WDIV just reported that Joe Dumars is resigining. Not exactly a shock.
OT - Joe Dumars to Resign
Excellent news to start the day. Any ideas on who they might get to replace him?
"You a-hole, don't give them any ideas," you say.
"Trust me, that idea was already front and center."
hiring IT would be just that. I appreciate the rumors are out there, but with his considerable baggage, I can't believe IT would be a serious candidate. Give me almost anyone associated with OKC, or better yet San Antonio.
Wrote a little on that a while back:
Obviously not even close to a comprehensive list, but has a few names the casual basketball fan might not be aware of. I'd prefer one of the OKC/POR guys because they've functioned in a similar market.
No, but I'll bet a certain coach in EL is already talking to Tom Gores.
Too bad he couldn't finish his GM career as well as he started it. His detractors willfully ignore a lot of good things he did. Dumars has always been one of the really good guys of the game and doesn't deserve the vitriol. The team's record in the past five or so years speaks for itself, though.
Dumars was my favorite player growing up, and I was really excited when he started off so well as a GM. Outside of basketball, he's also a very good guy and a very good representative of the community. And on the court he was just as good of a representation. I mean, the sportmanship award in the NBA is named the "Joe Dumars Trophy".
I hope he continues to be successful at many of the other things he does around and for Detroit, and I wish the end of his GM reign ended better.
Dumars is a classy guy and a great drafter. He just was completely clueless about the financial side of the game. Pretty much every contract and free agency decision he has made after 2007 has been an epic disaster:
- Extending Prince at above market value
- Dumping Billups' reasonable contract for Iverson's expiring contract, then using the money to sign Gordon and Villanueva
- Overpaying Stuckey and Maxiell
- Extending Hamilton when he had time left and his performance was declining
- Giving up a potential lottery pick to dump one year of Gordon's contract, then using the money to overpay Josh Smith
- Trading Brandon Knight for Brandon Jennings, then overpaying Jennings
letting Amir Johnson and Arron Afflalo get away without getting a single thing in return.
It's time for a change, but I for one am thankful for the great job he did early in his career. The 2004 championship team featured some of the best GM work in NBA history. Best of luck to Joe D in his future endeavors!
and the people if Michigan rejoiced. Thanks for the Bad Boys and 2004, Joe.
Dumars has told multiple sources within the NBA that he plans to resign — possibly as soon as this week — after a busy offseason that included the signings of high-priced free agents Josh Smith and Brandon Jennings and led to an underachieving 2013-14 season. The Pistons, who many experts picked to return to the playoffs in the Eastern Conference, are 28-49 and out of playoff contention.
From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20140408/SPORTS0102/304080018#ixzz2yI...
that Gores will pick the best candidate. I hope he does and has the common sense to get out of the way. If he continues to meddle, I have my doubts that the Pistons have reached bottom.
This is our concern dude. With Gores meddling, they might actually get worse.
This team is already screwed for years to come so it doesn't really matter.
Of course it matters. At least it means he won't be screwing it up even more.
Can't get the poop back in that baby...
I've ever heard it put in that way. Very eloquent. An android +1 for you.
think they have to be screwed for years to come. There are some peices there that could work if they were put together correctly. There are some things that simply have to be done:
1. Rodney Stuckey needs to not be on the team anymore. I don't know the current status of his contract, I think it is expiring. But it does not matter, and I don't care if you just have to buy him out and cut him. It has never worked with him here. He was a bad draft pick that has played like 10 years of poor basketball. When I think Rodney Stuckey I think Pistons losing.
2. Will Bynum needs to not be on the team anymore. It is cool once in a while to see a 6'0 dude throw down a big man, but come on, Will Bynum? What does he do? Why is he still playing? What kind of team is Will Bynum leading? Are you running offense through him? No. Is he a good distributor? No. Is he an effective shooter? No. You see what I am getting at.
3. They need to sort our their bigs. They have the potential to have a formidable front court, but there is no chemistry or cohesion because they have too much of a good thing. For better or worse, J. Smith is ours. He needs to play the four. Monroe's contract is expiring. I like him but he needs to go.
4. They need a knockdown shooter. I would search the landscape both in the draft and through free agency. They need somebody that can snipe with regularity. There is this one guy from Canada that I have heard is a pretty good shooter. May not be a bad idea depending on where they draft.
