade value. A few years ago, when the Pistons were competing on the national stage Prince was a very attractive player to have, and probably could have lured a couple very solid young players. Now, like you said, he is merely a piece for a contending team, and not nearly as valuable in the trade market in terms of pull.
I agreed he isn't as attractive now; however, when we wants to be he can be great. Ever since billups left (hell even when big ben left the first time) it was clear he didn't care as much. When you have a new coach each year i'm sure it sucks and you lose the will to play 110%. Which is crap, but Prince has always been my favorite piston ever since "The Block". His defense has yes gone down but he is still and good defensive option (think of shane battier). When you are like him and one of the number one options is tough to constantly be as good when you aren't a real superstar. However, if in a place where he is the #3 or #4 option (say Dallas) he will excel. As a pistons fan I don't want him gone because I've gotten so attached and want to see his #22 in the rafters at The Palace (hopefully covering up the stupid banners for sellouts of concerts for Kid rock and Bon Jovi, no disrespect to either but come on). As a Tayshaun fan I want him gone so he can him another championship as long as it isn't on the Bulls, Heat , or Celtics. I really blame this teams situation on Mrs. D and Larry Brown. Had brown not bailed for NY we would have been way better off.
Prince is still a very good player, he just doesn't give a shit anymore. Him, Ben Wallace, and Rip have made public comments time after time about how unhappy/dissatisfied they are with the current situation. They've all but stated on record that their hearts aren't in it.
There is no quick fix for this team, unfortunately, but we need to get the older guys out of there. Greg Monroe looks good.
I posted a thread about firing Dumars last year and got negged a bit for it. Now it's great to see the MGoCommunity echo my sentiments a year later. Maybe the new owner will have the balls to fire Joey D (great player, terreble executive for the past 3-5 years). 2 back to back 50 wins should be rewarded with a raise and not grounds for firing someone.
Joe D has made a few errors yes but he is also the reason we won a championship (the only one in the past decade w/o a superstar) and the only reason we had such a great run of success. Now superstars are teaming up with 2 on a team (this is a jab at chris bosh who is NOT a superstar). Yes he shouldn't have signed Charlie V and Ben Gordon. But what superstar would come here? sure we could have waited and gotten Boozer, but no chance any superstar comes to the D except through the draft.
The worse thing about the "fire Joe D" clan is them bringing up Darko. That is the worse excuse possible. If you think that is all Dumars fault you are oblivious to the NBA. everyone and their mom had Darko the #2 pick after LeBron (Sum even had him above LeBron). I blame Two people for the down fall. Mrs. D who needs to just sell the team already and Larry Brown, who bailed on us for NY.
Could the central be the worst division in basketball this year with only one team above .500
Kuester is absolutely clueless. The only player I want to keep for the future is Monroe. I could do without the rest. Watching this team play like crap makes me sick. F you Karen Davidson.
jhackney's nuke video when you need it? That's what needs to happen to the Pistons: nuke the roster. It's time to start over again
Kuester or GERG?
Yeah that Billups trade killed the Pistons
That team needs to rebuild again, it'll be several years before Deeeeeetroit Basketball is relevant again
When Joe got Atkins and Big Ben for someone who paralyzed the Orlando Magic's cap for the next seven years, and then got Billups and Rip in more one-sided trades, every GM in the league became afraid of him and started making only ridiculous lowball offers from that point on. Combined with the Darko Debacle and the fact that Detroit is not a preferred destination for FA's, it has been a struggle for him ever since.
Joe was correct in wanting to dismantle the aging core of his team, but his approach turned out to be wrong. Instead of just blowing it up, starting over, and guaranteeing himself at least two lottery picks, he tried to improve on the fly. It didn't work.
I think he should give Tom Izzo an offer he can't refuse and a bunch of young players. They could have a really nice lottery pick this year. That, along with maybe a 5 year, $35 million contract with two more option years built in, may entice Izzo to sign a "retirement contract" with the Pistons.
It would give him enough time to build a young team into a champion and "retire on top." It would also cause a lot of angst in EL. Sounds like a win-win.
Well tonight was not at all Kuester's fault. In late game situations there is nobody to go to so instead they turn to Tayshaun I mean Stuckey, I mean Gordon, oops the shot clock went off.
The whole team needs to be revamped. We have no consistency in the starting lineup, we have no team chemistry, and we have no team direction. I would start by trading Tayshaun and Rip for whatever we can get. They'll be better elsewhere plus they don't want to play here. Dumars has always been a poor drafter too. I really don't understand why he disassembled the 2004 team. Obviously they got old, but the team blue print worked.
He shouldn't have fired LB, then fired Flip three years later after winning 64, 53, and 59 games. Ughhhh
Larry Brown left. Sure he was "fired" but he wanted NY and Bill Davidson wanted him out because he was obviously bailing on the team. Going on medical leave when it was really a vacation. When your owner tells you to do something you do it. That isn't Dumars Fault. And with Flip...He lost control of the locker room. That's what happens when you have a headcase like Sheed. But it was obvious he lost control and the players had no respect for him.
