OT: Joe Dumars

Submitted by AKMuskie on

Aside from winning a championship as the president of basketball associations and being a part of the Bad Boys', since 2004's glorious championship over the Lakers, all Dumars has done is damage the image of Detroit basketball. Taking Darko in the NBA Draft when 'Melo, Chris Bosh, and D-Wade were available was one thing, but failing to keep coach Larry Brown and firing Carlisle and Flip Saunders when they were still playoff contenders is another. Shouldn't this guy be under fire, and who is the current owner that can do so? What does the MGoCommunity think about this guy?

Because of his ill-advised hires only 2 of Detroit's 4 professional sports teams are currently winning franchises. Dee-troit basketball needs to go back to prominence now...and a good start would be to fire this guy. Hiring unproven coaches is not going to help this organization. Oh, and did I mention trading Chauncey "Mr. Big Shot" Billups for a washed-up Alllen verson? He seems to have lost his credibility.

EDIT: I am not saying he is a terrible GM. He hasn't, however, fulfilled his duties the last couple of seasons.

QVIST

March 24th, 2010 at 1:13 AM ^

The Billups trade was to free up cap space. Unfortunately, he squandered that space this past off-season.

Before your head asplodes, don't forget these trades:
* Grant Hill, traded for Chucky Atkins and Ben Wallace in 2000.
* Jerry Stackhouse, traded for Richard Hamilton in 2002.
*Zeljko Rebraca, Bob Sura, Chucky Atkins, Lindsey Hunter and two first round picks, traded for Rasheed Wallace and Mike James in 2004; Hunter would return to the team a week later.

Those trades were crucial for the several consecutive playoff runs. This guy knows what he's doing. Yeah, the Curry hire sucked, and this one looks like it sucks, but he's done a ton...And he got rid of the teal look.

Super J

March 24th, 2010 at 1:13 AM ^

If he would have traded Chauncey "Mr. Big Shot" Billups for someone who is not a degenerate alcoholic gambler would have been nice plus to Joe's resume.

Firstbase

March 24th, 2010 at 1:21 AM ^

...the Darko draft pick was a HUGE gamble when Carmelo was available and the Billups trade was not only fatally flawed, but unforgivable (salary cap notwithstanding).

Matt Millenosis is apparently contagious.

jmblue

March 24th, 2010 at 7:52 AM ^

Every GM in the league would have drafted Darko second. He was widely considered the best European prospect ever. This was not considered a risky pick at the time. What's annoying is that a lot of the same reporters who give Dumars grief for the pick now are the exact same ones who lauded him for it in '03.

shoes untied

March 24th, 2010 at 11:17 AM ^

that first line alone sums it up. Every single GM wanted Darko (a few wanted him over LeBron but i forget which ones). Also, Who would they have taken? Melo? No not with Prince. Had we taken melo we would have never traded for sheed and probably not won in 04 (if anyone had read Bill Simmon's book you will look at his detailed analysis of this). Wade was a question mark. and had they taken Bosh they would have been ripped into shreds the first years by analysts. Darko had to be the pick. That time it was all about European love and the thought of maybe having a better rebounding version of Dirk

wishitwas97

March 24th, 2010 at 1:32 AM ^

getting to the Eastern Conference Finals 7 consecutive times, not good enough for you? How about getting a NBA title? Is that not good enough for you?

Granted he have made few bad moves, but he's not a terrible GM. He helped turned around the Pistons franchise into a consistent winner, you can't always expect that to happen forever. Every team goes through the rebuilding phase.

Here's to hoping that the Pistons somehow winning the Lottery and get John Wall so Stuckey can move to SG where he should have been playing right from the start.

AKMuskie

March 24th, 2010 at 10:11 AM ^

I never said he was terrible. I'm just basing my argument on his last two hires, and he's fired some really good coaches. I mentioned the NBA title, and the 7 consecutive conference finals is nice, but if the Pistons don't make the playoffs in the next 2-3 years it should be time to give him the boot. He was nice in his prime.

wishitwas97

March 24th, 2010 at 10:19 AM ^

make the playoff in the next 2-3 years is harsh. Dumars deserve better than that. Let him have 4-5 years of rebuilding to see what he can get out of it. Granted that he screwed up with 2 big contracts with Gordon and Villaneuva in the last off-season. Maybe both of them will finally mesh next season and the Pistons will be much better.

The Pistons need a true PG bad. Stuckey and Bynum are a combo guard who is not really suited for PG. John Wall is probably the only viable PG option in the top 7 pick slot. Yes, Eric Bledsoe could be part of the argument but the fact is he hasn't really play PG all that much because of John Wall. Bledsoe has potential though and he is very explosive and quick. The Pistons have to hope that they get really really lucky in the lottery and get #1 overall.

wishitwas97

March 24th, 2010 at 2:44 PM ^

the Pistons fans have been spoiled with the great run with the core of Billups, Rip, Tay and Sheed(plus Big Ben too). No franchise has ever done it in modern era so it's something to be proud of even though we only netted 1 championship.