While I think he catches more flack than he deserves, it's a shame that he couldn't have resigned last year to make way for a replacement who would draft Trey.
Please rip your dick off so you don't procreate.
I think he's had it with the DUMARS SUX/KCP SUX/TREY GOAT circle jerk that has permeated literally (and I mean literally) every NBA thread on the board this season.
He may be tired of it and it may be a "circle-jerk" but what part of the first two aren't true and I dont think anybody has put Trey in the GOAT category. A lot of fans were rightly pissed off that Dumars constructed a team of misfit toys and let somebody from Michigan they could actually....i dunno...use go elsewhere. And from the looks of the attendance figures (the Pistons are dead freaking last in % of paid attendance to arena size) I'm guessing the circle-jerkers on this board arent alone.
28-49 will do that for you.
just for attendance purpose and to drive up ticket sales, you're going to get fired pretty soon. You take the player who will win you games for the next 5-10 years. Not saying KCP and Trey are the answer, but to declare that a player should be drafted to drive up revenues should be shot figuratively that is.
It's like people are saying Jacksonville Jaguars should draft Tim Tebow at 1st round to drive up attendance when in reality Tebow is a terrible QB. Just saying it as an example.
Based on what I've seen this year KCP isn't even going to be in the league in 5 years, let alone winnning anyone games for the next 5-10 years. Maybe Trey wouldn't have made them a better team this year, but I suspect he is going to contribue more positives in his overall career than KCP is. Maybe he should have taken someone else other than either KCP OR Trey. All I know is that he CLEARLY shouldn't have taken KCP.
on their 1st year. /hyperbole
There is a reason why you don't judge a player until it's their 3rd year in the league whether they can be a significant contributor.
To me, KCP will become a really solid player who can support a team as a key role player as a 3 & D type player.
Hey Allan Houston sucked his first year, so I guess it is possible. However, Allan Houston had quite a bit better numbers in college, and even his sucky numbers his first year were better than KCP's numbers. Anything is possible, but I wouldn't be betting any money that you need for anything important on KCP's success.
so he can ball.....
Trey Burke would not have a significant long term impact on attendance and TV ratings. Fact is, the Pistons would be a little worse with Burke instead of Jennings if you look at any advanced metrics. We'd still suck. Winning will put butts in the seats and eyes on the TV in the long term. Not a PG from a school that only half the state roots for.
Attendance is so bad at the Palace because the product sucks (and still would with Trey running the point) and because it's in the most god awful location. I refuse to go to the games because it's a big annoyance to get there and leave. If the Pistons were actually in Detroit, attendance might not be great but it wouldn't be as dismal as it is IMO.
Based on Trey Burke's play I doubt they would have driven up ticket sales, at least it wouldn't have worked out any better than signing Chauncey Billups drove up ticket sales (as in, an extremely small amount for a brief period of time).
Drafting people based on their ability to sell tickets is probably a bad idea in general.
Also, every single argument I've rehashed over and over and over in every single one of these threads. Stuff about how Burke and Brandon Knight would make for maybe the worst defensive back court in the league. As much of a chucker as Jennings has been, Trey has been worse. The Pistons goal was to make the playoffs this year, and so going with a veteran point guard over a rookie point guard was a safer move toward furthering that goal (even though the Pistons have sucked, Jennings has backed that up posting a WS of 4.2 vs. Burke's .8). The relative lack of depth at shooting guard versus the extreme depth at point guard, making it so even if KCP isn't as good of a player he could still have more value.
KCP and Burke have both been pretty sucky, if we're being frank.
The bottom line is that a lot of people are just fed up with people being dicks about it. Burke's play has in no way shape or form justified the level of outrage, and KCP doesn't deserve any of the vitriol directed his way by people from this board. He didn't draft himself.
It also speaks volumes how when Burke has had good games this year (which has been pretty infrequient) the chirpers come flocking out of the woodwork, but when he's gone vast stretches of time with poor play it's crickets. All you need to do is compare the two Jazz-Pistons game threads for proof of that (the game where Burke played well was "LOLOLOL BURKE! FUCK DUMARS! FUCK KCP!" while the game where Burke played poorly was silence).
It's just so incredibly tired and played out as a meme. Dumars is going to be gone. It's time to move on.
