I like my beer cold and my homosexuals FLAMING.
OT- Jim Harbaugh Slur
Its in the heat of a game, I would actually be surprised if Bo didnt yell worse things towards refs. Not that big of a deal for me.
because omgz if bo said it, no problems there!
i'm sure if bo called someone a similarly derogatory term for African Americans you'd be on board too?
sorry but that's a deal changer to many of us. dui (x2), mouthing off about UM, spending tens of thousands of dollars on a fucking bathroom and now this? harbaugh's off my christmahanukwanzaakah card list.
Bo wouldn't say that, but that's not the point. Point is, that it's not okay to say that, no matter who does it. Even if Bo said it, it'd still be wrong.
and i agree with you. i was positing that people think behaviors are acceptable because of whose mouth they come out of, which is completely wrong.
saying faggot in the heat of a game is that big of a deal to you or a "deal changer" then you might as well get rid of >90% of college football players. Faggot is a widely used word in sports culture to signify weakness and a lack of manliness. It's used at all levels. Football players and coaches are not pc. If this is new to you then I hope your World doesn't come crashing down.
it's not going to "cause my World to crash down." it, however, proves to me that Harbaugh isn't aware of how to be a role model. anyone who uses racist or bigoted terms, in anger or otherwise, is not someone i would consider a decent man, let alone a man i would send my son to play football under as a mentee
I don't know what a mentee is. If you sent your son anywhere to play football then he would be exposed to racism and bigotry by other teammates. Black players call one another nigga all the time. Then you add all of the other players that use faggot and every other gay reference possible to demean someone. I'm not saying it's the right thing but it is what it is.
a mentee is the individual being mentored. and if you're claiming everyone who goes through college football learns that homophobic slurs, that's absurd. the place of a football coach is to help players see how to be a proper member of society. your argument seems to hinge on the fact football is some fishbowl microcosm and that's ridiculous. if i ever heard a coach or member of the Michigan administration use any sort of language that seemed to encourage bigotry in any way i would want them gone immediately.
you really are just coming across as trying to excuse hateful language because "everyone in football does it" or that you find it okay to discriminate in such a way.
I think you stopped reading my post after the first sentence. In my last post I did not speak about coaches whatsoever. The players are the ones who bring about the majority of these things. It may be immaturity or just how they are, i don't know. What I do know is that if I came across as someone who is fine with these things then I misused my words. However, I do accept that that is the culture of the players and some coaches (Harbaugh is an ex player).
i'm aware people do it but i don't think it has any place in the vocabulary of a coach that is placed in a special and unique role by parents to raise their children from boys into quality men. any man who uses this word would struggle to convince many open minded parents that they are a positive influence point (should the parents be looking for that versus getting their kids into a bowl game/MNC)
Ok. Forget about the coach. Players will be subject to these things by their teammates. It is used by strength coaches too. While lifting you say things to motivate such as, "get this last rep you fuckin bitch/faggot/queer/etc. These words are used to demean, encourage and motivate. To take these words out of sports would totally change the culture.
it is suddenly acceptable to use derogatory words that cast a group in our society because it encourages our athletes to not be compared to them. it's not enough to call them a "sissy, weakling, that they don't want it enough, they should quit, etc." you have to call someone a queer to get them for their last rep. to claim sports culture survives and works only because of such terms is absurd and reinforces the fact you support the use of it.
That is how it is. If you can't accept it then that is fine. I went through it and know how shitty it is at times. Furthermore, you have shown that you have no idea of what goes on behind closed doors and locker room behavior. If it really upsets you so much then start a petition or something. I am sure whatever you do will have no effect on how things go. I am not in favor of it because it discourages gay athletes to come out because of the ridicule they will face or think they will face by their teammates. I'm not sure there is any real way to break this cycle. If you can think of one I am all ears.
i am aware of it going on at all levels of sports. the only way to "break the cycle" is to be outspoken about how such behavior has no place in society, sports or otherwise. by speaking my mind i'm doing the only thing that i know can have an effect and that is to make those who think in a bigoted manner know their short-sighted mentality is the minority viewpoint.
Nevermind. I just read the rest of the comments on here and you seemed fine using such words as, "Hillbilly", "White Trash", and "Hick". You lose.
it was at ref anyway.
I was listening to Ivan Maisel on ESPN's college football podcast, and his description of Harbaugh was something along the lines of "he lacks the governor between what he thinks and what he says". This seems like the latest and greatest example. I'm surprised this hasn't gotten more negative attention.
