OT- Jim Leyland and Tigers
Today the Tigers had a 4-1 lead in bottom of the 8th with 1 out. Ryan Perry proceeded to give up a single, homerun, single, double (about 2 ft from a HR), and a single before Leyland decided to pull the plug. At this point we were already down 5-4, which turned out to be the final. Mind you Zumaya and Coke were both warming up before the HR, and coke came in to get two quick outs right after this.
What are everyone's feelings on Leyland? I gave myself a cool down period before posting this, but am still pissed about it. I've been strongly against Leyland's in game managing for a long time now and he continues to do things that are so incomprehensibly dumb IMO.
Last year in the play-in game vs the twins he put in miner, who got lit up in close games all season, when we had a lead late in the game. Everyone around me hated the decision and Miner proceeded to blow the game. There are a plethora of other things he does and has done that bother me, and I just wanted to know what the general opinion on him is from most tigers fan. Personally, I would love to see us bring in someone else, but what does everyone think?
Today's mistake was inexcusable. There were 3 different times Perry should have been removed. He gives up the 2 run HR, yout take him out. He gives up a single and his third hit in a row, you take him out. He gives up a double and his FOURTH hit in a row, you take him out. But no, he didn't take him out after any of those. It was completely and utterly ridiculous and there is no justification for it.
Rod Allen tried to say that Jim was using it as a teaching moment. Teaching moments are for minor leaguers and for spring training. You don't waste a game in the majors on a "teaching moment." I think the Tigers learned last year how important just one game can be. I also was pissed after that game.
I neg every post containing the words "unacceptable" or "inexcusable." Matter of principle. Sorry, dude.
Anyone who wants Leyland fired probably has no attention span due to the extreme "yes but what have you done for me lately" attitude that is a prerequisite.
I dont understand what you're trying to say? Should an AL championship 4 yrs ago give him a free pass for terrible managing decisions and not even making the playoffs with the 5th highest payroll in the league.
If we don't make the playoffs this year we need to take a serious look at bringing in someone else
I don't think we will be making the playoffs this season. Minnesota, Tampa Bay and the Yankees are all better than we are IMHO. Did you take a gander at the lineup with Cabrera out, it is pretty weak, and our starting pitching is anything but a sure thing.
What does payroll have to do with anything? Half that money is tied up in players that aren't especially useful. Leyland has nothing to do with that.
Flip that around on you: it's pretty impressive that the Tigers even have a winning record given all the dead money tied up on that payroll. Did it occur to you Leyland might have something to do with that?
Impressive that the tigers have a winning record? Do you follow baseball? We have a great bullpen, one of the best pitchers AND hitters in baseball, 2 rookies batting over .330, and 2 career .300 hitters in Damon and Ordonez. Impressive that we have a winning record in a bad division?
They are only 9-9 in their bad division and they only have a run differential of +3 so yes it is a little impressive that they are 4 games over .500
I apparently follow baseball more than you do, since you've neglected to mention the patchwork rotation Leyland has to work with. Verlander's not pitching like Verlander, Bonderman's coming back from horrendous shoulder problems, Willis is struggling as usual, Scherzer bombed, Porcello's having a sophomore slump. With this rotation, plus absolutely no production at all from the catcher position, two more regulars barely over the Mendoza line, and Guillen hurt for most of the year, a winning record is pretty tremendous. We've played 13 of 46 games against the bad teams in the division. I don't think you follow baseball like you like to think you do.
You can indirectly say that the team is bad all you want, but the bottom line is they have been good enough to win games this year. To try and say that Leyland is a good manager simply because the team is 4 games over .500 is arbitrary, just like it would be arbitrary to say that Leyland was a bad manager because the team went 74-88 in 2008.
What isn't arbitrary is being critical of Leyland when he makes bonehead mistakes that cost us games, such as leaving Perry in the game way too long. Two other mistakes that I have already mentioned this year were a few games ago against the Dodgers when we had Avila batting with runners in scoring position in the 9th rather than magglio because he substituted magglio out, and another game earlier in the year when Leyland pinch hit Brandon Inge for Boesch (2 days after Boesch hit a solo in the 9th to tie the game) late in the game.