FWIW I agree with virtually all the points you just made. My contention on drafting Trey v KCP as it relates to attendance is simply that if all things are equal it certainly wouldnt hurt attendance to have the local boy in town. I used to be a Cavs season ticket holder and I can tell you the jump from pre-Lebron to post-Lebron was unbelievable (and just to be clear I'm not putting Trey and LeBron in the same category of player) and the Cavs didnt make the playoffs for the first two years he was in Cleveland. But it was sellout city baby as Northern Ohio came out to cheer on it's own.
Would Trey have filled the seats? Probably not. Would he have helped attendance and interest? I think he would have.
Just my opnion.
Trey Burke is not a 'local boy'. He played two years at of U of M and he has a fucking Columbus tattoo on his forearm. This narrative needs to stop. It's not like he was Steve Alford, who grew up in Indiana and played for the premeire blue-blood program in the state.
believe Ohio State did not recruit him.
They were set with the premiere point guard in Big Ten, nay college basketball, history.
I don't think your opinion is based on much. It's not like we had people banging on the doors of Crisler days before games to get tickets to watch Trey play at Michigan. Why would a significant amount of Michigan fans be going to the middle of nowhere to watch a rookie play inconsistently on a crappy team? Any miniscule bump that the Pistons would have initially received would have disappeared when their record kept creeping farther away from .500.
If they had drafted Burke they wouldn't have had to sign Jennings. No matter how many novels you write in the comments, Dumars simply made a bad mistake not drafting Trey. The fact that their goal to make the playoffs has been missed badly just adds to the insanity of it all. Burke has a ceiling he hasn't come close to hitting, Jennings is who he is. Get over people calling a spade a spade.
If Dumars drafts Burke he never gets to see his ceiling, they still don't make the playoffs, and he still gets fired. It doesn't work out any differently for Joe.
If they draft Burke, Knight becomes harder to move.
Thing is, do you really think Burke changes that number too much outside of the first month or so? I know people around here love Burke, but he's an average-ish rookie with a decent-if-unspectacular upside. Fans wouldn't be out in droves to watch him throw up a 12-5-3 with mediocre shooting numbers, and LOTS of Pistons fans are MSU fans, so who knows if they would want to cheer a guy who pwned their team for years.
cuz he didn't decide to crudely comment until Trey's name showed up in the thread---not to any of the earlier negative comments about Dumars--and KCP was never mentioned.
I think my opinion has always been a lot more nuanced than that. Basically, KCP can be a worse player but due to the relative strengths of their positions have more value than Burke. Also, earlier in the season KCP was playing better than Burke and the advanced stats bore it out. Then KCP's minutes started getting yoyoed and his play became equially as sporadic.
Also, despite all of that, KCP still has a higher WS/48 than Burke (.55 to .18) and more WS on the season (1.7 to .8), and that's with Burke playing 600 more minutes (WS are compiled over time).
Please stop throwing around Win Shares like it's some magical stat from heaven. It's not.
Offensive win shares is pretty good, but defensive win shares is crap. Judging a player's defensive value by how many points they allow is highly dependent on the players around them, which for Burke, are crap. Give Burke KCP's teammates (ex. Andre Drummond) and his defensive win share rating would skyrocket. A stat heavily based on your teammates is pretty much crap. It's like the Pitcher Win in baseball. +/- in hockey. Your teammates can ruin in/ save it for you. Both crappy stats, as is defensive win shares.
If you think KCP's defense makes him a better play than Burke, great. But don't throw Win Shares around like that "proves it" or anything.
Win Shares are not entirely without value, and considering most scouts agree KCP is a relatively good defender, while Burke is a very poor defender, they may not be without merit in this instance.
Give KCP Burke's minutes, FGA per game, stick him onto a team where he is the number 1 or 2 option offensively, and his raw offensive numbers would greatly improve. It's all relative.
Also, seeing as you've brought up OWS being a good stat, KCP's OWS is higher than Burkes (.9 to .7) despite Burke having played 600 more minutes.
Dude you did it again. Used 1 stat. Win shares. That's all you have. And win shares isn't that good.
What about PER? Burke wins. 3 point percentage? Burke wins. I could go on and on.
But there's no point in arguing with you. All you do is shit on Burke and defend the Pistons. That's your thing on mgoblog. I get it.
