OT - Joe Dumars to Resign
WDIV just reported that Joe Dumars is resigining. Not exactly a shock.
Win Shares are not entirely without value, and considering most scouts agree KCP is a relatively good defender, while Burke is a very poor defender, they may not be without merit in this instance.
Give KCP Burke's minutes, FGA per game, stick him onto a team where he is the number 1 or 2 option offensively, and his raw offensive numbers would greatly improve. It's all relative.
Also, seeing as you've brought up OWS being a good stat, KCP's OWS is higher than Burkes (.9 to .7) despite Burke having played 600 more minutes.
Dude you did it again. Used 1 stat. Win shares. That's all you have. And win shares isn't that good.
What about PER? Burke wins. 3 point percentage? Burke wins. I could go on and on.
But there's no point in arguing with you. All you do is shit on Burke and defend the Pistons. That's your thing on mgoblog. I get it.
You seem a little too emotionally invested in this argument.
I'm sorry, but the use of one stat to shit on Burke (which he does literally every time this comes up) bothers me.
Neg away.
Have you been negged a great deal in this thread or something?
I'm seriously beginning to question your perception of reality.
PER doesn't take into account defense and values volume scoring too much.
KCP has higher TS% and eFG%, which are better metrics for evaluating a player's scoring efficiency than simply stating 3pt% or FG%.
Your argument is based on emotions and feelings. I get that. I wanted the Pistons to draft Burke but they didn't. Oh well. Too bad. It's time to move on.
I haven't shitted on Burke. You're just such a homer you paint anything less than the most glowing reviews as "shitting on Burke."
Nuance is your friend.
I don't think he's arguing that Win Shares alone proves KCP is better than Burke, but it is at least an attempt to quantify offensive and defensive value. And people around here keep talking about Burke as if his pro career has been the same as his college career, and the facts haven't borne that out one iota.
Thank you. The fact that he can't understand this is a sad.
Ignoring the fact that the "SUX/GOAT" is a strawman, what do you expect people to talk about?
Dumars has been bad. No getting around that. Haven't won over 40% of their games in the last 5 years. Charlie V. Ben Gordon. Josh Smith. Mistake after mistake. For what I've heard he's a good guy, but man, he's been a pitiful GM. He had to go.
KCP has also been bad. Very bad. He was supposed to be a nice 3 point shooter and he's shot 31% (which is lower than Burke FWIW). We now have a full season of sample. 31% is very bad. If he was so good or his defense was so "game changing" he'd play more than 13 minutes a game (including single digits on a lot of nights). Hell, the season is LOST, nothing to play for, and he still can't get minutes on this garbage team.
Burke has not been all that great, but he has not been nearly as bad as you make it seem sometimes. Are his win shares high? No, but they aren't going to be. The offense around him is bad and the defense is even worse. That hurts his win shares. Defense win shares is calculated based on points allowed while on the court. It's like +/- in hockey. It's dependent on others and thus, pretty much crap. Using one stat to judge a player is not smart, in any sport. Especially defensive win shares. Burke is still a Top 5 rookie in the league and he'll put up better numbers when he has a real team around him, because that's how it works.
Burke and KCP have both been pretty poor shooters, but with the major caveat that Burke drives the Utah offense and can look for his shoot WAY more than KCP. And there can be lots of reasons why rookies don't see much playing time beyond "earning" it. It's a lost season and the team seems to have a couple of egos that need to be massaged, and since you can only roll 5 out at a time I'm not surprised KCP hasn't seen major minutes.
And stop dismissing some stats that don't support your story while trumpetting others. Yes, Win Shares aren't great, but it is a crude estimate that helps to provide some information. Burke has a usage rate of 21%; KCP is around 14%. That's a pretty big difference, compounded by Burke playing 600 more minutes.
Burke has been fine this year, but being a top 5 rookie from one of the worst draft classes in recent history isn't some amazing accomplishment. He's had an okay rookie year, and I suspect he'll improve a bit, but this chasm of quality between KCP and Burke people keep arguing over seems really hollow.
So KCP is a very bad player whose bad season is proof he will always be bad? We have enough of a sample size to determine just how bad he is, and all of the stats illustrating he may have not been quite as bad as everyone's making him out to be can be casually dismissed out of hand. It's over for him, even though he was stuck in a shitty situation on a shitty team. It doesn't matter.
While Burke's bad year isn't really that bad. I'm being unfair to Burke. He's actually a lot better than the numbers suggest. If only all of these mitigating factors weren't conspiring to make him look worse than he actually is. We need to just wait and give him time to develop and he will get a lot better. Sure he's on a shitty team, stuck in a shitty situation, but that's just means he has that much more room to improve and will be that much better!