BlueFish

March 24th, 2010 at 10:32 AM ^

75% of the posters on this board probably watch more Pistons b-ball than I do. However, I *do* know that Stuckey isn't a great shooter. Season stats:

0.407 FG%, 0.217 3PT%

Excluding Chucky Atkins, this FG% qualifies for dead last on the team. Perhaps this is attributable to his PG responsibilities, but it's definitely not good.

For his career, he's 0.418 and 0.258.

In summary, this is not SG material.

While I wouldn't turn down the opportunity to take John Wall, Stuckey will never supplant Gordon or Rip as our SG.

MaizeAndBlueWahoo

March 24th, 2010 at 6:56 AM ^

I still do not fault him for the Darko pick. All the same media types that laugh about that were gushing over the skills Darko had coming in. As were scouts. The gapingest hole in the Pistons lineup at the time was a skilled big man who could score and do everything. And one was there for the taking.

Joe D. knows what he's doing.

jmblue

March 24th, 2010 at 8:02 AM ^

but failing to keep coach Larry Brown and firing Carlisle and Flip Saunders when they were still playoff contenders is another.

Let's review the facts about these. Dumars fired Carlisle in 2003 because Brown was available. Brown is a very good coach; I don't think you can reasonably criticize this decision.

But then, in 2004-05, Larry Brown took a page from George Costanza and did everything he could to get fired. He took two medical leaves of absence even as doctors told the Pistons he was fine. He openly flirted with other teams while the postseason was going on. Not to mention that he refused to do a bunch of PR stuff (like meet with suite renters) that is customary for the job. Bill Davidson was massively pissed off, and rightly so. All indications are that Davidson pushed for the firing. If Dumars had refused to fire Brown, Davidson might have fired him.

Flip Saunders was not respected in the Piston locker room. Every postseason there was a major blowup. It was not a healthy situation. He needed to be let go. (Granted, Michael Curry was not the right guy to replace him.)

Maize.Blue Wagner

March 24th, 2010 at 9:21 AM ^

Saunders still hasn't proven that he can control a locker room in his time at Washington. Though, he probably was coming into a pretty toxic situation there. From what I remember of the off-season, he was supposed to be the offensive mind to make the Wizards an Eastern power, but this year has been a disaster.

bronxblue

March 24th, 2010 at 7:59 AM ^

While Detroit has been experiencing a downswing recently, this is still a team that was the gold-standard for years, and still has a decent nucleus. Brown was going to leave when he did, and Carlisle and Flip both had flaws that many (not just Dumars) felt needed to be addressed. Sure, trading Billups was tough, but he still snagged massive cap room (which he proceeded to waste) for a player that is on the downturn of his career. I'm not ready to can Duymars.

Tater

March 24th, 2010 at 8:16 AM ^

The Darko Debacle was possibly the worst pick in the history of Detroit drafts in any sport. Carmelo Anthony was the consensus second pick in the draft. Nobody could have known Wade would be as good as he was (four other teams passed on him after Detroit), but 'Melo was the correct pick in the number two slot. The Darko Debacle probably cost the Pistons at least one more championship and maybe two more.

On the good side of the ledger, though, Joe Dumars has been directly involved in every NBA Championship the Pistons have won in their entire history as a franchise. Getting Atkins and Wallace for Hill's signing rights might turn out to have been the best theft in the history of the NBA. Also, the Stack for Rip trade was a brilliant move.

So, Joe has done some things great and some really bad. I think Joe's current problem is that he traded so well in the beginning that all GM's are wary of trading with him and everyone lowballs him as a means of "protecting" themselves.

I think Joe can still get the job done one more time. Counting 1990, the Pistons have won three championships in the last twenty-one seasons. With thirty teams in the league, the mathematical odds are one every thirty years. Joe is definitely ahead of the game.

MaizeAndBlueWahoo

March 24th, 2010 at 9:15 AM ^

Carmelo Anthony was the consensus second pick in the draft.

See, that's the kind of revisionist history I mean. Everyone treats the Darko pick as Joe D. going totally against conventional wisdom and getting burned. It's all wrong.

- ESPN called him "Europe's LeBron James."
- SI said: "Given their need for help in the frontcourt, it’s hard to argue with Joe Dumars for taking Milicic over Anthony," and gave the Pistons the highest grade of the draft.

Everyone acts like Joe D. should have known from the very beginning, but there was nobody - and I mean absolutely, positively nobody, scouts, NBA personnel people, media types - who didn't think Darko would be an absolute stud.

JeepinBen

March 24th, 2010 at 8:43 AM ^

I'm not a pistons fan by any means, but yeah, he put together a great group, that made the ECFs 7 years in a row. That's amazing.