You seem a little too emotionally invested in this argument.
I'm sorry, but the use of one stat to shit on Burke (which he does literally every time this comes up) bothers me.
Have you been negged a great deal in this thread or something?
I'm seriously beginning to question your perception of reality.
PER doesn't take into account defense and values volume scoring too much.
KCP has higher TS% and eFG%, which are better metrics for evaluating a player's scoring efficiency than simply stating 3pt% or FG%.
Your argument is based on emotions and feelings. I get that. I wanted the Pistons to draft Burke but they didn't. Oh well. Too bad. It's time to move on.
I haven't shitted on Burke. You're just such a homer you paint anything less than the most glowing reviews as "shitting on Burke."
Nuance is your friend.
I don't think he's arguing that Win Shares alone proves KCP is better than Burke, but it is at least an attempt to quantify offensive and defensive value. And people around here keep talking about Burke as if his pro career has been the same as his college career, and the facts haven't borne that out one iota.
Thank you. The fact that he can't understand this is a sad.
Ignoring the fact that the "SUX/GOAT" is a strawman, what do you expect people to talk about?
Dumars has been bad. No getting around that. Haven't won over 40% of their games in the last 5 years. Charlie V. Ben Gordon. Josh Smith. Mistake after mistake. For what I've heard he's a good guy, but man, he's been a pitiful GM. He had to go.
KCP has also been bad. Very bad. He was supposed to be a nice 3 point shooter and he's shot 31% (which is lower than Burke FWIW). We now have a full season of sample. 31% is very bad. If he was so good or his defense was so "game changing" he'd play more than 13 minutes a game (including single digits on a lot of nights). Hell, the season is LOST, nothing to play for, and he still can't get minutes on this garbage team.
Burke has not been all that great, but he has not been nearly as bad as you make it seem sometimes. Are his win shares high? No, but they aren't going to be. The offense around him is bad and the defense is even worse. That hurts his win shares. Defense win shares is calculated based on points allowed while on the court. It's like +/- in hockey. It's dependent on others and thus, pretty much crap. Using one stat to judge a player is not smart, in any sport. Especially defensive win shares. Burke is still a Top 5 rookie in the league and he'll put up better numbers when he has a real team around him, because that's how it works.
Burke and KCP have both been pretty poor shooters, but with the major caveat that Burke drives the Utah offense and can look for his shoot WAY more than KCP. And there can be lots of reasons why rookies don't see much playing time beyond "earning" it. It's a lost season and the team seems to have a couple of egos that need to be massaged, and since you can only roll 5 out at a time I'm not surprised KCP hasn't seen major minutes.
And stop dismissing some stats that don't support your story while trumpetting others. Yes, Win Shares aren't great, but it is a crude estimate that helps to provide some information. Burke has a usage rate of 21%; KCP is around 14%. That's a pretty big difference, compounded by Burke playing 600 more minutes.
Burke has been fine this year, but being a top 5 rookie from one of the worst draft classes in recent history isn't some amazing accomplishment. He's had an okay rookie year, and I suspect he'll improve a bit, but this chasm of quality between KCP and Burke people keep arguing over seems really hollow.
So KCP is a very bad player whose bad season is proof he will always be bad? We have enough of a sample size to determine just how bad he is, and all of the stats illustrating he may have not been quite as bad as everyone's making him out to be can be casually dismissed out of hand. It's over for him, even though he was stuck in a shitty situation on a shitty team. It doesn't matter.
While Burke's bad year isn't really that bad. I'm being unfair to Burke. He's actually a lot better than the numbers suggest. If only all of these mitigating factors weren't conspiring to make him look worse than he actually is. We need to just wait and give him time to develop and he will get a lot better. Sure he's on a shitty team, stuck in a shitty situation, but that's just means he has that much more room to improve and will be that much better!
This is about as one sided as you can get, but I'm the guy using a straw man argument here? Was there no cognitive dissonance what so ever when you wrote this post?
You actually just strawmaned again.
I did not say it was over for KCP. I said he has been bad and getting no playing time. Once again, you manipulated my argument to say "It's over for him".
My argument is that outside of win shares (which are for the most part, not good), Burke has been better, and based on potential (which I personally see a lot of in Burke and virtually none of in KCP), Burke will be better. He is better in PER, 3 point percentage, assists, and the eye test.