Probably because it's based on lip-reading. F----t looks a lot like F--- it.
no way in hell he said eff it. no chance. he's yelling directly at someone... not to mention that doesn't stream in any way sensibly.
The point is that it's lip-reading! There's no audio. It's inconclusive. It's 2 syllables, starts with F and ends with T. He's shouting obscenities, so there's no argument for being sensible.
All I'm saying is that this should not get national attention from the sports world, unless they have a professional lip-reader say that, without a doubt, he used that word. They can't just go off of the You-Tube captions.
i have a PhD and Masters in YouTube video lip reading from Cal Poly Tech of Art & Design.
That is one of my favorite words. I see no problem in using it during the heat of a football game.
of the three?
We are talking about asshole, right?
we're talking about a term that rhymes with maggot. used by SEC hillbillies in regards to our more sharply dressed friends.
I love it that someone negged you for this. "Hrrhm, he's insulting people who use gay slurs! I am outraged!."
You slam someone re. use of a slur, then you label another group of people SEC hillbillies? Granted, hillbillies isn't a horrible term, but it's clearly derogatory. Not trying to make a mountain out of a molehill, but still.
actually i was referring to personal experience, more specifically my current one. down south if a hick at a bar such as Cooter Browns doesn't like you or your group, he will label the better dressed guy "that term" and the others his bitch, etc. i'm horribly aware of the ability of people in Delton, Ypsi, Big Rapids, Mason and other places to make the same comment.
all southerners use slurs because Geaux_Blue says so and backs it up with personal anecdotes...
if you are going to criticize a guy for calling another guy a fag when he's pissed off.. don't go out and do something worse.. at least harbaugh can say he was pissed off.. what about you?
are all Southerners hillbillies? god, i was referring to white trash. you're failing, however, to link me to declaring the South at large as racist. unless you're claiming all Southerners are hillbillies. shame on you.
This whole thread seems a bit overwrought, but I have to interject: your apparently serious use of the phrase "white trash" caught my eye because it came immediate after a post in which you said:
"...anyone who uses racist or bigoted terms, in anger or otherwise, is not someone i would consider a decent man, let alone a man i would send my son to play football under as a mentee"
If you were using white trash humorously, then that's a different matter, but it didn't read that way to me.
even if it was comedy, he needs to understand that the knife cuts both ways..
If it's ok to use slurs against a certain group of white people, then it's ok to use slurs against certain groups of members of other races.
He's a hypocrite
you live in a special world to think that calling bigots "white trash" is racist.
white trash is a collective term to describe the dredges of white culture that believe bigotry and racism are acceptable. it's not based in socio-economic status but instead on how someone carries themselves and speaks. i have no problem calling someone trash that thinks using offensive language to degrade other individuals based upon their gender, race or sexual orientation.
"White trash is an American English pejorative term referring to individual or groups of lower social class Caucasian people that the speaker considers to lack social status. It is most frequently used as a slur to describe financially, economically or culturally disadvantaged Caucasians."
Almost everyone who uses slurs and MEANS to use them follow them up with an explanation.. this is yours..
In any case.. from hillbilly, to hick, to white trash in a thread criticizing another man's supposed use of a slur based on lip reading when he was clearly pissed off..
The funny part is that I don't really care about the language you might or might not use.. unlike you, my skin isn't paper thin when it comes to people using offensive language.. It's just that if you're going to get all PC on a guy.. don't follow it up by using slurs yourself! Sort of silly isn't it?
You might prescribe whatever the hell you want to the word "white trash" it still means what it does.. maybe in Harbaugh's mind fag means crappy ref.. would that make it ok for you?
because any of the words i've used have a historical offensive connotation meant to rob a race of their dignity and subordinate them to another group. unbelievable.
while i may have been casual with my words to describe a minor fraction of Southern people, i am very specific of my target - that being those in various areas of the country who believe derogatory terms and biased thought based upon color and sexual orientation is acceptable. that's it.
You still don't understand that in the "PC" world.. it doesn't matter if the person you use the slur against deserves it or not! That's like calling illegal immigrants by the various slurs that exist for them because.. duuuh? they're here illegally!
White trash is offensive.. even if you don't see it, it insults people based on their economic and social status. It IS a slur.. and YOU used it.
that's all, I'm out..