This is about as one sided as you can get, but I'm the guy using a straw man argument here? Was there no cognitive dissonance what so ever when you wrote this post?
You actually just strawmaned again.
I did not say it was over for KCP. I said he has been bad and getting no playing time. Once again, you manipulated my argument to say "It's over for him".
My argument is that outside of win shares (which are for the most part, not good), Burke has been better, and based on potential (which I personally see a lot of in Burke and virtually none of in KCP), Burke will be better. He is better in PER, 3 point percentage, assists, and the eye test.
Again, this is what you do though. Anytime the Pistons come up you shit on Burke and defend KCP and the Pistons until the other person stops posting. Breaking news: The Pistons sucka and KCP had a bad year. Keep throwing win shares around all you want, you were pretty much wrong dude.
This is what you do though. You tear down other people's arguments by saying things they didn't say and throw win shares out there, talk about how much NBA you watch and declare yourself the winner. You are too arrogant and closed minded about this topic to even discuss it anymore.
My argument is that outside of win shares (which are for the most part, not good), Burke has been better
It just isn't true. Burke has arguably been a LITTLE better, but both have been largely poor.
VORP:
KCP - 0.23
Burke - 0.03
PER:
KCP - 9.3
Burke - 12.5
Win Share:
KCP - 1.7
Burke - 0.8
True Shooting %:
KCP - 48.4%
Burke - 47.3%
Net Points per 100 posessions:
KCP +5.0
Burke +3.5
Net +/-
KCP +3.7
Burke + 4.0
Thank you.
What. The. Fuck.
You literally said, and I quote, "KCP has also been bad. Very bad. He was supposed to be a nice 3 point shooter and he's shot 31% (which is lower than Burke FWIW). We now have a full season of sample. 31% is very bad. If he was so good or his defense was so "game changing" he'd play more than 13 minutes a game (including single digits on a lot of nights)."
That is heavily implying if not ouright stating that KCP is not going to be a good 3 point shooter. You can't surmise that based upon one season wherein his playing time was extremely inconsistent, and the team had absolutely no semblance of an offensive system or coaching.
Then you imply that because he's a rookie on a team desperately trying to make the playoffs, with a better option at 2 guard if they want to win right now in Rodney Stuckey, that the fact that he's only getting 13 minutes a game (not sure where you're pulling that number from) means he's terrible or that I have stated that he's "so good."
Both of those things are blatantly misrepresenting my argument. I stated in this very thread that KCP has sucked this year, but because I also said Burke has sucked you probably just ignored that, didn't you.
Quit telling me "what I do" because you clearly don't have any clue as evidenced by your responses in this thread. The fact that you keep saying embarrassing shit like this:
Breaking news: The Pistons sucka and KCP had a bad year. Keep throwing win shares around all you want, you were pretty much wrong dude.
When I can point you to statements made by me in this very thread that include...
KCP and Burke have both been pretty sucky, if we're being frank.
http://mgoblog.com/mgoboard/ot-joe-dumars-resign#comment-2501646
This rookie class has been absolutely atrocious. No one deserves to win rookie of the year. They ought to just roll it over next year and hand out two awards.
http://mgoblog.com/mgoboard/ot-joe-dumars-resign#comment-2501515
...shows how full of shit you are.
Stop projecting all of your own terrible arguments onto me.
...hating on Detroit owners. They may not always field winning teams but they are loyal to the city.
The shitty sports team owners are the ones who move their teams to warmer climes as soon as the fans stop showing up during a down season. Or likewise threaten to move their teams in an effort to extort new stadiums, better tax deals, etc.
Given some of the population trends over the years, we should all be very thankful for the Fords, Illitches and even the Gores at this point.
Amen to that. There's a reason why Art Model could never, ever set foot back in Cleveland after 1995. And is still not in the pro football HOF by the way.
new GM Isaiah Thomas
please please please please no
I'm really hoping Bill Laimbeer gets some kind of consideration as Head Coach.
is available.
This or his firing was going to happen eventually, of course, but as someone mentioned above, it is a bit of a shame that he could not leave the Pistons as he found them, if you will. From a management standpoint, the organization has gone from a zenith to a nadir in the span of one decade and all under his watch in this particular instance. However, as we know, he participated in two of the greatest runs for the Pistons really - one as a player and the other as an executive - so it can't be said that he never made enormous positive contributions to the club. The carousel of coaches and the lack of marked improvement recently simply seemed to indicate that a fresh approach might be the best approach now.