Again, this is what you do though. Anytime the Pistons come up you shit on Burke and defend KCP and the Pistons until the other person stops posting. Breaking news: The Pistons sucka and KCP had a bad year. Keep throwing win shares around all you want, you were pretty much wrong dude.
This is what you do though. You tear down other people's arguments by saying things they didn't say and throw win shares out there, talk about how much NBA you watch and declare yourself the winner. You are too arrogant and closed minded about this topic to even discuss it anymore.
My argument is that outside of win shares (which are for the most part, not good), Burke has been better
It just isn't true. Burke has arguably been a LITTLE better, but both have been largely poor.
KCP - 0.23
Burke - 0.03
KCP - 9.3
Burke - 12.5
KCP - 1.7
Burke - 0.8
True Shooting %:
KCP - 48.4%
Burke - 47.3%
Net Points per 100 posessions:
Burke + 4.0
What. The. Fuck.
You literally said, and I quote, "KCP has also been bad. Very bad. He was supposed to be a nice 3 point shooter and he's shot 31% (which is lower than Burke FWIW). We now have a full season of sample. 31% is very bad. If he was so good or his defense was so "game changing" he'd play more than 13 minutes a game (including single digits on a lot of nights)."
That is heavily implying if not ouright stating that KCP is not going to be a good 3 point shooter. You can't surmise that based upon one season wherein his playing time was extremely inconsistent, and the team had absolutely no semblance of an offensive system or coaching.
Then you imply that because he's a rookie on a team desperately trying to make the playoffs, with a better option at 2 guard if they want to win right now in Rodney Stuckey, that the fact that he's only getting 13 minutes a game (not sure where you're pulling that number from) means he's terrible or that I have stated that he's "so good."
Both of those things are blatantly misrepresenting my argument. I stated in this very thread that KCP has sucked this year, but because I also said Burke has sucked you probably just ignored that, didn't you.
Quit telling me "what I do" because you clearly don't have any clue as evidenced by your responses in this thread. The fact that you keep saying embarrassing shit like this:
Breaking news: The Pistons sucka and KCP had a bad year. Keep throwing win shares around all you want, you were pretty much wrong dude.
When I can point you to statements made by me in this very thread that include...
KCP and Burke have both been pretty sucky, if we're being frank.
This rookie class has been absolutely atrocious. No one deserves to win rookie of the year. They ought to just roll it over next year and hand out two awards.
...shows how full of shit you are.
Stop projecting all of your own terrible arguments onto me.
I think his contract is up, so he doesn't have to resign.
...hating on Detroit owners. They may not always field winning teams but they are loyal to the city.
The shitty sports team owners are the ones who move their teams to warmer climes as soon as the fans stop showing up during a down season. Or likewise threaten to move their teams in an effort to extort new stadiums, better tax deals, etc.
Given some of the population trends over the years, we should all be very thankful for the Fords, Illitches and even the Gores at this point.
Amen to that. There's a reason why Art Model could never, ever set foot back in Cleveland after 1995. And is still not in the pro football HOF by the way.
I was really hoping that he'd hire Bill Laimbeer for one last hoorah. He previously said that he did not want to hire him because he wouldn't have the heart to fire his friend if it lead to that. Maybe new GM Isaiah Thomas would take a chance on him?
new GM Isaiah Thomas
please please please please no
I'm really hoping Bill Laimbeer gets some kind of consideration as Head Coach.
This or his firing was going to happen eventually, of course, but as someone mentioned above, it is a bit of a shame that he could not leave the Pistons as he found them, if you will. From a management standpoint, the organization has gone from a zenith to a nadir in the span of one decade and all under his watch in this particular instance. However, as we know, he participated in two of the greatest runs for the Pistons really - one as a player and the other as an executive - so it can't be said that he never made enormous positive contributions to the club. The carousel of coaches and the lack of marked improvement recently simply seemed to indicate that a fresh approach might be the best approach now.
Thing is, he took over a pretty mediocre outfit that benefitted from having one of the best players in the league the past half-dozen years in Grant Hill. He made some great trades to get them competitive, and I think whoever takes over will have a really nice roster to work with. Drummond is a stud, and I am personally high on Jennings at least for a year or two more. Smith could be gone tomorrow and I wouldn't shed a tear, and while I like Moose his game isn't going anywhere and doesn't feel like a great fit. I remain a KCP fan because he's a good defender and can be a very good shooter if given the right situation, and guys like Singler and Jerebko should be able to contribute. If they keep their draft pick, this team should add another solid piece and could easily make a big turnaround next year.