So to say its an isolated event is simply not true. And obviously I'm not condoning firing him in the middle of the season or something; I'm saying that if he misses the playoffs for the 4th straight year then he should be gone.
To try and say that Leyland is a good manager simply because the team is 4 games over .500 is arbitrary, just like it would be arbitrary to say that Leyland was a bad manager because the team went 74-88 in 2008.
Do you speak English? That's the opposite of arbitrary.
not based on any objective distinction, perhaps even made at random
Wow... yes it is arbitrary because you are randomly assigning credit to Leyland based on a variable (record) that has more to do with player performance than manager performance.
According to that logic Leyland was a terrible manager in 2008 (not saying its true, just using your faulty 'the team has a good record so leyland is a good manager' logic).
I hope you can comprehend this becasue i am done with this thread.
I'm sorry, but I'm going to be blunt. Your logic is clearly biased, and also retarded.
If the team wins or performs above and beyond expectations it is due to the players.
If the team loses or performs below expectations then it's all the manager's fault.
Your logic has more hole than swiss cheese and now you're being intellectually dishonest for the purpose of trying to "win" an argument.
Even if somewhere in your rambling incoherent posts you did have a point, your douche baggery and inability to even recognize the other side of the argument has rendered you hopelessly lost.
That's prophetic
And I'm saying that the team he's been given by Dombrowski and the fates (largely the fates - it's nobody's fault that Porcello has been so bad and Bonderman had all that shoulder trouble) is barely good enough to finish .500 and definitely not playoff-caliber, and the fact that we're in a race at all is impressive enough that there's no way Leyland's job should be on the line.
How can you say they are barely good enough to finish .500? You have no evidence to support that statement. The team is clearly pretty good considering they are 25-21. Sure you can say that we are 25-21 because of Leyland, but that would be arbitrarily distributing credit as I said before.
What is certain tho, is the fact that Leyland should not have left Perry in (almost anyone with any baseball knowledge will agree with that). This most likely cost us a victory; not the first time leyland has done this and won't be the last. The guy is known to over-manage games.
Maybe I'm wrong though. Maybe Leyland somehow is solely responsible for Jackson and Boesch playing out of their minds and Cabrera/Ordonez's success. Maybe none of these players would be winning games for us if Leyland wasn't manager.
No evidence to support that statement? Are you even paying any fucking attention to what I'm telling you?? THE STARTING CATCHER IS HITTING .158!! THE #3 STARTER IS IN FUCKING TRIPLE A TOLEDO!! Do you always need to be bricked over the head with evidence, or are you just being purposely obtuse?
Has been telling Leyland to stick with Perry to help him develop wherever it's not 100% insane to do so.
I know that Rod Allen talks all of the freaking time about Leyland using his "GUT" feelings, but I'm in the same boat as you. I hate to be a guy to question a proven winner, but some of his gut feelings suck. Last night when he left Verlander in for the 8th, I had a hunch that he was used up, and sure as shit JV gives up a couple of runs.
I'm not going to call for his head as long as we're competing for a Division Title, but I too would like to see The Tigers bring someone else in(Alan Trammel?).
Not to be too hard on him, but you do remember the first time, right? He hasn't managed again since and is the Cubs bench coach for a reason.
He will need to cut his teeth somewhere else before they bring him back to the D again.
I think you're being too hard on him. I don't know if he would have had the success that Leyland has had, but look at some of the rosters Tram had to work with and you'd be hard pressed to find a manager who would have succeeded in his position. If anything he was pretty much put in a no-win situation.
I do think he will be a good skipper one day, he just needs some more experience before one of the big time teams give him a shot again.
Brewers or Astros maybe??
I guarantee you that every manager in baseball will make a similar decision at some point this year. It happens.
Agreed, but this isn't the only time Leyland has done it, and he will absolutely do it again.