Seriously? Tayshaun at 23, Stuckey at 15, Daye at 15, Afflalo at 27, Maxiell at 26, Okur at 37...don't blame the drafting. If you are bringing up the Darko bullshit that is a terrible reason. Look back at all the mock drafts and rankings. #1: Lebron #2 Darko...that was it...Some teams even had Darko ahead of Lebron. (i don't like to go into TheKnowledge format of all caps but...) EVERY TEAM THOUGHT DARKO WAS THE NEXT GREAT EUROPEAN BIG WHO COULD SHOOT....EVERY TEAM. Sure we would have been better off with wade or bosh or carmelo...but of those 3 the only options were bosh. Do you know how much everyone would have ripped him apart had he taken Bosh over wade, melo, and darko (at the time...now yeah would have been good but then?). Also we take Bosh we never trade for Sheed and problem never win a championship. Sorry but I'll take that darko draft with a championship belt plus a horrid horry 3 to lose another 'ship in the finals over bosh (who is NOT a superstar) who probably would have bolted at some point, or Brown wouldn't have even played. What hurt darko the most was Larry Brown's displeasure of playing a rookie (especially one who changes his hair color every week). So please everyone read Bill Simmons Book of Basketball. He has a long chapter about that draft and how we probably wouldn't have won the title. Once you read that hopefully you will quit bitching about the darko "debacle"
Yeah I'd say he's a poor drafter. I agree with you on the Darko thing; he was a "can't miss" player at the time and everything worked out just fine. But he still ended up sucking. The thing that gets me is that Dumars hasn't drafted a single all-star player in 10 years. Sure Tayshaun is an above average SF and Jerebko had a good rookie year but even though I really like Max, he doesn't really play. Memo is playing elsewhere, Afflalo is elsewhere, Cleaves was a bust, Rodney White was a bust, Stuckey is alright. Joe D has to draft someone that becomes a top player before I consider him a good drafter.
However, I think Joe D is an excellent trader. Even though his draft choices haven't worked out, he has been able to trade them for more draft picks (Darko for the pick we used on Stuckey). I love Joe D but ever since the Chauncey trade I've lost faith in him as GM. You can blame it on not having an owner, but thats still not a good enough reason for me to have a team thats this dysfunctional.
it is tough to draft a superstar when you make the conference finals for what 5 or 6 years in a row resulting in a late first round draft pick. you don't see a superstar getting draft at 28th overall. That just doesn't happen. We haven't had a lottery pick since darko. It resulted in the 7th pick and we got greg monroe who has had like 5 straight double doubles or near that. You can't complain about us sucking and not having a superstar when we haven't had the chance to draft in the top 10 (minus last year) since 2001.
I see what you're saying and I respect your view, but I think that to be considered a good drafter and a good GM, you have to be able to draft. Look at San Antonio, they are always good but every couple of years they draft a guy late that turns out to be a contributing player such as Manu, Tony Parker, George Hill, DeJuan Blair etc.
I'm not a huge fan of the NBA and I really dislike the NBA draft, but I'm all about being able to draft. Drafting is how you build teams. Especially when you have 15 players on your team and you draft two new players every year.
And as we saw with the 2004 team, you don't need to draft superstars; just players that play well together. The Pistons were great for those few years, but it certainly wasn't because of Joe D's drafting.
that is a good article...he has made draft mistakes but also good picks too. sure some of those guys aren't here (okur) but he did draft him. It is tough for teams to consistently draft well late. Lakers? Sure they hit homeruns on Manu and parker, but I think duncan has a lot to do with their success. Jury is still out for me with Blair.
Thanks for taking Ben Gordan off our hands. There was a thread up after you guys signed him about how excited many of you were. I said thanks fir taking this chucker off our hands so Derrick Rose can do his thing.
The Pistons roster is a pure mess. No matter who the coach is.
Dumars is getting a lot of hate, but where else in the NBA can you see five shooting guards on the floor at the same time?
seems like we have too many "3" forwards prince,daye, jerebko among others. i realize its a versatile postion but we dont need 5 of them. we need a dominant big man and a true point giard to begin to right this ship
For one Jerebko is out for the season so that doesn't matter. Also, last year he started at the 4. As has Daye. All three can play the 3 or the 4.
they may be able to play as a 4 but they lack size big time, compared to most 4's our guys look like twigs. when we have had success we had stocky guys that could bang bodies in the the post.. Sheed mcdyess okur etc when we have little guys we dont jerebko, darko daye etc
Just because they are twigs doesn't mean they aren't reasonable answers at the 4. Case in point: Zack Novak
That Darko pick was their undoing for keeping a winning team together past the run of trips to the Eastern Conference finals where they met their ceiling until Billups was traded.
And then they failed to reload, so here we're left with a crap lineup and nothing of value to trade. Welcome back to late-90's Pistons basketball, but without the teal and flaming horsehead.
The darko pick was the year before we won it all. Had we not drafted him who would we have taken? Taking bosh there would have been a H U G E gamble. We didn't need wade or melo with rip and tay (especially tay because it was his 2nd or 3rd year). Had we not drafted him and taken bosh you can say good bye to trading for sheed and probably goodbye to that championship.