In recent years, his poor decisions clearly outnumbered his good ones. Nonetheless, I appreciate all the positive things he's done for this franchise as a player and executive.
This team may be a flaming s***hole, but he did leave it with some talent; enough to the point another GM might be able to build a good team fairly quickly.
I just hope the new guy does whatever it takes to get Randle from UK. After watching him in the tourney I'm convinced he's the best NBA prospect by a lot, but Parker will still get all the hype. Start over and build the team around the twin towers Drummond and Randle and we could be the San Antonio Spurs for years.
Say it ain't so Joe.
The Joe Dumars story ends very sadly. That man was part of 3 championship teams in Motown. Its too bad that it had to go down this way.
While I hope this means better times ahead for the Pistons, I am so sad for Joe, and I wish he could have gone out on a higher note. Best wishes to him in his future endeavors.
I was angry a lot when I was 14 too. Don't worry buddy, it gets better.
I hate championships too. Just despise them. Perhaps you are too young to remember the last one he brought Detroit though, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
I'm not fond of six straight Eastern Conference Finals apperences either.
Michael Carter Williams is what I am most upset about but I can't knock him for taking Darko. Everyone was saying he was the best player outside of Lebron in that Draft.
Eh, even MCW is largely a mirage. He has been padding the hell out of his stats, is horribly inefficent, and his defense has regressed due to the fact that he's constantly gambling for steals (more stat padding). Not to mention just how terrible his team has played all year.
This rookie class has been absolutely atrocious. No one deserves to win rookie of the year. They ought to just roll it over next year and hand out two awards.
Edit: Despite averaging 17-6-6, MCW actually has an offensive win share score in the negatives (-1.2). That should tell you a lot.
I'm willing to give MCW a pass for his regression, based on the utterly embarassing team that Philly's put on the floor this year. It must be really hard to maintain a standard of responsible, efficient play on a team that's not trying to win. The danger the 76ers face is that, in tanking this year, they may have instantiated a series of bad habits in the 2-3 guys they plan to keep that will take multiple years to solve.
If anyone, we should have drafted the Greek Freak. But if they did a redraft, he'd have gone top 3 most likely.
Too bad. Hate to see a father lose his job - no matter what level he was employed. He always seemed to handle himself in a very professional manner.
It was about that time...
I don't have very much faith in Gores's decisionmaking at all. Anyone with half a basketball mind could see that hiring Frank was a terrible decision. He pretty much seems like a buffoon who was born into his dad's construction money. Expect Dumar's replacement to be far less competent and to see Drummond in a Lakers uniform in a few years.
Ownership is not as easy thing. It sometimes takes a few years to get the right people in place and see results on the court/field/rink.
It may feel like Gores is off to a rough start but let's not forget that when Illitch took over the Tigers some of his early moves included such boners as firing Ernie Harwell and dumping the Ballpark Franks in favor of some kind of sausages that I don't even remember. Of course, everybody loves Illitch now but he endured a rough transition too.
I'm not enough into baseball to understand the impact of announcer and concession decisions. But I am very into basketball, and Gores has had since 2011 now. His decision to override his GM for the purpose of hiring, of all people, Lawrence Frank was terrible enough (which was terribly obvious at the time of the hire), and he's done absolutely nothing in the 3 years since then to show he has any competence in basketball decisionmaking or that he's smart in general. The only thing he's shown is that he won't hesitate to utilize his lack of competence in basketball decisionmaking and general lack of intelligence to force bad decisions on the franchise.
At this point, it'll take more than "he needs more than 3 years to show he can make a good decision" and "Illitch picked the wrong hot dogs but turned out to be good" to convince me otherwise.
One does not need to understand baseball to appreciate Ernie Harwell. For many years, he was the best thing about Tigers baseball. Baseball is a different kind of ownership as well. WIth no salary cap, it's all about spending money and hiring the right GM.