You may have had a specific target in mind, but you used a broad and incontrovertibly bigoted term. You're not doing yourself any favors by trying to defend that choice of words while you're trying to condemn the use of another bigoted term.
I vote for replying to this thread until you can only fit one word in a line. We are so close!
It's anyway. So close.
I can feel
it coming in the air
tonight, oh lord
I love it when you can only fit in 2 word and people still respond with novels.
This truly is one of the most epic things that has ever happened. Now if we can just get K06em01 to go an entire day without posting a single topic...
oh i already accepted the whammy for using terms that people interpret more broadly than i do. however, i don't think white trash is limited to the poor by any means. in fact, the most white trash people i see on a daily basis are often the most wealthy. you've been fair in your criticism and i appreciate it.
don't just come from the South, son.
yeah i agree with everyone, certainly could have picked his words better, but it was the heat of the moment. I've certainly said worse things in races.. hell I've probably said worse things to my mom watching Michigan games
that ref looked and acted waaayy gay. Nathan Lane called and said he needed to butch up...yeah, he's got my number. What of it?
What made him think the ref was an inconsiderate Harley rider?
In all seriousness, I've been a big proponent of Harbaugh on these boards, but this was terrible. And people making excuses for it should be ashamed. It's a fucking slur, you don't get a "heat of the moment" exemption.
That one literally made me "LOL". I love South Park.
Serious reaction to this- do we REALLY need any more reasons not to want Harbaugh here?
1) DUI issues
2) Trashing Michigan's academics/academic policies
3) Uses homosexual slurs
The guy has one good season at Stanford and all of a sudden he's this can't-miss coaching prospect. Well, frankly, he's a huge asshole.
I am more surprised that Harbaugh hasn't (yet at least) run into any sort of probs with the campus milieu if he in fact used that language. One can imagine the foment on a highly liberal west coast campus and "heat of the moment" would not resonate reasonably.
I've enjoyed reading the back and forth here but an earlier poster made a pretty interesting point in noting he trashed U of M and basically cut his ties with the AD with the AD while throwing his team mates under the bus (right Jamie Morris?), he has one a very limited record at Stanford, apparently has alleged NFL aspirations and, bluntly, seems to not have a filter between his thinking and his mouth. Well, can't much see him coming here...
Thus my thinking has moved to "I only like to talk about coaches that are likely to be coaching at Michigan".
Best wishes all of you
What's his deal?
a gay guy probably used his bathroom once
would explain this.
what's YOUR deal?
I don't get Harbaugh or the hype following him. This is the same guy who thanked Jesus in post game interviews back when he was "Captain Comeback" for the Colts. Like my dad always says: "You can be intense without losing your head."
What does thanking Jesus have to do with any of this?
but I cringe when I hear anyone thank a deity for a W. It would take a decidedly Old Testament, petty micro-manager style of a god to reach down and trip a blitzing LB or nudge a ball carrier into the endzone.
I feel like most athletes that are thanking God (or Allah or whoever) after a win do so in gratefulness for the blessing of talent they feel they have received from said deity, not so much the nuances of each play of the game. Makes it a little less cringe-worthy.
I'm not a big Harbaugh fan, but honestly, I'd bet most football coaches around the country (at any level) have used that word (not to mention lots of incredibly sexist terms). If you haven't noticed, jock culture tends not to be open-minded on these matters.
While I certainly don't condone using such slurs, if this was a one-time occurrence/slip-up, I wouldn't read too much into it. But based on the way Harbaugh has spoken to the media and bad-mouthed other coaches, coupled with some off-the-field issues (like a DUI), you get a sense that he might be one of those ticking time-bomb-type coaches, the type of guy like Gillespie at Kentucky who looks great on paper but has enough demons that it derails his program at some point.
I think he is a decent coach, but as I noted in an earlier post, Ty Willingham had an eerily-similar record at Stanford and, as we've all seen, flamed out at ND and Washington. I wish Harbaugh the best, but those clamoring for him after one good season is a little premature.
I could not have said that much better. I guess after the fire RichRod thing ran out of steam on the board the whole Harbaugh lovefest started.
One good season...if, by good, you mean an invite to the Emerald Bowl...
He will say something really horrible at a press conference one time, then have to issue a statement and everyone will freak out. Listen coaches say bad stuff, but an attack on someone, and calling people faggots is not cool. He might be a great coach, who knows. But going on 30 years now, the guy can't keep his mouth shut. At Michigan he ran his mouth non stop, but it was cool because he was "our" guy. In the NFL I don't think anyone could stand the guy.