Another thing he does frequently that i cant stand is substitute "for defense" late in close games. He takes out a premier hitter and puts in a .200 hitter (usually Don Kelly in for Ordonez). He did this a few games ago against the dodgers and we ended up with runners on 1st and 2nd in the 9th down 2 and we had avila batting instead of ordonez. He also did this in the play-in game last year and we had Don Kelly in extra innings rather than Ordonez (once Miner blew the lead). Last I checked Ordonez wasn't a slouch in the field, just ask Derek Jeter...
Nearly every manager does this. Here on the North Side, Pinella does it just about every night.
While Ordonez has a good arm, he covers very little ground in right. He'll end up near the bottom of AL rightfielders in Fielding Plus-Minus, Range Factor, etc.
Your point stands, though.
Leyland has always rubbed me the wrong way with how he manages at times but he's doing something right. I think my patience is running short though with all the second half meltdowns.
are a game out of first. That is something to be proud of considering what the rotation was coming in. Hell there number 3 starter isn't even in the pro's right now!
Not every day is going to a perfectly executed game. Leyland and DD know what they are doing.
It is not even June yet so relax, stay away from the sharp objects and neck ties- all is well!
I think Leyland makes Dombrowski look better. Look at the players on that roster and they're 2 games out of first. They only have half a batting order and a bunch of call ups.
Today was a mistake I agree, but its easy to 2nd guess. I also felt he left Verlander in too long the night before.
Not to be rude but are you kidding? We have arguably the best hitter in the AL, another career .310 hitter in ordonez, Johnny Damon, and the 2 best rookies in baseball both batting well over .300. As for pitching we have possibly the best pitcher in the AL, one of the best young pitchers in porcello, and Bonderman who has pitched very well... not to mention one of the best bullpens in baseball.
Combine all that with the fact that we're in a pretty weak division, anything worse than a couple games out would be ridiculous
And I am saying with all due respect, for you to mention porcello is a joke. What has he done this year? His stats are reflective of a 5th starter on an average team (5+ ERA, 1.7 whip). Yes the rookies are hot right now, but you are suggesting that their performance is completely independent of Leyland's managing ability? Young players have always performed for him. Our starters have been near the bottom of the league statistically all year. Our bullpen has been the best, which is a big reason why we are where we are.
You mention Bondo pitching well, he has pitched adequetely (4+ ERA, a couple wins, not a lot of innings). Bondo is what we should have in a 5th starter, not 3rd. What about Dtrain? or Scherzer?
Verlander is a top 5 pitcher in the AL, and has pitched like it recently. I agree with that point.
Look at our lineup after the 5 spot. All those sub .200 hitters mean we can essentially only score runs in half the innings we play. We have a good 1-5 (so far), but if you are suggesting that we are underacheiving b/c of Leyland, you're out of your mind.
The twins are a very good team, we are not too far out of the WC, and we beat up on the AL east when we played them. Our record has nothing to do with a weak division (I admit it is weak though). We have only played the chisox once and the tribe a royals a few games. That is not inflating our record yet.
Seriously, if we had what you would call a good manager, what do you think our record should be right now? I would argue that with the greatest manager of all time, we would only be a couple games ahead of where we are. I think Leyland is doing a fine job to this point in the season. He made a mistake today, get over it. All managers make mistakes. Its funny how different the blind love for rich rod on this board is from the blind love (or lack there of) for Leyland.
Ok first of all 2 of Porcello's last 3 outings have been very good and he pitched great last year. Secondly, you can not try and attribute Jackson's skill to Leyland; he was one of the Yankees best prospects and would have been starting for most teams in the majors. And I think that its a stretch to say that Boesch is only playing well because of Leyland. I guarantee you Boesch's teammates and hitting coaches are working with him more than Leyland is.
I agree that the bottom of our line up is obviously awful, but the front is producing so much that we still overall have one of the better lineups in the AL.
We could argue all day about what Leyland does and does not do and/or who is and who is not good. The point of my post is what could he do with the players he has that he isn't already doing? Tigers are 25-21. Before the season most people were predicting them to finish around .500. Do you really think the players on that roster warrant a record much higher than they already are at? Another poster nailed it that the manager gets too much credit for victory and too much blame for defeat. I just don't know what you want Leyland to do differently, or what your expectations for this team are. They lost a couple tough ones in a row, but they are still overacheiving in my opinion.