I don't know much about today's NBA, but with all of the one-and-dones, free agency moves, and constant shifting of talent, I would agree that 3 years in the NBA does seem like a lifetime. He's also somewhat handicapped because Detroit doesn't have the appeal (at least right now) of say a city like Miami.
The point was that even a "good" owner like Illitch struggled at first with the Tigers. He already experience as an owner with the Wings and had grown up a baseball fan yet he still made such glaring mistakes as Ernie & the hotdogs as well as fielding a pretty shitty baseball teams for more than a decade. Today, everybody loves him because he spends money & is chasing a championship but circa 1993 or 1998 it would have been easy to hate on him as a Tiger fan.
So my point stands, give Gores some patience. He might turn out alright after all. Worse case isn't a losing record or even hiring Isiah, it's he sees the fans giving up and sells the team to Seattle, Tampa, etc.
I understand your point, and as a lifelong Tigers fan I wasn't disagreeing with you. I remember '03 (119 losses) and Juan Gonzales. SO I completely get the comparison, but I think my point was more or less that it's easier to dig yourself out of a rough patch in baseball by throwing money into the team, a new stadium, and upper management with proven success.
I think if you told me that Gores was going to hire someone of Dombrowski's caliber I would be more patient with him. Dombrowski had won a world series with the Marlins of all teams. So tell me who they are going to go out and get that's on that level? With Joe D in charge (and I love Joe D the player, and early GM) the Pistons are digging a hole that is going to take a lifetime to get out of. If Gores wanted autonomy over coaching changes he should've fired Joe D immediately or made that very clear. He didn't and they ended up with a public dispute over who would coach the team. I don't think Woodson would have mitigated the tire fire that is the current roster, but he was certainly a better choice than Frank. At this point, you are right, the jury is still out on Gores as an owner, but I would also argue the clock is ticking and soon he is going to have the Pistons buried under a situation where there's no good short term outcome. If you are telling me we have to wait 3-4 more years for a winner, then I would say Gores should just move the damn team to Seattle or Tampa. We would be better off with a new franchise/clean slate.
and he's done absolutely nothing in the 3 years since then to show he has any competence in basketball decisionmaking or that he's smart in general.
Umm what not? You don't get to be worth 2.5 billion by being dumb, unless you inherit wealth.
THEY'RE GOING TO RE-SIGN HIM!? HOW LONG WILL HIS NEW CONTRACT BE?!?!
After the 3rd or 4th time, I wanted to throw my computer out of the window so now whenever I type anything long, I may sure to select all and copy it. That way if it happens I can paste it right back.
signing Smith and Jennings are an act of desperation move when Gores told him Playoff or get fired. The problem is when a GM is on a life support with an ultimatium, they will make moves that looks good on paper talent wise, but are bad signings long term. You need a owner who will support the GM and preach patience so the GM can make the right moves long terms instead of rash signings like Jennings and Smith.
Not saying Joe D should be freed of blame, but when you have that kind of situation, GM tends to make stupid signings.
I've heard rumblings that it was Gores that forced Dumars to sign Smith. No evidence of this, but it wouldn't surprise me.
Sure he was a great player and he brought the Pistons the 2004 title, but he's been a failure at his job since then.
He's gotten paid A LOT of money and this is part of the job. It's not like he didn't get a fair shot. It's not like he can't feed his family. It's not like he's all of a sudden Will Smith from Pursuit of Happiness.
Why should ANYONE shed a tear for Dumars? Why should fans not be allowed to celebrate the change?
This is a grown man who was GM of a major sports team in America. This wasn't some 3rd grade teacher getting paid 25k a year. This wasn't me or you who aren't even close to a position, and likely a salary like Dumars had.
It's part of his position. It's part of the game. He knew when he signed up, he was going to make millions of dollars, have a shit ton of responsibility and be judged on the performance of the team he put on the floor.
Did he not get enough time? Was he not compensated fairly? What is so unjust that people can't rejoice in the change? Joe Dumars losing his job is not the same as everyone else losing their job.
It may be in poor taste, but is that REEEALLY the most distasteful thing in sports or on MGoBlog? No. Doing a Tuesday morning happy dance to this news is not. It comes with the territory - especially in sports - especially in professional sports.