I think it is only a matter of time before, he goes overboard and people get offended. It might be sports culture to yell faggot at people, but do it on tape or have someone say oh he called me a faggot and you have a Defcon 1 situation with the media.
i just think it's incredibly odd that Jim Harbaugh still posts on MGoBlog
well at Notre Dame.
Could you imagine the media sh*t shorm that would have erupted if this were RR and not the saintly Harbaugh in this video? Erosion of family values! Hate mingering! Destruction of the fabric of our culture! Say what you want about RR, but he doesn't run his mouth and embarass himself and our university by acting like an ass. (He embarasses us the old fashioned way, by losing 75% of his games - ZING! - /sarcasm)
so, again, you're telling me that anything he says during the game is acceptable and saved from judgment? that's like claiming things said and done by a drunk don't speak to their character. unfortunately for harbaugh and his car insurance agent, those things are not true.
That's not specifically true. You can swear your ass off and not be a bigot. It's bigotry if you say the word faggot, unless you're in a Dickens novel and are referring to sticks of wood. I don't know if "faggot" is what Jim said, but it sure looks like it.
Well, that's what the whole controversy is about. If it wasn't for the possible use of the word "faggot," no one would be talking about this.
You actually thought that this was because Harbaugh lost his temper at a ref? Do you also think that people were mad at Michael Richards because he shouldn't have raised his voice to a comedy club patron?
That's the dumbest comparison. I'll say all sorts of horribly offensive things to my friends, in private -- they know what I mean, and what I don't. That doesn't mean I would scream those same insults at someone in public, much less on national TV. One is acceptable, one is not. In the "real world," most people understand this.
It's not bigotry if you don't wholeheartedly mean the insult.. in all other cases, it can be chalked up to ignorance
in this case.. Harbaugh probably didn't mean it..
and jeebus christ.. you guys sound like my grandmother
that is absurd. coaches get a pass for being 'passionate' but if, in the middle of a 300 level class, a student debating with another about Chinese quantum physics said "you forgot the 18th century economic collapse of the northern farm region you (insert racist/biggoted term)" that would be unacceptable? or would it be acceptable since some great minds were racist.
it's really ridiculous when people put coaches and players on another level than the rest of society bc they make a brown ball go across fields.
also, until someone can come forward claiming Bo used the same derogatory term, i would suggest not bringing him into it.
You cannot seriously be comparing the level of stress/pressure felt by one who is coaching a big college football game with that felt by one in an academic debate. I'd say it's more at the level of a guy fighting with another guy over a girl. What do guys say to each other in that context?
For better or worse, "fag/faggot" is still a common sports insult. It's still very much the kind of thing a football coach would utter when he's pissed off. I'm not saying that you have no right to take offense when you hear it; I don't blame you at all. But to single Harbaugh out for this is missing the forest for the trees. He's a product of an entire culture that acts this way. I'd be stunned to learn that Bo never said this.
I'd be stunned to learn that Bo never said this.
I'd be stunned to learn that Bo never used the word "negro." We're in different times, and terms that were once acceptable no longer are.
I would be stunned to learn that Lloyd Carr ever used the word "faggot" in front of his players.
I agree. I actually can't see Lloyd saying that. But Lloyd was a bit of an odd duck in the coaching profession. There aren't too many college football coaches out there who are former high school English teachers, hold liberal Democratic political views, and seldom use profanity around players.
post-game handshake ever, he just wants to put on a helmet and hit the other coach after the game is over
Fucking asshole fuckheads. I know that doesn't make sense but people tend to not make sense when they are angry. Either way, it's wrong, but it looked to me like he said fuckheads, not faggots.
I agree, it doesn't look like he said "faggots". Had not someone put the words in a bubble, I would never have remotely thought he used that slur. Was the person who filled in the bubble near him? at the other end of the headset? I dont give a shit about Harbaugh, but this is akin to photoshopping a picture to make someone look bad.
And seriously, what are the chances of a gay ref in California anyway?
i agree and am really surprised i had to scroll down this far to find 1 person who didn't think he said faggot. it actually seemed clear to me that he didn't say it, everyone calm down.
Listening to Harbaugh fires me up; makes me feel like I can run through a brick wall.