Leyland seems like an ok guy in most aspects of managing, but I am beyond tired of his terrible in game managing decisions (another poster listed a few of them that were big factors in us losing the division when it was there for the taking). He also no doubt blew this game today and a few games back one of his decisions led to Avila (.150) batting instead of ordonez (.320) in a clutch 9th inning situation.
I'm not going to change your mind though like you said, but as someone who watches as many games as I can and follows daily, I've seen enough of Leyland.
Ok, please forgive me for this but...
JESUS TAPDANCING CHRIST WE ARE ONE GAME OUT OF 1ST PLACE WITH, GERALD FUCKING LAIRD AS A CATCHER, ADAM EVERETT AT SHORT, THREE EVERYDAY ROOKIE POSITION PLAYERS, TWO PITCHERS (Bondo and Willis) WHO THE PAST TWO YEARS HAVE COMBINED TO MAKE JUST 35 STARTS AND THOSE STARTS WERE GOD FUCKING AWFUL, SCHERZER AS OUR #3 STARTER TO BEGIN THE SEASON IS NOW IN THE MINORS, GALARAGA, A SOPHOMORE SLUMP FROM PORCELLO, AND AN AWFUL APRIL FROM VERLANDER.
ONE FUCKING GAME OUT OF FIRST PLACE WITH ONE LEGIT STARTER AND FOUR AUTOMATIC OUTS AT THE BOTTOM OF THE LINEUP. WE ARE ONE FUCKING GAME OUT OF FIRST PLACE AND YOU HAVE THE UNMITIGATED GALL TO QUESTION THE ABILITY OF THE FUCKING MANAGER? SERIOUSLY? WHAT THE FUCK? RAGE!
Ok, I got that out of my system. I'm fine now.
Well if you actually watched the games you would notice the abundant terrible in game decisions that Leyland makes and also know that he was a HUGE factor in last year's epic collapse.
And for the love of god please stop acting like this is a team full of scrubs. We will probably have 4-5 players in the all star game, have arguably the best pitcher AND hitter in the AL, and we have the 2 best rookies in all of baseball right now. Give me a break
PLEASE, FOR THE LOVE OF BASEBALL AND ALL THAT IS RIGHT IN THE WORLD, STOP.
ignorance is bliss i guess
Indeed.
I know that this comment above would be popularly labeled "irony" but is it an actual ironic statement? Just curious.
i think you're actually looking for the "vocabulary nazis".
4-5 All Stars?
Verlander, Cabrera, Valverde.
That's it. Don't you dare say Jackson.
As of this very moment, I wouldn't be one bit surprised if he was a manager's pick. And I say this as somebody who has been calling for Jackson to hit the wall for quite some time. That being said, I expect him to hit the wall and not make the ASG.
If he bats .270 the next month, I'd be thrilled with his production. It would also be somewhat expected. That would probably drop him down to the .290 range. With his K's and above-average-but-not-all-star-quality defense, I don't see much of a reason for Girardi to take him when you will certainly have many other options.
It'd be great if I was wrong, but baseball has a way of leveling players out.
Hate on Dombrowski all you want, but any GM who can lock up one of the five best hitters and pitchers in the game for below market price is at least above average IMO. When Pujols pulls in 30 mil this offseason and we're still paying a younger Cab 10 mil less than that for the next five years, that's a pretty fucking great thing.
He also locked up a lot of terrible players for well above market price. He has made some terrible trades too. I don't hate on him too much, but when people start talking like Leyland is screwing up some brilliant roster that Dombrowski the GM god created, it gets a little ridiculous.
The Inge/Robertson signings especially. I realize Inge is a fan favorite, but he's worth nowhere near what they are paying him. Most would say the Willis deal too but there's no way anyone would have anticipated how much he's struggled.
FIRE JIM LEYLAND!
THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE!!!!!!!!!!1!!!!!1
How many wins do you think he needs this week to keep his job?
@ least 7, so I'd say he's safe.