Joe D makes millions and I don't; why is that a reason I should criticize him? Neither I nor anyone else is going, oh what a terrible thing for a man to lose his job in this woeful economy. Yes, I'm glad that it means that the Pistons have a better chance to improve - that doesn't have to mean being a classless dick about it and forgetting the good stuff he did. Focusing on only the bad is a pretty bitter and unpleasant way to go through life.
I said it's part of his job. Plain and simple.
Don't twist my words so you can cry some more.
Its also that Dumar has become a sort of easy scapegoat for the difficulties in transitioning ownership. It's easy to critize him for his moves in recent years but these moves also need to be considered in relation to the difficult context where he was sometimes operating with his hands tied.
Hindsight is 20/20 but perhaps it would have been wiser for Dumars to step away at the end of the Davidson era.
But at this point he is indefensible. the josh smith-Jennings pairing was pretty a pretty obvious oversight on paper (both are selfish and take bad shots) but the team still has a budding superstar in Drummond and a potential all star in Monroe. If they land a high pick in the draft (assuming that they are even in the top 8) they should take a wing or guard that can shoot and play defense and then try to rid themselves of JS and BJ. Then I think they need to extend Monroe, which creates a half-decent team that probably just misses the playoffs. Obviously getting rid of smith and Jennings will be harder than that because no one else will want them on their team, and if that's the case they can ride out the Jennings deal until he is an expiring contract that is easier to flip and maybe just find another bad GM trying to save their career by gift-wrapping smith to them. They probably aren't going to be great next year, but with Drummond and Monroe on the same team and a couple of lotto picks the team will get better.
Being upset about him not taking Melo is stupid. Why is it that the Knicks usually aren't any better or worse when he's out of the lineup? He just doesn't win.
The rest of the stuff on the other hand, okay. But at least we have a championship, another championship appearance, and 6 straight trips to the conference finals.
just like the rest of the GMs at the time. There was a time where Darko was once considered to be a better prospect than LeBron.
"There was a time where Darko was once considered to be a better prospect than LeBron."
Please show me ONE link that supports this crazy notion.
Joe Dumars should've been fired a long time ago. There was no reason he deserved to "Resign"!
there are many many reasons Joe "deserved' to be able to resign (on his own terms): 1987-1991, 2004-07 and a few others that weren't too bad.
Joe was given the chance to resign both because he is a Pistons legend and because he brought the franchise back from mediocrity, going to 6 straight ECF, 2 Finals, and winning 1 championship. He was given such a long leash because he earned it and because of the whole Karen Davidson fiasco. This was his make or break or break season, and he failed to deliver. He deserves to be fired, but his contract is up and they didn't want to make their Bad Boys celebration awkward, so they choose to let him ride out the season. I think that was a classy decision by Gores.
I grew up on the original Bad Boy Pistons and loved Joe D as a player. Loved him even more as a GM initially when he brought in the missing link of a championship team, Sheed. I'm not going to miss his head scratching free agent signings over the last few years. That's what did him in. I think his early successes and the draft blunder that was Darko eventually made him desperate for more success, which led to some of the shitty moves he's made in more recent memory. Hopefully they don't bring in Zeke, but someone who actually knows what they're doing so they can clean out the garbage and build around some of the better young players the Pistons have.
so I guess it is only fitting the rest of him do the same. Really, has there ever been such a dramatic turn around in a GM's performance? Dumars went from Jerry West in the first half of his career to Matt Millen in the second half.
I feel bad that he's gone. People like to crap on him, but he took a turrible situation and turned it into one of the more prolonged stretches of success a non-San Antonio team has enjoyed in decades. Yes, his last couple of years have been down, but I'm looking forward to everyone here crapping on the guy they bring in.
And honestly, you throw out the Darko pick and his drafting record is perfectly acceptable.
Terrible GM and even worse at drafting. How's Mateen, Darko, Rodney White, Daye, Pope doing for the Pistons?
People who already label KCP as a bust will be eating crow for years to come my friend.
DEMETRIUS HART! Right?!?!
Is this a joke? Pistons have some nice pieces in place like Moose, KCP and Siva to go along with Drum.
That being said please trade Josh Smith on Draft day.
Wake up, time to go. We'll always have the championship banners to remember you by.
Gores is clearing the deck for Izzo.
The question is, will Izzo take the Pres/GM role, and set up one of his cronies as the coach; or will he coach and hire someone to run the front office? Either way, I think Steve Smith is coming back to Detroit.