Thing is, he took over a pretty mediocre outfit that benefitted from having one of the best players in the league the past half-dozen years in Grant Hill. He made some great trades to get them competitive, and I think whoever takes over will have a really nice roster to work with. Drummond is a stud, and I am personally high on Jennings at least for a year or two more. Smith could be gone tomorrow and I wouldn't shed a tear, and while I like Moose his game isn't going anywhere and doesn't feel like a great fit. I remain a KCP fan because he's a good defender and can be a very good shooter if given the right situation, and guys like Singler and Jerebko should be able to contribute. If they keep their draft pick, this team should add another solid piece and could easily make a big turnaround next year.
In recent years, his poor decisions clearly outnumbered his good ones. Nonetheless, I appreciate all the positive things he's done for this franchise as a player and executive.
The Joe Dumars story ends very sadly. That man was part of 3 championship teams in Motown. Its too bad that it had to go down this way.
While I hope this means better times ahead for the Pistons, I am so sad for Joe, and I wish he could have gone out on a higher note. Best wishes to him in his future endeavors.
I was angry a lot when I was 14 too. Don't worry buddy, it gets better.
I'm not fond of six straight Eastern Conference Finals apperences either.
Michael Carter Williams is what I am most upset about but I can't knock him for taking Darko. Everyone was saying he was the best player outside of Lebron in that Draft.
Eh, even MCW is largely a mirage. He has been padding the hell out of his stats, is horribly inefficent, and his defense has regressed due to the fact that he's constantly gambling for steals (more stat padding). Not to mention just how terrible his team has played all year.
This rookie class has been absolutely atrocious. No one deserves to win rookie of the year. They ought to just roll it over next year and hand out two awards.
Edit: Despite averaging 17-6-6, MCW actually has an offensive win share score in the negatives (-1.2). That should tell you a lot.
I'm with ya.
At first glance, it's easy to be upset that we passed on the favorite for rookie of the year. That would have been a great way to inject some internal and external enthusiasm and hype about this team.
Then you realize that Cheeks/Loyer/saboteurs on the roster wouldn't have developed any rookie from this ho-hum draft class properly, empty stats or not.
I've gone on the record before saying that an MCW/Knight backcourt is preferrable to a Jennings/Stuckey or KCP or Singler setup that we have now, in nearly all ways, but it would have just been a start, not the solution.
I'm willing to give MCW a pass for his regression, based on the utterly embarassing team that Philly's put on the floor this year. It must be really hard to maintain a standard of responsible, efficient play on a team that's not trying to win. The danger the 76ers face is that, in tanking this year, they may have instantiated a series of bad habits in the 2-3 guys they plan to keep that will take multiple years to solve.
If anyone, we should have drafted the Greek Freak. But if they did a redraft, he'd have gone top 3 most likely.
Ownership is not as easy thing. It sometimes takes a few years to get the right people in place and see results on the court/field/rink.
It may feel like Gores is off to a rough start but let's not forget that when Illitch took over the Tigers some of his early moves included such boners as firing Ernie Harwell and dumping the Ballpark Franks in favor of some kind of sausages that I don't even remember. Of course, everybody loves Illitch now but he endured a rough transition too.
I'm not enough into baseball to understand the impact of announcer and concession decisions. But I am very into basketball, and Gores has had since 2011 now. His decision to override his GM for the purpose of hiring, of all people, Lawrence Frank was terrible enough (which was terribly obvious at the time of the hire), and he's done absolutely nothing in the 3 years since then to show he has any competence in basketball decisionmaking or that he's smart in general. The only thing he's shown is that he won't hesitate to utilize his lack of competence in basketball decisionmaking and general lack of intelligence to force bad decisions on the franchise.
At this point, it'll take more than "he needs more than 3 years to show he can make a good decision" and "Illitch picked the wrong hot dogs but turned out to be good" to convince me otherwise.
One does not need to understand baseball to appreciate Ernie Harwell. For many years, he was the best thing about Tigers baseball. Baseball is a different kind of ownership as well. WIth no salary cap, it's all about spending money and hiring the right GM.
I don't know much about today's NBA, but with all of the one-and-dones, free agency moves, and constant shifting of talent, I would agree that 3 years in the NBA does seem like a lifetime. He's also somewhat handicapped because Detroit doesn't have the appeal (at least right now) of say a city like Miami.
The point was that even a "good" owner like Illitch struggled at first with the Tigers. He already experience as an owner with the Wings and had grown up a baseball fan yet he still made such glaring mistakes as Ernie & the hotdogs as well as fielding a pretty shitty baseball teams for more than a decade. Today, everybody loves him because he spends money & is chasing a championship but circa 1993 or 1998 it would have been easy to hate on him as a Tiger fan.
So my point stands, give Gores some patience. He might turn out alright after all. Worse case isn't a losing record or even hiring Isiah, it's he sees the fans giving up and sells the team to Seattle, Tampa, etc.