That said, his deals recently were awful. This past offseason he spent $100 Million on players... who come off the bench? Really? Charlie V was worth $45 million? And he's not good enough to start. I understand paying Ben Gordon a little more, but... you have so many tiny shooting guards already. Gordon, Hamilton, Stuckey, Bynum - they're all little 2 guards. I mean LITTLE.

To take a couple quotes from Simmons: "It's hard to believe that this team was put together on purpose." and "Bucks GM John Hammond has made three great moves in the past year: the Salmons trade, gambling on Brandon Jennings at No. 10 in the NBA draft and signing Delfino for nothing this past summer. (Not only does Delfino fill up the stat sheet, play both swing spots and give you solid D, but he also has a giant tattoo of a lizard on his left shoulder that looks cool in HD. There's a lot to like.) Meanwhile, Joe Dumars ran the Pistons into the ground in the 18 months after Hammond bolted Detroit for Milwaukee. Were the two events related? Hmmmmmm."

JeepinBen

March 24th, 2010 at 2:01 PM ^

ESPN actually lists rip at 6'7", could have fooled me. It also lists BG at 6'3", when in reality he's about 6'.

Spent a little time on google images and i guess rip is about Kobe sized...

I stand corrected, but i still really don't think of him as a "big" guard... probably cuz he's so thin

jmblue

March 24th, 2010 at 8:27 PM ^

Bill Simmons seems to have something against Dumars. He's been bashing Joe D for years, since long before the Pistons fell apart. Even in 2004 he was giving him grief over Darko.

Ben Gordon was a bad signing, but I don't understand why people are up in arms about Villanueva. He was not a big-money signing. He signed for the mid-level exception. You aren't going to get a franchise player for that money. To get 12 and 5 a night for that amount isn't bad at all.

hackattack13

March 24th, 2010 at 8:56 AM ^

"Because of him only 2 of Detroit's 4 professional sports teams are currently winning franchises."

I dont think we can blame him for the Lions so wouldn't he only be responsible for one team not being winning? Also its not like he instigated a trade that put us over the top to win the championship and almost win multiple others

st barth

March 24th, 2010 at 9:35 AM ^

The man has been directly involved in Detroit's only three championships. With a little bit of luck he might easily have two or three more rings...but that also just goes to show how difficult it is to win a title. Even with a great team it's far less than a 50-50 proposition.

Regarding Darko, I don't think the issue is with the pick so much as the team's inability to develop the talent that he had. Carmelo Anthony would have been the obvious choice if the Pistons didn't already have Tayshaun Prince at that position. With a veteran team already in place to compete for championships it definitely seemed that the Pistons had the luxury to draft someone who might need a couple years of development (remember Darko was barely 18 years old when drafted). A 7ft tall teenager who could shoot 3 pointers had the potential to be a game-changing player. The upside was worth the risk given the circumstances. He's still only 24 now and if things had gone according to plan then he might very well have been anchoring another era of great Pistons teams. Personally, I'm not familiar enough with the situation to know if the lack of development was Larry Brown's fault or Darko's. Probably both are responsible but that is just me (as an average fan) speculating blindly.

It's also pure conjecture to suggest that Carmelo would have fit in well and been a benefit to the team. It's just as possible that he would have struggled to gain playing time under Larry Brown and become frustrated (like Darko) and eventually been traded as well. Of course, we'll never know.

If there is really a lesson to be learned in all of this it's that championship quality teams (such as the Pistons were at the time of Darko's draft) probably shouldn't be be winning top lottery picks to begin with. They didn't need the #2 pick then and it ended up being some kind of curse in disguise rather than a piece of good fortune.

GoBlogSparty

March 24th, 2010 at 9:53 AM ^

He's made some GREAT moves over the years, but a one move that he failed to do stick out to me as weaknesses:

He didn't blow up the core a year or 2 earlier. 2 years ago, Rip and Tay had significantly higher trade values. He was far too stubborn in his ways and wanted to have the same personnel establish a dynasty. This worked pretty well for 6-7 years but he didn't realize at the end of the Lebron James 1 vs. 5 massacre that the time had come to dismantle the team and ship some pieces out. Now he's stuck with deadweight while the rest of the east is getting better. He's built this team in the past, but I'm not too sure if he'll have what it takes to do it again. Back then, there were no established powers in the East. Now, we will be competing against Lebron and Dwight Howard.

jsquigg

March 24th, 2010 at 1:52 PM ^

The guy put together a group of guys who led Detroit to one of their best eras in their history. Has he made some questionable moves of late? Yes, but let's not forget that few superstars are clamoring to play in Detroit. Also, as bad as Villanueva and Gordon have worked out, the media and fans would have been outraged if he had done nothing until this off season.