Harbaugh has been getting slammed on these boards mercilessly over the last few weeks. Suddenly he uses the word "faggot" and people are rushing to his defense.
sadly people find this form of bigotry to be inherently different than similarly insulting terms that might be used against individuals of different races. i really didn't expect, however, to see this sort of defense on a UM board.
This is called
Making a mountain
out of a molehill
Pseudo-haiku makes me a sad panda.
Edit: Can I call it fauxku?
Also, I don't like Harbaugh's use of the word "faggot", but I think other posters have covered the issue pretty well already.
why not ask for some firewood to keep warm?
Not everybody need to dress like Tressel.
You people need to let this go.
He's a football coach. Even if he did say what you are accusing him of (which is far from a slam dunk), I've been called that by every football coach I've ever had.
I'm not saying that coaches should talk like that, but if you wanted to hire a coach who never used that word or a comparable one you'd rule out nearly every guy who's ever watched football, let alone played or coached it.
And I should care why, exactly?
Not like he's coming to Michigan, anyway.
As an aside, *if* Harbaugh used a slur of that sort then I would wonder less if he is a bigot and more about his limited understanding of who he is working for at Stanford and what ideals and expectations he is supposed to represent. It's a liberal school on the west coast...do the math.
So where does this fit in with Michigan? Regarding Harbaugh, a decent coach but nothing more...A reasoned analysis would relate to questions about his inability to demonstrate the required sort of judgment, integrity and class required of the head football coach at the University of Michigan. Language is about choices informed by many factors...but to cop out to emotion or so called "heat of the moment" is just weak. This is Michigan and we would and should expect more.
The Miami hockey team seems willing and able to do things differently:
When I was in graduate school at UCLA, I made a number of jokes that I had learned growing up were funny. One woman in particular just looked at me with a straight face and said, "That's not funny." Caused me to rethink my whole idea of what was funny.
Just because it's how we've always done it doesn't mean a) it's right or b) there's not a better way. Excusing it or justifying it just allows it to continue.
But there is a chance you said something that is funny and the woman in question just has a crappy sense of humor. Just because someone is/acts offended doesn't mean they are right.
For those of you arguing "heat of the moment," (Followed up with excusing drunks) I actually think that works in reverse. When your in a state like that your PC monitor goes out the window, and you say what you want to say. But, that has more meaning for thoughts expressed in this state, not single words. Even if he did say it, which no one can infer from the video, it was probably more about him looking for insults to spew than a hate for homosexuals.
I understand that what Harbaugh said is still up for debate, but in general:
The fact that homophobia is the most acceptable form of bigotry in this era, particularly among young men, does not make it any less deplorable.
A coach is held to a higher standard of behavior. He is an ambassador as well as a teacher. The fact that his colleagues and players may use slurs is all the more reason for him to find the courage to call it out for what it is and reprimand it.
Real leadership has a moral dimension to it. Truman desegregated an armed forces that was not ready for it. There were grumbles, and growing pains, and even today there is undoubtedly some prejudice in the ranks. What is noteworthy is that you'll never, ever hear Petraeus or Colin Powell condone or apologize for that sentiment. That's progress.
Just as an addendum to your very well-written post: there are, most likely, gay players in the locker room at Stanford. And Michigan. And just about every college and pro team out there. Why haven't (m)any of them come out? In part, no doubt, because homophobic language (and perhaps homophobia itself) are so deeply ingrained in "jock culture."
The smattering of gay players who have come out have made it clear that they were not alone. I'd rather be a fan of a team, coach and/or institution that welcomes these players (out or not) as students and athletes just like any others, rather than one that doesn't.
Using that term is never acceptable. To argue otherwise, you must defend the CONTENT of the speech. Examples of completely non-responsive, fail arguments:
- this is a common occurrence
- but Bo said it!
- it was the heat of the moment
- maybe it was a one-time occurrence
No. If you said any of these things, you fail. By this standard, context can justify ANY speech. Substitute the N word for the word "faggot." Are you still using the above arguments? Probably not.
End result: "it's OK to use hate speech against gays." That's your argument.
That's not my argument. I just think that this whole thing is stupid because it's based off lip reading of Youtube video instead of actual audio.
why are you responding to my post? My comments are directed at people that have excused his alleged use of the word, not those that argue the allegations are false....
I'm not arguing for the use of that term at all. I just think that the people stating that he definitely used it should be included in the fail. Sorry.
Just wanted to end this thread with this:
The person who put up the youtube video has also changed the title.